Rear drums leaking or just dirty?

[fourfive]

Is not too out of the realm of possibilities that someone removed the brake shoes and gravity pushed a piston out of the wheel cylinder which would let brake fluid collect in between the dust seal and the dry side of the piston.

Something similar to what you described happened to my brake cylinders when I was changing my brake shoes last year. Before removing the brake shoes my wheel cylinders functioned normally & no evidence of leaking. While installing the new shoes I wasn't able to adjust the brakes to make the diameter smaller to get the drum back on. When I was looking everything over I noticed a small seepage of brake fluid from the wheel cylinder. I wasn't sure what happened at the time but based on your description I'm guessing the piston got pushed out of the cylinder somehow preventing me from properly getting the brake shoe installed.

I have a clamp I use to keep the pistons from pushing out of the wheel cylinder while I have the shoes removed.

Do you just put something like a small C-clamp on both ends of the wheel cylinder?

 

[TejasRunner01]

Hey everyone,

Rear drums had been working well; however, now that is has gotten a little colder outside (only 50F), my rear drums are beginning to stick again. I want to stress that this problem is associated with COOL weather, I dont have this issue in the Summer usually. At this point I've cleaned and lubed everything as well as replaced both wheel cylinders. Here is the scenario:

It is the morning, truck has been parked overnight. Parking brake is down. I attempt to move forward, however the rear drum brakes are locking up. The only way to fix this is to reverse a few inches, then move forward and try again. Sometimes this works the first time, sometimes I have to try it again. It seems like once I get going, it will be fine, sometimes not.

Is this more likely to be a cable issue even though I'm not using the parking brake or is it the drums and pads are sticking due to being compromised and I just need to replace them?

Thanks!!

Sent from my Mi MIX 2S using Tapatalk

 

[Kanoe]

Hey everyone,

Rear drums had been working well; however, now that is has gotten a little colder outside (only 50F), my rear drums are beginning to stick again. I want to stress that this problem is associated with COOL weather, I dont have this issue in the Summer usually. At this point I've cleaned and lubed everything as well as replaced both wheel cylinders. Here is the scenario:

It is the morning, truck has been parked overnight. Parking brake is down. I attempt to move forward, however the rear drum brakes are locking up. The only way to fix this is to reverse a few inches, then move forward and try again. Sometimes this works the first time, sometimes I have to try it again. It seems like once I get going, it will be fine, sometimes not.

Is this more likely to be a cable issue even though I'm not using the parking brake or is it the drums and pads are sticking due to being compromised and I just need to replace them?

Thanks!!

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It won't be a cable issue if you don't even use the parking brake.

Have you checked those ABS sensors for leaking yet? Don't throw any new brake components in there until you do. If I was there I would do it for you, 5 minutes per side.

 

[Wedgy]

It won't be a cable issue if you don't even use the parking brake.

Have you checked those ABS sensors for leaking yet? Don't throw any new brake components in there until you do. If I was there I would do it for you, 5 minutes per side.

Great advice because you will just ruin the new shoes if the seals are leaking. I think it's a 10mm bolt holding the ABS sensor in and the sensor is magnetic so it feels a little harder to pull out than it really is. Shine a flashlight in and see if there is oil on the ABS ring(looks like a gear).

 

[TejasRunner01]

I'm guessing this is one of those "uh-oh" moments..

For what it is worth, my drums are still dry, just that fibrous material is occuring. I'm thinking since everything in the drum is clean, I could just replace the inner axle seal and shoes. My bearings are still really tight and holding strong when trying to wiggle.

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[Bad Luck]

[MENTION=151941]TejasRunner01[/MENTION] You definitely need axle seals. If you have access to a press there is a loaner tool set available from weekendclimber on here. As far as wheel bearings go it's a gamble not replacing them. When the gear oil gets past the inner axle seal it makes its way through the wheel bearing before seeping out into your drums. This process removes the grease from the wheel bearing causing premature wheel bearing failure once the oil stops leaking past the seal and lubricating the wheel bearing. From what I've read about half the people that don't replace them end up having to replace the wheel bearings within a year or less. Which means you'll have to pull the axles out again and press everything off again to replace the wheel bearings.

 

[Presticlese]

Very informative! Thank you. I'll definitely follow that line of attack if I continue to have problems. I did not realize what the fibrous brake dust meant, now I do! I used brake cleaner on the shoes but I did not sand them.. I only lightly sanded the drums. Again, I'll post back if I have issues.


Also thank you for the picture of what a axle seal leak looks like! I definitely don't think I am having that issue .

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As a tech I advise u against reusing pads that have been contaminated. They do not dry out and will continue to hold fluid, sanding helps get the glassing effect from heat off but when the pads continue to wear the compromised part or the pad holding fluid, oil etc will make contact with drum and since the heat buildup is incredible (with no way to vent that heat) you can warp a drum instantly if the shoe is still damp but in the end you will have COMPROMISED BRAKES! don’t let ur life or someone else’s be the cost of 35$ set of shoes. If no one dies the lawsuit will make u wish u did die and just payed for new shoes..:

 

[Presticlese]

[MENTION=151941]TejasRunner01[/MENTION] You definitely need axle seals. If you have access to a press there is a loaner tool set available from weekendclimber on here. As far as wheel bearings go it's a gamble not replacing them. When the gear oil gets past the inner axle seal it makes its way through the wheel bearing before seeping out into your drums. This process removes the grease from the wheel bearing causing premature wheel bearing failure once the oil stops leaking past the seal and lubricating the wheel bearing. From what I've read about half the people that don't replace them end up having to replace the wheel bearings within a year or less. Which means you'll have to pull the axles out again and press everything off again to replace the wheel bearings.

Yes and no, u can have gear oil spraying on the side wall of the tire, this means u have a compromised seal but if u don’t have gear oil in the actual drum brake assembly itself the bearing is fine and it means it hasn’t compromised the bearing hence the absence of oil in th the brake assembly

 

[pluton]

Yes and no, u can have gear oil spraying on the side wall of the tire, this means u have a compromised seal but if u don’t have gear oil in the actual drum brake assembly itself the bearing is fine and it means it hasn’t compromised the bearing hence the absence of oil in th the brake assembly

Seems like if the gear oil has gotten as far as the wheel, tire, brakes, ABS sensor---it has already passed through the bearing, right?

 

[Bad Luck]

Yes and no, u can have gear oil spraying on the side wall of the tire, this means u have a compromised seal but if u don’t have gear oil in the actual drum brake assembly itself the bearing is fine and it means it hasn’t compromised the bearing hence the absence of oil in th the brake assembly

In order for the gear oil to reach the side wall of the tire it must pass through the inner axle seal, wheel bearing, outer axle seal (it's more of a dust boot between the backing plate and axle face where the wheel mounts), onto the drum, then onto the wheel.

 

[TejasRunner01]

Thanks for everyone's replies. I would like to remind everyone, I don't have any oil on the side walls or in the drums. Thus it hasn't actually passed through the outter seal and bearing, only the inner seal at this point. All of this started due to having sticking rear drums in cool weather. I think I can safely say that can be solved by replacing the pads and resurfacing drums. Now the question is.. will just replacing the shoes, drums and inner seal do the trick.

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[Bad Luck]

Thanks for everyone's replies. I would like to remind everyone, I don't have any oil on the side walls or in the drums. Thus it hasn't actually passed through the outter seal and bearing, only the inner seal at this point. All of this started due to having sticking rear drums in cool weather. I think I can safely say that can be solved by replacing the pads and resurfacing drums. Now the question is.. will just replacing the shoes, drums and inner seal do the trick.

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Where the oil is pooling past the inner axle seal your wheel bearing is sitting in the gear oil as well washing the grease out.

To answer your question, replacing the inner axle seal and verifying the seal is in the correct area on the axle retainer with either a grease test or sharpie test will fix the leak. Brake shoes will need to be replaced due to oil contamination. You can try cleaning any oil from the inside of the drum first if you don't want to resurface them. A new axle retainer is recommended so the new inner axle seal has a new smooth surface to seal against is recommended.

 

[mtbtim]

Thanks for everyone's replies. I would like to remind everyone, I don't have any oil on the side walls or in the drums. Thus it hasn't actually passed through the outter seal and bearing, only the inner seal at this point. All of this started due to having sticking rear drums in cool weather. I think I can safely say that can be solved by replacing the pads and resurfacing drums. Now the question is.. will just replacing the shoes, drums and inner seal do the trick.

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Some people have gotten away with just replacing the inner axle seal and I would have to say that's more of a situation of dumb luck. This topic has been covered ad nauseam on this forum but I'll explain the situation right here for you. The axle seal has been redesigned by Toyota some time in the past. The seal lip now sits apprx. 2mm more inboard. Just replacing the seal and not addressing the position of the inner retainer on the axle will give you a poor mating. The seal lip will be barely riding on the polished shoulder of the retainer.

At the very least, remove the inner retainer and ABS tone ring. Pull these parts off with the appropriate tool and don't cut them off because it's a big waste of money cutting them off and you also run the risk of cutting too deep and scoring your axle shafts. Now, put them back on with the inner retainer flipped (bevel facing the ABS tone ring) with apprx. 5mm of polished axle showing above the retainer. Now do the grease or sharpie test to confirm you have a good mating of the axle seal and inner retainer. You're looking to get the seal lip riding dead center on the 10mm polished shoulder of the retainer but it doesn't need to be perfect. You just don't want the seal lip riding close to either end of the retainer and you don't want it riding on the bevel. If you need to make adjustments to the inner retainer position, do so by driving it on further or pulling it back a little with your axle tool.

The only way to guarantee you won't be going back in to do this job sooner than you hoped is to just go ahead and replace the bearings. You might get away with repacking the bearings and then again you might not. Excessive bearing play has an effect on the longevity of that axle seal. The more axle play, the more strain on the seal. I guess you have to figure if a little extra time and money saved up front is worth you potentially have to redo this job again. My advice is to replace the bearings and other associated parts and be done with it. You can save money by reusing both retainers and ABS tone ring on each axle. Reusing those 4 retainers and 2 ABS tone rings will save you around $150 with online pricing.

Watch the videos below to learn more. The first video covers most of what you need to learn and be sure to read the video description and comment I pinned. The second video introduces a new tool that I highly recommend people purchase over the Durasolid tool we used in the first video.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AVhSDnw2ugo" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/R-c2x3F8DU4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[TejasRunner01]

The mistake many make is replacing the bearings. If the seal leaks, the bearings will be floating in gear oil and well lubricated. Its when you fix the seal and the oil stops flowing that the bearing fails from being dry. Knowing what I know now, I would have just removed the bearing side cover and washed out the gear oil with brake cleaner, drain out the oil on the outer side of the bearing (drill a 1/8” hole in the dust seal and plug it when drained) and repacked the bearings with lithium grease before reassembling the axle with the reversed inner retainer. The cost would be about $25 a side. New seal, new retainer, lithium grease.

*Cut the old retainer off and heat the new retainer to install.

Hey [MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION],

In the quoted method above, how are you repacking the bearing if they are sealed? I'm just trying to figure out from which side you are accessing to repack the lithium grease.

Also just confirming, you are saying to drill a hole in the dust shield in the drum area to drain any possible oil that resides inside?

Thanks!



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[TejasRunner01]

Some people have gotten away with just replacing the inner axle seal and I would have to say that's more of a situation of dumb luck. This topic has been covered ad nauseam on this forum but I'll explain the situation right here for you. The axle seal has been redesigned by Toyota some time in the past. The seal lip now sits apprx. 2mm more inboard. Just replacing the seal and not addressing the position of the inner retainer on the axle will give you a poor mating. The seal lip will be barely riding on the polished shoulder of the retainer.



At the very least, remove the inner retainer and ABS tone ring. Pull these parts off with the appropriate tool and don't cut them off because it's a big waste of money cutting them off and you also run the risk of cutting too deep and scoring your axle shafts. Now, put them back on with the inner retainer flipped (bevel facing the ABS tone ring) with apprx. 5mm of polished axle showing above the retainer. Now do the grease or sharpie test to confirm you have a good mating of the axle seal and inner retainer. You're looking to get the seal lip riding dead center on the 10mm polished shoulder of the retainer but it doesn't need to be perfect. You just don't want the seal lip riding close to either end of the retainer and you don't want it riding on the bevel. If you need to make adjustments to the inner retainer position, do so by driving it on further or pulling it back a little with your axle tool.



The only way to guarantee you won't be going back in to do this job sooner than you hoped is to just go ahead and replace the bearings. You might get away with repacking the bearings and then again you might not. Excessive bearing play has an effect on the longevity of that axle seal. The more axle play, the more strain on the seal. I guess you have to figure if a little extra time and money saved up front is worth you potentially have to redo this job again. My advice is to replace the bearings and other associated parts and be done with it. You can save money by reusing both retainers and ABS tone ring on each axle. Reusing those 4 retainers and 2 ABS tone rings will save you around $150 with online pricing.



Watch the videos below to learn more. The first video covers most of what you need to learn and be sure to read the video description and comment I pinned. The second video introduces a new tool that I highly recommend people purchase over the Durasolid tool we used in the first video.



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AVhSDnw2ugo" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/R-c2x3F8DU4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Hey [MENTION=120071]mtbtim[/MENTION],

Love your vids man. Was watching them today, I feel fairly confident in this repair after watching your videos plus reading all of Dr. Coffee's post. I guess it comes down to how much it will cost to get all of these tool investments cost vs having a machine shop help press these to the correct spacing and dimension. If repacking the bearing was an option, I certainly wouldn't mind flipping the inner retainer, new inner seal and repacking the bearing. I just am fuzzy on how to repack a sealed bearing?

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[Riceye]

I just am fuzzy on how to repack a sealed bearing?

The seal on either side of the bearing is just an interference fit. It can be popped out using a very small screwdriver, dental-type pick or even a thin knife blade. The important detail is not harming the seal when doing this. Pop out via the outer (larger) edge, as this edge does not rotate about the outer race when assembled. The inner (smaller) edge does rotate about the inner race and must not be scarred or you'll need to replace the bearing.

After thoroughly cleaning out the bearing with aerosol parts cleaner (with the little plastic tube), the bearing innards need to be dried completely before re-packing with a high quality wheel bearing grease. Then the seal simply pops back into place. Best to rotate the bearing and press the seal edge repeatedly to ensure its proper placement.

Here's a pretty good video describing the process. Clean the innards out well and dry, don't just re-pack. The gear lube is a contaminant at this point.
Lubricating sealed bearings

 

[TejasRunner01]

The seal on either side of the bearing is just an interference fit. It can be popped out using a very small screwdriver, dental-type pick or even a thin knife blade. The important detail is not harming the seal when doing this. Pop out via the outer (larger) edge, as this edge does not rotate about the outer race when assembled. The inner (smaller) edge does rotate about the inner race and must not be scarred or you'll need to replace the bearing.

After thoroughly cleaning out the bearing with aerosol parts cleaner (with the little plastic tube), the bearing innards need to be dried completely before re-packing with a high quality wheel bearing grease. Then the seal simply pops back into place. Best to rotate the bearing and press the seal edge repeatedly to ensure its proper placement.

Here's a pretty good video describing the process. Clean the innards out well and dry, don't just re-pack. The gear lube is a contaminant at this point.
Lubricating sealed bearings

[MENTION=92690]Riceye[/MENTION] Thank you for this nice explanation, I didn't know what the bearing side cover meant. Your video was very helpful. So which side of bearing side plate are you accessing this from. The inner side closest to the retainers or the outer side through the dust cover somehow? I guess from pictures you could access this from the inner side as the bearing side cover is large enough to slip over the retainer for room to work. Have you done this with some successful miles on the clock now?

Thank you every body again!

 

[BoomerBob]

Thank you for this nice explanation, I didn't know what the bearing side cover meant. Your video was very helpful. So which side of bearing side plate are you accessing this from. The inner side closest to the retainers or the outter side through the dust cover somehow? I guess from pictures you could access this from the inner side as the bearing side cover is large enough to slip over the retainer for room to work.

Thank you every body again!

Timely thread. While discovering I had bad u-joints and driveshaft I noticed dust clinging to one inner drum brake. Pulled it this morning and found oil in the ABS sensor area and sadly; the brake shoes are contaminated with diff fluid.

I know I'll get this 01 in top condition one day but it has been the worst money pit I've ever owned out of the 40-50 vehicles I've owned.

One good thing is I already have the HF press because I thought I had a bad front bearing but it turned out the be a shoddy pad replacement with parts floating where they shouldn't.

I ordered the tool to pull the rear bearing. I think at this point I'll go ahead and replace both axle seals, repack the bearing on the side that's leaking diff fluid, and replace all 4 brake shoes. I think the drums are still good once cleaned up. Since I replaced the rotors and pads up front recently I'll have a nice new brake job to go with the rest of the nice new driveline/engine parts.

 

[snydmax]

Just want to say thanks to Tim for his videos! We had a bad axle seal leak which was flinging oil up the tire and even lead to the brakes freezing after a hard stop.

Bought the parts online and found a local transmission/machine shop to do the work... came out around $750 total including all the parts Tim lists in his ABS video plus new brake shoes installed... compare that to the $1360 the dealer wanted


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[Drcoffee]

Hey [MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION],

In the quoted method above, how are you repacking the bearing if they are sealed? I'm just trying to figure out from which side you are accessing to repack the lithium grease.

Also just confirming, you are saying to drill a hole in the dust shield in the drum area to drain any possible oil that resides inside?

Thanks!



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The red side plate can be carefully removed, clean out the gear oil and repack with Lithium grease. The bearing isnt very thick. Use a pick and pry off the inner plastic cover. Spray with non chlorinated brake cleaner until the grease is removed and blow out the cleaner with compressed air. Then work in the new grease.