rear locker---air vs electronic---pros, cons, prices, options,----aware me

[ExCabSwap]

I think he is talking about the actual alternator. Fuses, relays and other accessories are irrelevant. The 4runner v8 has a 130A alternator. If you go over the max load for too long (such as running 2 large air compressors for too long) you will blow the alternator while on the trail. I have actually done this with my 05 and had to replace the alt when I got home.

I find it extremely unusual that someone using multiple LED light bars would be airing up their tires, while simultaneously engaging their lockers.

With a dual battery setup, if you've got your accessories wired to the 2nd batt. then there would be a lot less of a load on the alternator too.

 

[duffdog]

Seems like a non issue for most people... we actually have decently sized alternators even for stock... Even with that said, you bring up a point that would favor a dual compressor setup.

As an example:

My Viair 400 I use for tire air/up down has a spec sheet max of 30A, but when measured at the pump its closer to 20-24 amps with my tires filled to 32lb.

The CKSA12 ARB compressor for lockers only uses 5.5 AMPS and has an integral tank... it doesn't really get any easier than that. That electrical load is so mild you dont really need to think twice about it.

For those that do have some heavy hitting electrical requirements, be smart in how you use it. Just be aware of how you are using the available power. For example: dont run 40+ amps worth of lighting when airing up/down.

For those that want a bit more of a fool proof setup spend a little more attention to design of the electrical system.

For example: If you have 100 amps worth of accessories and only 50 amps worth of safe alternator overhead then in addition to fusing, which is done to protect the cable, you can add a breaker sized to 50 amps to feed the entire AUX fuse block.

This gives you a bit of a saftey net for those times you forget or accidentally draw more than you really wanted it to... trip a breaker, check yourself before you wreck yourself, reset, and try again. Chances are there is something you can turn off to free up overhead...

I think you are VASTLY underestimating how much current is needed for a large air compressor and light bars. A small wimpy compressor which can barely fill up a stock tire is not what I am talking about. If you actually go off road, then you actually have BIG tires which need BIG air compressors which need BIG current to make them work. For instance, the average large air compressor: http://www.smittybilt.com/docs/installation/2781.pdf
pulls 45 amps. The average large 50" light bar is around 540W, which is also 45 amps. Just with those 2 accessories and not including the car, you are at 69% of the total alternator capacity. Now add a running car and you can easily blow the alternator in less than 5 minutes. I'm sure that the small ARB compressor you are talking about will not blow anything, but how many people will want a compressor in their car that literally can't inflate their tires? So now with the little compressor + the large compressor, you have to add the wimpy ARB compressor to a large compressor to inflate the tires, that equates to even more current from the alternator. I also don't know anyone who has light bars mounted on their truck for off road and doesn't use them at night. The suggestion of turning your lights off at night while you are working on the truck is not realistic, that's like saying you have to remove your arm to use your leg.

 

[ExCabSwap]

I'm not sure you understand how the charging system works. Just because you're drawing more amperage than your alternator can put out, doesn't mean that you'll blow up your alternator. Otherwise they'd make 700a alternators..

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[duffdog]

I'm not sure you understand how the charging system works. Just because you're drawing more amperage than your alternator can put out, doesn't mean that you'll blow up your alternator. Otherwise they'd make 700a alternators..

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

Ok, how exactly does a charging system "work"? I already blew up my alternator, so I'm all for any explanation how that happened. And by the way: http://www.ceniehoff.com/productDetail.asp_Q_catID_E_148_A_subCatID_E_242_A_productID_E_1223

 

[Nyc-Runner]

S0 what happens to the locking central diff ? and ACTRAC

Nothing happens to them,, your only swapping/beefing up your 3rd member and rear housing, everything else works as it did.

 

[ExCabSwap]

Ok, how exactly does a charging system "work"? I already blew up my alternator, so I'm all for any explanation how that happened. And by the way: http://www.ceniehoff.com/productDetail.asp_Q_catID_E_148_A_subCatID_E_242_A_productID_E_1223

Thanks for the link, i was certainly aware of dual alternator setups..

As far as the charging system, Google search will give you the basics so I don't have to.

A more advanced charging system is a dual battery system. With dual batteries, ideally yellow top Optimas, or some other pair of hybrid deep cell battery, you're separating the power source of your accessories to what I'll refer to as battery 2, leaving battery 1 as your basic starting/running battery. Battery 1 is completely separate from your accessories until a smart managed switch senses that battery 2 needs to be charged. like this:

There are different ways to set it up, but a smart managed switch can help keep both batteries charged up without overloading your alternator.

The reason I said that they don't make 700amp alternators is because winches can pull upwards of 600 amps, not to mention extreme duty winches. Add that to your light bars and you're looking at a huge load.

This is where the batteries come in. Your battery is rated for xxxx cranking amps. 900 cranking amps would be great in each battery.

Putting a 600amp load on your battery will put a load on your alternator, but it won't 'force' the alternator to attempt to generate 600amps. If the max rating of my alternator is 80 amps, then that's the most it's physically capable of generating.

It will take some time to recharge a battery that has been stressed with 600 amps for a given amount of time. If you're putting a high ampere load on your battery, like lights etc., With a single battery system, you'll find that you need to keep the vehicle running to recharge the battery.

I can't tell you exactly why you've been sold alternators that die, only that it's possible to fry the voltage regulator, which means that there's no guarantee that your alternator is putting out 14.7 volts.. could be generating 20, could be generating 7, also if the regulator fails, when your electrical system triggers the alternator to charge the battery, it won't respond, or could be overcharging the battery.

I kinda rambled, but hopefully you see what I mean. There's no way to read tone of voice, and I've been told that what I write can sound a bit harsh. I've got no bitterness in my intention to elaborate on this. I'm just a lazy writer.

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[Bumbo]

I think you are VASTLY underestimating how much current is needed for a large air compressor and light bars. A small wimpy compressor which can barely fill up a stock tire is not what I am talking about. If you actually go off road, then you actually have BIG tires which need BIG air compressors which need BIG current to make them work. For instance, the average large air compressor: http://www.smittybilt.com/docs/installation/2781.pdf
pulls 45 amps. The average large 50" light bar is around 540W, which is also 45 amps. Just with those 2 accessories and not including the car, you are at 69% of the total alternator capacity. Now add a running car and you can easily blow the alternator in less than 5 minutes. I'm sure that the small ARB compressor you are talking about will not blow anything, but how many people will want a compressor in their car that literally can't inflate their tires? So now with the little compressor + the large compressor, you have to add the wimpy ARB compressor to a large compressor to inflate the tires, that equates to even more current from the alternator. I also don't know anyone who has light bars mounted on their truck for off road and doesn't use them at night. The suggestion of turning your lights off at night while you are working on the truck is not realistic, that's like saying you have to remove your arm to use your leg.

I already have all the stuff you talk about and its a non issue...

Most 50" 540 watt light bars don't actually draw anywhere close to that much... measure it... puffed up marketing numbers as they generally using a "3 watt" or 5" watt" led and just give you the total max wattage of that emitter, but in reality they never drive LEDs at 100%. They make too much heat and for very little lumens gain. Expect to see them driven closer to 50-70%.

The Viair 400 also has enough speed/CFM to fill 4 of my 33" tires 0-30 PSI in LESS than one duty cycle... so, again, not undersized, its correctly sized for my rig. That said, I generally air down to the mid teens, and that's enough headroom across the board including our hot desert days.

Here is an excellent example. Totron 40" Curved bar, advertised at 240 watts. Here is one I purchased, legit Totron, measured and confirmed with my own meters. Its only pulling 150 watts / 13 amps. Thats driven to 62% of its LEDs max wattage.

I also have two Vision X EVO clones both a 30 in grill and a 40 on a flat rack.

I also take the time to turn everything on to test and measure all electrical loads... Lighting, compressors, ARB fridge, 2 x Ham Radios...

I know first hand how much consumption at load I have, and how much I need. So I know I am not "VASTLY underestimating" considering I know to the tenth of an amp how much I use and spent to time to design my loads around my applications and needs.

That said, I feel you missed my point... the point was load management. I was giving examples as to how to be smart about it, and even with very high amp load requirements you can shed accessory loads when needed.

Considering this thread was about lockers, I was also just simply trying to make a case for a 2nd smaller accessory pump by ARB so we can avoid insane electrical loads onto a system for the purpose to an air setup to use said lockers.

If you designed your system right, you wont run into problems, and if you know how much you need so you can make the appropriate changes and plan upgrades, like an High output alternator before causing issues to your cars electrical system.

I also don't know anyone who has light bars mounted on their truck for off road and doesn't use them at night. The suggestion of turning your lights off at night while you are working on the truck is not realistic, that's like saying you have to remove your arm to use your leg.

Again I mentioned load shedding and not all items including compressors run 100% duty cycle. They fill and stop.... Regarding lights... I have different types of lights, high output driving lights, fog lights, headlights lights, work lights, side lights, portable lights... I can always power down a couple high output driving lights to feed the need...

That said, if you have the money for the types of accessories and like to go-hard... then get a high output alternator and its not really an expensive upgrade... and easy to drop in yourself...

 

[swiftneed]

2003 V8 2UZFE is a 8in rearTACOMA/ FJ/ 4RUNNER 8" REVERSE IFS CLAMSHELL This was taken from the EAST COAST GEAR SUPPLY., thinking of going this route for peace of mind.

ECGS - Tacoma/ FJ/ 4runner 8" Reverse IFS Clamshell
Tacoma/ FJ/ 4runner 8" Reverse IFS ClamshellECGS - Tacoma/ FJ/ 4runner 8" Reverse IFS Clamshell
Pricing: $595.00
Brand new Nitro Gears, 4.56/4.88 Ring and Pinions
New Koyo bearings can be added however all of our cores have like new bearings 200
ARB units can be added in drop down tabs below $875 thats without the compressor
This is an assembled Front 8.0 reverse Differential for 05+ Tacoma, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser clamshell differential and includes shipping but does not include core charge.is 400
If you want 3.90 or 4.10 gears and have 3.73 gears and you will need to add an ARB or a 3.90 and up carrier from the drop down tab. If you have 3.90 and up gears and want 4.56 gears you will need the 3.73 and down carrier we will provide this carrier free of charge in exchange for your carrier while supplies last
If you are waiting until you receive new diff, to send your unit in, please select add core charge from the core charge drop down Tab. When we receive your core, we will immediately refund your core charge.
We can also include a return shipping label with your new diff by selecting "Send return label" from the shipping drop down Tab. This will allow you to use our shipping discount. Just place diff in the package it came in, and take it to a FedEx store or hand to a FedEx driver. It will then be delivered to us, simple as that.
Diffs will not be shipped with out a core or a core charge. If you want to send in your diff select "No core" a Call tag/ UPS label can be sent to the email address you provide in checkout by selecting "Send call Tag" in the shipping Tab.
When you select call tag option or return label option you are giving us permission to charge your card actual shipping charges on diff that will not be stated at time of checkout. Shipping charges will vary based on location. East Coast shipments are in the $30 range and west coast shipments are in the $45 range. The alternative is to select "no shipping required" from shipping drop down tab, this means that you will pay to send in your diff or to return your core.

********We offer a 5 year warranty with all our assembled diffs on parts and labor, warranty only covers bearings and gears, if a spider gear failure causes damage to other parts we are not responsible. Locker failure is only covered under manufacturers warranty but we will install new locker free of charge. Warranty on 8" Toyota diffs is limited to 35 inch tires with a stock Toyota motor. Tire size over 35 inches will be warrantied at our discretion if it is a set up error we will take care of it regardless of tire size. But if your running 35's and up and abusing it offroad we can only do so much. This is the best warranty in the industry and will outlast your factory warranty********

********We have a 72 hour diff return policy if you send us a diff it will be shipped back to you with in 72 hours or we credit you $50********

********Questions are welcome please call for any missed details we tried to be as thorough as possible.*******
Availability: Typical Lead Time is Two Weeks!!
ADD ARB
Add New Bearings
REQUIRED FOR 3.90,4.10 AND 4.30 IF ARB IS NOT CHOSEN
- ADD 4 SERIES CASE -
Select Gear Ratio
Add Solid Spacer
Tacoma, FJ Cruiser, 4runner Toyota 8" Camshell High Pinion reverse differential. Fits 05 and UP Tacoma, 03 and UP 4Runner, and New FJ Cruiser
Stock #: DIFF-BUILD-T8CS

 

[duffdog]

I already have all the stuff you talk about and its a non issue...

Most 50" 540 watt light bars don't actually draw anywhere close to that much... measure it... puffed up marketing numbers as they generally using a "3 watt" or 5" watt" led and just give you the total max wattage of that emitter, but in reality they never drive LEDs at 100%. They make too much heat and for very little lumens gain. Expect to see them driven closer to 50-70%.

The Viair 400 also has enough speed/CFM to fill 4 of my 33" tires 0-30 PSI in LESS than one duty cycle... so, again, not undersized, its correctly sized for my rig. That said, I generally air down to the mid teens, and that's enough headroom across the board including our hot desert days.

Here is an excellent example. Totron 40" Curved bar, advertised at 240 watts. Here is one I purchased, legit Totron, measured and confirmed with my own meters. Its only pulling 150 watts / 13 amps. Thats driven to 62% of its LEDs max wattage.

I also have two Vision X EVO clones both a 30 in grill and a 40 on a flat rack.

I also take the time to turn everything on to test and measure all electrical loads... Lighting, compressors, ARB fridge, 2 x Ham Radios...

I know first hand how much consumption at load I have, and how much I need. So I know I am not "VASTLY underestimating" considering I know to the tenth of an amp how much I use and spent to time to design my loads around my applications and needs.

That said, I feel you missed my point... the point was load management. I was giving examples as to how to be smart about it, and even with very high amp load requirements you can shed accessory loads when needed.

Considering this thread was about lockers, I was also just simply trying to make a case for a 2nd smaller accessory pump by ARB so we can avoid insane electrical loads onto a system for the purpose to an air setup to use said lockers.

If you designed your system right, you wont run into problems, and if you know how much you need so you can make the appropriate changes and plan upgrades, like an High output alternator before causing issues to your cars electrical system.



Again I mentioned load shedding and not all items including compressors run 100% duty cycle. They fill and stop.... Regarding lights... I have different types of lights, high output driving lights, fog lights, headlights lights, work lights, side lights, portable lights... I can always power down a couple high output driving lights to feed the need...

That said, if you have the money for the types of accessories and like to go-hard... then get a high output alternator and its not really an expensive upgrade... and easy to drop in yourself...

You are right, "most" 50" light bars don't pull the full current because most are cheap crap made in china, like your Totron, which is 100% chinese. I am not surprised that a chinese product lied about its ratings. Also, your compressor, which you state is "appropriately sized" takes exactly how long to fill 4 33" tires from 6psi to 36psi? 20 minutes? 30 minutes? That is way too long, I want all 4 tires filled from 6psi to 36psi in under 6 minutes, then fill up my buddies truck with all 4 tires in 6 minutes, all while using the light bars so that I can see what I am doing. You are lucky in that the equipment you have chosen is both light duty and inexpensive, of course a light bar that doesn't put out the light it is supposed to also does not draw the current it is supposed to. And with regards to the air-locker. Do you actually have one? Those are one of the most annoying sounding things to ever be invented. Here is what one sounds like when it is engaged using the "recommended" ARB compressor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSDjQJX2Dls

I don't know about you, but if I had to wheel with that stupid compressor cycling on and off every 30 seconds, I would rip that pile of junk out of my truck and throw it away. And by the way, I have measured the current of the 540 watt light bar I have personally installed, it pulled 41A at 12.9V. That is not exactly what is stated on the bar, but pretty damn close.

My point is, you cannot "shed the load" of the things that you have to use at the time. If you have to use a BIG compressor and a BIG light bar simultaneously, there is just no way to save any power. The only reason it works on your vehicle is because you have low performance equipment that doesn't really do anything.

 

[Bumbo]

You are right, "most" 50" light bars don't pull the full current because most are cheap crap made in china, like your Totron, which is 100% chinese. I am not surprised that a chinese product lied about its ratings. Also, your compressor, which you state is "appropriately sized" takes exactly how long to fill 4 33" tires from 6psi to 36psi? 20 minutes? 30 minutes? That is way too long, I want all 4 tires filled from 6psi to 36psi in under 6 minutes, then fill up my buddies truck with all 4 tires in 6 minutes, all while using the light bars so that I can see what I am doing. You are lucky in that the equipment you have chosen is both light duty and inexpensive, of course a light bar that doesn't put out the light it is supposed to also does not draw the current it is supposed to. And with regards to the air-locker. Do you actually have one? Those are one of the most annoying sounding things to ever be invented. Here is what one sounds like when it is engaged using the "recommended" ARB compressor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSDjQJX2Dls

I don't know about you, but if I had to wheel with that stupid compressor cycling on and off every 30 seconds, I would rip that pile of junk out of my truck and throw it away. And by the way, I have measured the current of the 540 watt light bar I have personally installed, it pulled 41A at 12.9V. That is not exactly what is stated on the bar, but pretty damn close.

My point is, you cannot "shed the load" of the things that you have to use at the time. If you have to use a BIG compressor and a BIG light bar simultaneously, there is just no way to save any power. The only reason it works on your vehicle is because you have low performance equipment that doesn't really do anything.

You really dont understand how this works... even the American brands advertise it the same way. No one runs 100%. I'm also 100% content with my Chinese light bars... this is a 4Runner, not a half million dollar trophy truck. I already have so much damn light as it is, I dont see what spending $1500 per bar would really buy me?

I dont know why you fight this, but its not complicated... size the system for you needs. I dont need to air up in 60 seconds and take care of a bunch of other trail noobs. I have air that fits my needs. Air up time is fine, I grab a beer from the fridge and enjoy a day with friends...

Not everyone needs the biggest damn everything to enjoy their rigs on a trail. This is why you "blew up" your alternator in the first place... poor planning and bad design, and you are the one giving the solid advise?

Instead of having the attitude of telling people you can't do it, why not give informed information to help people design a system that works for them?

I already mentioned that if you have big electrical needs, then get a bigger alternator. But for those that want to keep in within the performance envelop of the stock system, it can be done and still have a nice setup.

 

[ExCabSwap]

You don't need a bigger alternator, just get a dual battery setup.. how do you think people run winches on their ride? It's not because of a high output alternator.
If you can't afford a dual battery setup, at least invest in a better deep cycle primary battery. That'll be your best option.

Alright, back to insulting poorly made products

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

 

[nevada]

You don't need a bigger alternator, just get a dual battery setup.. how do you think people run winches on their ride? It's not because of a high output alternator.
If you can't afford a dual battery setup, at least invest in a better deep cycle primary battery. That'll be your best option.

Alright, back to insulting poorly made products

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

honestly, I think if you have enough draw that you need a 2nd battery, you also need a higher output alternator.

if you end up drawing the batterieS down significantly, a lower output alternator is going to struggle to bring them back up. it may never. if you end up needing that heavy electrical load again, you may not have it.

you need to balance the capacity of the batteries, with the output of the alternator.

 

[ddnww]

if you are drawing more amps from your battery/batteries than your alternator can charge them with, then you need a high output alternator. Otherwise you will eventually ruin your alt.

 

[ddnww]

Who here has a winch, air lockers, light bars , etc, and has no problems using them all on a regular basis? And by no problems I mean with your electrical system, alternator, batteries, etc.

what is your electrical setup?

 

[nevada]

if you are drawing more amps from your battery/batteries than your alternator can charge them with, then you need a high output alternator. Otherwise you will eventually ruin your alt.

as well as the batteries.

Who here has a winch, air lockers, light bars , etc, and has no problems using them all on a regular basis? And by no problems I mean with your electrical system, alternator, batteries, etc.

what is your electrical setup?

years ago, while on a long wheeling trip, I ran into the issue of not having enough electrical power. both in capacity, and supply. it made for a very long, not so fun-never want to do again, night.

I vowed that night, it wouldn't happen again. I have since upgraded to a higher output alt(140A) and high capacity dual batteries. and, I have never again "ran out of power" it has been great. and overall, one of my favorite mods.

with lights, fans, winches, compressors etc. it doesn't take long to drain a battery. especially on a trail, where often times the rpms are low for an extended period of time. the alternator isn't putting out nearly as much at the lower rpms.

 

[Bumbo]

Who here has a winch, air lockers, light bars , etc, and has no problems using them all on a regular basis? And by no problems I mean with your electrical system, alternator, batteries, etc.

what is your electrical setup?

My electrical project and needs started with a requirement for more storage/amp hours to run smaller but more persistent accessories loads like an ARB fridge, accessory charging, and radio communications gear... while maintaining saftey for vehical starting for those off-grid adventures and leisure camping trips.

Dirty Parts Dual Battery Tray
2nd Battery
MEGA fusing for mains cable, no crappy car audio stuff here. Crimped and bolted cable.
New Wiring / Refresh crimped Connectors for everything.
Blue Sea ACR (Automatic Charging Relay)
Blue Sea m-LVD(programmable low voltage disconnect feeding both aux fuse panels)
Blue Sea Fuse Panel x 2 (One under hood, one in cab)
Wire
Solar Panel (for emergency or extended stays when I dont feel like starting or driving to charge)
MPPT Solar Charge Controller
Anderson Powerpole quick disconnects for EVERYTHING

I probably have about $1000 in electrical infrastructure into the truck NOT including the fridge.

As my needs change and as I keep adding items I will eventually need to upgrade my alternator, but as of now, my loads are still well within a safe operating range.

The system is robust and worry free, you can't mess it up even if you tried. Not having to worry about the starter battery going dead is a pretty big piece-of-mind item for me... almost mission critical considering the type of camping I do sometimes... The system is 100% isolated when the engine is not running plus I have protections in place to maintain the health of the accessory battery.

fusing, switches, led indicator, and control wiring...

Outdoor = Inside freezer / Inside = Car cabin temp

 

[ExCabSwap]

Blue Sea ACR (Automatic Charging Relay)
Blue Sea m-LVD(programmable low voltage disconnect feeding both aux fuse panels)

These look amazing! and thanks for the awesome pics!

Didn't know they mad the LVD.. Looks like it's limited to 65 Amps continuous, 115 Amps intermittent... Any problems with it? Are you using just one to control all of your accessories (except the winch)?

 

[Bumbo]

These look amazing! and thanks for the awesome pics!

Didn't know they mad the LVD.. Looks like it's limited to 65 Amps continuous, 115 Amps intermittent... Any problems with it? Are you using just one to control all of your accessories (except the winch)?

Ya, their LVD is really nice. No problems at all, in fact its really make the setup that much better as it helps protect the system from abuse which accelerates degrading the performance of the battery. It feeds my aux panels so whatever loads I wanted protected by an LVD I connect.

It is 65 RMS 115 peak but they make other models. These are sized for my needs but it only feeds loads that are setup to be on all the time. For example fridge, radio coms, charging batteries , and some work lighting (not drive lighting)... things that need to just work or be on. I even moved the power supply for the stereo over to the LVD protected 2nd battery circuit and can also turn on the stereo without the key in the car so that's my "jambox"...

I try and make my system as efficient as possible, I dont want to use a bunch of power all the time, so I can get as much run time as possible... mostly its just the fridge, which even with a high 11.8v voltage cut-off I can get about 10-14 hours of run time... So as long as I daily drive the car I have a running fridge... nice because I pack my lunch at the beginning of the week for work and generally always have some cold brews on deck too. Its really nice for around town, errands, and getting some meat or groceries when you keep it running 24/7

I do have a 7.2 amp tender when its parked at home for extended periods of time... and solar for when out camping.

The switch is really nice, to control and monitor... override when low and its programmable so you can select the disconnect voltage.

It runs unattended so it does self recover after an under voltage event.

Heavy loads I connect before the LVD, but those are also attended loads and I generally always have the car running for those...

My system is changes as my needs change, and rarely do things not get upgraded or changed to accommodate my needs better...

 

[swiftneed]

air lockers

thought this was a thread on Lockers any input instead of voltage ratings and dual battery setups I think you guys are in the wrong thread