Slow Starter and Brake Smell

[redshift83]

Hi Everyone,
I have been driving my 97 around for a few months now without any issues, and finally got the chance to do some off-roading this past weekend, which was awesome. Unfortunately, an issue came up during the trip however that I am trying to figure out. During a morning warm-up, I noticed that the starter is turning the truck over noticeably slower than usual, and especially compared to the other trucks that were present during the trip. Note that we hadn't gone through anything significant at this point, so the starter wasn't dunked in a mud puddle or anything..

Normally, I'd suspect the starter contacts and/or the wiring to the starter, but the contacts (at least in my Celicas) have all failed with a clicking sound, but no turning over at all. Even more odd is the clear smell of burning brakes that goes away after a few seconds, telling me that it is being caused by something startup related. I checked the A/C compressor to be sure the clutch spins freely so that isn't the issue, and my truck is an auto so it isn't clutch smell, I'm wondering if the brushes are being eaten inside my starter?

Has anyone heard of a problem like this? If the starter was easy to access I'd just pull it and see if I could find anything wrong, so I figured I'd ask here first for advice.

Thanks!

 

[amalik]

Sounds dangerous tbh. Any smoke?

 

[amalik]

[MENTION=102597]IBallEngineer[/MENTION], any ideas here? I was thinking since he gets no clicking, starter contacts could be good and maybe a bad battery. But then he threw in a huge curve ball stating that he can smell burning brake pads, lol.

 

[redshift83]

Yeah I'm not really sure what to think. I looked for smoke but couldn't see anything, but the fan spins too and makes seeing that a little tough. The smell does travel into the cabin with the vents blowing, but again it isn't continuous and goes away when the truck is running.

 

[alumarine]

If the smell of burning brakes only happens when you're trying to start it then feel the battery wires and the wires going to the starter for excess heat.
If you can feel the starter check it too.

 

[redshift83]

If the smell of burning brakes only happens when you're trying to start it then feel the battery wires and the wires going to the starter for excess heat.
If you can feel the starter check it too.

You bring up a great point, thanks! It could be the insulation on the starter wire melting. It doesn't smell like burning plastic insulation, which I have unfortunately smelled before, but Toyota may use something that burns like brake or clutch material due to the starter's location. I'll try to check that out later tonight. I was planning on doing the "big three" wiring mod so maybe I'll start with the starter and see if that helps.

 

[IBallEngineer]

[MENTION=102597]IBallEngineer[/MENTION], any ideas here? I was thinking since he gets no clicking, starter contacts could be good and maybe a bad battery. But then he threw in a huge curve ball stating that he can smell burning brake pads, lol.

You have to start with the battery and connections before anything. Too many variables and not enough info for any kind of actual diagnosis. Start by checking voltage before you start up!

 

[redshift83]

You have to start with the battery and connections before anything. Too many variables and not enough info for any kind of actual diagnosis. Start by checking voltage before you start up!

Thanks, I checked the voltage before startup and it was sitting at 12.3V. During startup I saw it drop to 10.3V (my meter only has a 1-2Hz refresh so that may not be the best value). After the start and 5 sec. idle the battery was at 12.1V.
Oddly enough, the starter fired much more quickly than it has been lately, it was almost normal.

This is the first time that the truck has been in the garage since the issue came up. The garage is at ~50F vs the 30s we have had recently so temp may affect the startup. This probably indicates a battery or wiring issue, right? The issue has occurred regardless of cold or hot start though; the battery should be warmed being inside the engine bay during the latter I would think.
Alternator seems to be functioning normally, it has been ~13.8-14V lately while driving. Maybe a weak battery?

 

[IBallEngineer]

Thanks, I checked the voltage before startup and it was sitting at 12.3V. During startup I saw it drop to 10.3V (my meter only has a 1-2Hz refresh so that may not be the best value). After the start and 5 sec. idle the battery was at 12.1V.
Oddly enough, the starter fired much more quickly than it has been lately, it was almost normal.

This is the first time that the truck has been in the garage since the issue came up. The garage is at ~50F vs the 30s we have had recently so temp may affect the startup. This probably indicates a battery or wiring issue, right? The issue has occurred regardless of cold or hot start though; the battery should be warmed being inside the engine bay during the latter I would think.
Alternator seems to be functioning normally, it has been ~13.8-14V lately while driving. Maybe a weak battery?

12.3 is very low(basically 50%) at rest Voltage, is should be no lower than 12.6, or 12.7 even better. 12.0 would be an essentially dead battery. Check this chart

State of Charge
Sealed or Flooded Lead Acid Gel battery voltage AGM battery voltage
100% 12.70+ 12.85+ 12.80+
75% 12.40 12.65 12.60
50% 12.20 12.35 12.30
25% 12.00 12.00 12.00
0% 11.80 11.80 11.80

https://www.energymatters.com.au/components/battery-voltage-discharge/

 

[pluton]

Agree, check battery, then cables from battery to starter. Remember that there can be an invisible layer of corrosion between battery terminals and the clamps.
One nice thing about AGM batteries is that there is no corrosion issue, due to AGMs being totally sealed.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

12.3 is normal for a battery that is between 30-50 degrees. My 4Runner Saturn and my Cummins with dual batteries all sit at 12.3-12.5 this time of year after the surface charge goes away.


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[AntleredRuin]

Weird train of thought, but could a low (either dying or cold) battery cause both a slow start and a wiring overheat due to longer crank times?
I know the wires to the starter usually don't see more than a second or so of voltage at any given time, so could a long crank (even with lower voltage) hurt them?

 

[gamefreakgc]

Batteries lose power when cold. That's why they are rated in CCA, or cold cranking amps.

If you replaced the battery with a higher CCA rating, it would fire up quicker. The one you have is either old or it needs to be charged. A simple trickle charger overnight usually gets a battery back up to speed again.

 

[redshift83]

Thanks for all the replies, it seems to be a more interesting problem than I originally thought. Normally I would have assumed a weak battery and replaced it (I don't know when the PO changed it previously), but the distinct smell threw me for a loop.

I trickle charged the battery last night and it was sitting at 12.9 this morning, but that was just off the charger, so we'll see where it is when I get off work. Maybe I'll be doing my dual battery install sooner than I thought.. I'll keep everyone informed, and also try to get an IR thermometer on the starter/cable as well.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

To get a spare starter I bought a new one for the puppy hauler from napa.

That starter spins the engine faster then the old one did. It was enough of a difference she noticed it without me asking.

The brand new starter I put in my Cummins last summer was the same.

Your starter may need grease and lubed. If I remember my clamp on amp meter said around 180a draw during a start but I'm not sure if it the Toy or my Saturn I put the amp meter on.


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[redshift83]

So, just to provide an update, I started the truck again tonight and it started right up at the normal starter speed. I'm definitely leaning toward a bad battery at this point, or at least the battery being low. I'm going to drive it a bit over the next few days to see if the slow starter comes back, and/or the smell, but otherwise I'll probably just put a new battery in at some point.
I'll definitely post up if anything changes though.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[19963.4lsr5]

So, just to provide an update, I started the truck again tonight and it started right up at the normal starter speed. I'm definitely leaning toward a bad battery at this point, or at least the battery being low. I'm going to drive it a bit over the next few days to see if the slow starter comes back, and/or the smell, but otherwise I'll probably just put a new battery in at some point.

I'll definitely post up if anything changes though.



Thanks again everyone!

What weight oil are you using?


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[redshift83]

Honestly I don't know. The PO had just changed it and it looked new when I checked so i didn't touch it. I've only driven a couple thousand miles but I was planning to change it anyway when the weather warms up.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

A thicker oil in the winter time will act like your explaining. And somewhere around 50 degrees that thicker oil will start to flow better and allow easier starting.

IMO of course.


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[redshift83]

Interesting, I do know that my other cars start up slower, especially the WRX when it's ~15F or lower, but the 4runner has always done pretty well when it's cold considering.