Rear wheel bearing BS! Input appreciated

[mtbtim]

Ok guys, here is a video of the driver side wheel. I fallowed Tims video. And have done this job before. anyways, everything is OEM. C-clip grove exposed. Everything bolted besides the ebrake. Notice the play...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN9283BEvyA&feature=youtu.be

This video, is the passenger side. This side got taken apart for 2nd time. The abs ring and the seal retainer removed. Along with the c-clip. Then the retainer that touches the bearing got pressed with more force. The 20 ton jack did "NOT" get maxed out but significant force was used. Although the retainer did not look like it moved any further then it was from the first time. However, the play that the driver side has. Seems to have gone. Although I don't know if its due to more force on the retainer or what, because it really did not move anywhere...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNzNuxgBKzc&feature=youtu.be

so im not sure wtf is going on, if thats normal or what....... all i know is the first retainer is below the c-clip grove.

Wow, I don't know what to say. That is a ton of play on that driver side. Something is not right. As long as you pressed the axle shaft through the bearing with the outer retainer supporting the inner bearing race on the opposite side, you couldn't have caused damage to the bearing. But, it sure looks like that bearing has a ton of play. Maybe it is possible you got a bad bearing.

 

[kolelt]

Wow, I don't know what to say. That is a ton of play on that driver side. Something is not right. As long as you pressed the axle shaft through the bearing with the outer retainer supporting the inner bearing race on the opposite side, you couldn't have caused damage to the bearing. But, it sure looks like that bearing has a ton of play. Maybe it is possible you got a bad bearing.

Should I try more pressure ?

 

[mtbtim]

Should I try more pressure ?

I've never used heavy pressure when driving the axle through the bearing. Like I've said, every time the press has loaded up with no more movement, I was done and I confirmed that by being able to get the c-clip installed. This has been the same thing with doing other press work like the front wheel bearings. Once significant resistance has been met without further movement, you know you're done.

I don't see how pressing it with more pressure is going to do anything if you were already able to get the c-clip installed. That play you're experiencing in the wheel has to be coming from excessive play in the bearing unless the bearing case has somehow worn allowing the bearing to move in there.

 

[dogtail]

Ok guys, here is a video of the driver side wheel. I fallowed Tims video. And have done this job before. anyways, everything is OEM. C-clip grove exposed. Everything bolted besides the ebrake. Notice the play...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN9283BEvyA&feature=youtu.be

This video, is the passenger side. This side got taken apart for 2nd time. The abs ring and the seal retainer removed. Along with the c-clip. Then the retainer that touches the bearing got pressed with more force. The 20 ton jack did "NOT" get maxed out but significant force was used. Although the retainer did not look like it moved any further then it was from the first time. However, the play that the driver side has. Seems to have gone. Although I don't know if its due to more force on the retainer or what, because it really did not move anywhere...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNzNuxgBKzc&feature=youtu.be

so im not sure wtf is going on, if thats normal or what....... all i know is the first retainer is below the c-clip grove.

I saw a video you posted during the Summer where one of the rear wheels was wobbling, not sure what side it was. I think you said you were thinking the axle was bent and possibility of getting another axle. What was the outcome of that issue?

 

[kolelt]

I saw a video you posted during the Summer where one of the rear wheels was wobbling, not sure what side it was. I think you said you were thinking the axle was bent and possibility of getting another axle. What was the outcome of that issue?

Though it was the axle that was bent. Because I was getting vibrations. But turned out it was a loose pinion. But even if the axle was bent... it shouldn’t have play like this. I should remove the rim and drum and see if it has the same play.

This is driving me nuts. Brand new OEM bearing. I have two Koyo spare bearings. Same thing just not in Toyota box.

 

[kolelt]

I've never used heavy pressure when driving the axle through the bearing. Like I've said, every time the press has loaded up with no more movement, I was done and I confirmed that by being able to get the c-clip installed. This has been the same thing with doing other press work like the front wheel bearings. Once significant resistance has been met without further movement, you know you're done.

I don't see how pressing it with more pressure is going to do anything if you were already able to get the c-clip installed. That play you're experiencing in the wheel has to be coming from excessive play in the bearing unless the bearing case has somehow worn allowing the bearing to move in there.

Just to double check. Do you see any problem with me pressing everything of. Getting new oem bearing housing. And pressing everything back. Like I said, it’s all put back together but has not been driven.

 

[mtbtim]

Just to double check. Do you see any problem with me pressing everything of. Getting new oem bearing housing. And pressing everything back. Like I said, it’s all put back together but has not been driven.

Well, I'm not an expert in bearings but from what i understand there's a high chance you will damage the bearing when pressing the axle shaft out. The reason is there's no way to support the inner race while you're pressing out the axle. That lateral load isn't good for the bearing. It's the same with our front wheel bearings. But, when you press the axle shaft for the rear or the hub for the front into the bearing, you ARE able to support the inner race on the opposing side of the bearing to protect it from damage during the pressing procedure. So, if you want to do this, I would suggest replacing the bearing as well.

 

[kolelt]

Well, I'm not an expert in bearings but from what i understand there's a high chance you will damage the bearing when pressing the axle shaft out. The reason is there's no way to support the inner race while you're pressing out the axle. That lateral load isn't good for the bearing. It's the same with our front wheel bearings. But, when you press the axle shaft for the rear or the hub for the front into the bearing, you ARE able to support the inner race on the opposing side of the bearing to protect it from damage during the pressing procedure. So, if you want to do this, I would suggest replacing the bearing as well.

But as far as the metal retainers and abs ring.

 

[mtbtim]

But as far as the metal retainers and abs ring.

Yeah, you can totally reuse those no problem.

 

[kolelt]

Anyone know anything about these
Yukon Gear | 4340 Chromoly 1979-2004 Toyota Axles


Could it really be my axle ? In all honesty. What do you guys think the issue could be ?

 

[Mandle]

Pull out the axle assembly and inspect it for bearing play.

 

[kolelt]

Ok. Let’s do this. We established the following.

The bearing has movement in and out inside the bearing housing that is on the backing plate. That is normal!

The backing plate has movement all around with the bearing in the bearing housing. Or should I say the bearing it self. That is normal !

I’m going to rule out that the axle is bent, because let’s be realistic. A bent axle would not cause that kinda of play that is in the video. Also everything that got pressed on had resistance so the axle sleeve did not seemed messed up.

I should check for play with the wheel of and the drum of. Maybe the brembo drums aren’t fully seating on the new OEM pads. Thus causing the wheel to not fully sit on the lugs. And maybe once the lug nuts are tightened there is play in the actual wheel ?

Possible issues: Bad brand new OEM bearing(s).

 

[4Runner4Leon]

The rear bearings are radial ball bearings, they are not designed to resist moments (wiggling). That's why the bearing case (hub) can wiggle on the bearing until it's installed in the housing.

Once the axle assembly is installed in the housing, the bearing case/backing plate can't wiggle because they're rigidly bolted to the housing, and the axle can't wiggle because it's constrained by both the outer ball bearing and the spline deep in the third member (that's what resists the moment loading).

In other words, the backing plate cannot wiggle once everything is assembled, even if your bearing is shot to hell. Again, it's a radial bearing, not a moment carrying bearing. So I don't think your issue has anything to do with the bearing.

I suspect your issue is somewhere in the attachment of the drum or the wheel to the axle. I think something is not seating properly.

Try this - remove the wheel, remove the drum, and bolt something to the axle flange (I use an old 0.375" x 1.5" steel form stake with two holes drilled in it for the studs)- then try to wiggle it. I'd be really surprised if it moves at all - which would confirm that the problem is not in the axle assembly, but in the assembly of the drum or wheel on the axle flange.

 

[nevada]

Ok. Let’s do this. We established the following.

The bearing has movement in and out inside the bearing housing that is on the backing plate. That is normal!

The backing plate has movement all around with the bearing in the bearing housing. Or should I say the bearing it self. That is normal !

I’m going to rule out that the axle is bent, because let’s be realistic. A bent axle would not cause that kinda of play that is in the video. Also everything that got pressed on had resistance so the axle sleeve did not seemed messed up.

I should check for play with the wheel off and the drum off. Maybe the brembo drums aren’t fully seating on the new OEM pads. Thus causing the wheel to not fully sit on the lugs. And maybe once the lug nuts are tightened there is play in the actual wheel ?

Possible issues: Bad brand new OEM bearing(s).

yes I would like to see if there is any movement without those pieces. I doubt a new OEM bearing is bad, and a new backing plate wouldn't change anything. as the bearing is located between the end of the backing plate, and the end of the housing.

any play side/side or up/down between the bearing and backing plate wouldn't show up at the tire/axle. because the axle is locating the tire, and the bearing is pressed to the axle. as long as the bearing is pinched onto the end of the housing correctly, the rest wont matter. if that makes sense. its harder to explain with text, than it would in person lol.

 

[kolelt]

The rear bearings are radial ball bearings, they are not designed to prevent moments (wiggling). That's why the bearing case (hub) can wiggle on the bearing until it's installed in the housing.

Once the axle assembly is installed in the housing, the bearing case/backing plate can't wiggle because it's rigidly bolted to the housing, and the axle can't wiggle because it's constrained by both the outer ball bearing and the spline deep in the third member (that's what resists the moment loading).

In other words, the backing plate cannot wiggle once everything is assembled, even if your bearing is shot to hell. Again, it's a radial bearing, not a moment carrying bearing. So I don't think your issue has anything to do with the bearing.

I suspect your issue is somewhere in the attachment of the drum or the wheel to the axle. I think something is not seating properly.

Try this - remove the wheel, remove the drum, and bolt something to the axle flange (I use an old 0.375" x 1.5" steel form stake with two holes drilled in it for the studs)- then try to wiggle it. I'd be really surprised if it moves at all - which would confirm that the problem is not in the axle assembly, but in the assembly of the drum or wheel on the axle flange.

I like that idea. Will report back with the results.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

as long as the bearing is pinched onto the end of the housing correctly, the rest wont matter. if that makes sense. its harder to explain with text, than it would in person lol.

Right, and even if the bearing was shot to hell, completely loose, or completely disintegrated, it still cannot allow pivoting of the tire in and out, as the video was showing. It can allow motion up and down, and side to side - but not pivoting (wiggling).

My bet is that the drum or the wheel is not seating correctly. Try my test above to confirm that the axle flange does not wiggle, then look very carefully at how the drum is seating on the axle flange, how the wheel is seating on the drum, and how the lug nuts are seating on the wheel.

 

[kolelt]

Right, and even if the bearing was shot to hell, completely loose, or completely disintegrated, it still cannot allow pivoting of the tire in and out, as the video was showing. It can allow motion up and down, and side to side - but not pivoting (wiggling).

My bet is that the drum or the wheel is not seating correctly. Try my test above to confirm that the axle flange does not wiggle, then look very carefully at how the drum is seating on the axle flange, how the wheel is seating on the drum, and how the lug nuts are seating on the wheel.

Yeah. In the video. I was wiggling the tire. I was not pulling on it.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

Yeah. In the video. I was wiggling the tire. I was not pulling on it.

Right - I'm saying that the only way the tire can wiggle like that is if the drum is not seated on the flange, or the wheel is not seated against the drum. The bearing, no matter how loose or obliterated, cannot allow such wiggle.

Check that the drum is fully seated against the flat of the axle flange, and not caught on some ridge or shoulder on the centering protrusion of the axle flange.

Then check that the wheel is fully seated against the drum. It's nearly impossible to see this directly obviously, but when you mount the tire/wheel on the axle flange studs against the drum, it should be a very firm stop, yet the wheel should be able to rotate slightly back and forth against the drum (within the slop between the studs and the wheel holes). If you cannot rotate the wheel counter/clockwise at all, then something is jammed.

 

[mtbtim]

Right - I'm saying that the only way the tire can wiggle like that is if the drum is not seated on the flange, or the wheel is not seated against the drum. The bearing, no matter how loose or obliterated, cannot allow such wiggle.

Check that the drum is fully seated against the flat of the axle flange, and not caught on some ridge or shoulder on the centering protrusion of the axle flange.

Then check that the wheel is fully seated against the drum. It's nearly impossible to see this directly obviously, but when you mount the tire/wheel on the axle flange studs against the drum, it should be a very firm stop, yet the wheel should be able to rotate slightly back and forth against the drum (within the slop between the studs and the wheel holes). If you cannot rotate the wheel counter/clockwise at all, then something is jammed.

From the videos, it also looks like he's running spacers. I was going to ask if he had the spacers tightened on correctly but figured there was slim chance he forgot to tighten the spacer and torque it to spec before putting the tire on.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

From the videos, it also looks like he's running spacers. I was going to ask if he had the spacers tightened on correctly but figured there was slim chance he forgot to tighten the spacer and torque it to spec before putting the tire on.

Great point Tim! If indeed there are spacers involved, then they must be verified to be tight against the drum, in addition to the other items mentioned earlier.