Snow Tire Help (and general ranting)

[LPcreation]

Hi,

After almost dying sixteen thousand times last winter, I've decided to invest in some actual snow/winter tires for the 1st time in my 34 year old life. I'm driving a 2002 Sport Edition with the 16inch wheels.

Quick driving experience background....grew up in upstate NY in the snowbelt. It was a very rural area where we would drive like idiot teenagers and purposefully screw around during winter storms to slide/drift/whatever. Basically, I have experience in snow so I don't need the "drive better" stuff.

I've done a lot of research about why the 4Runner was so terrible in the snow and it's either bad tires, bad driver, or bad ABS system, or a combination of the 3. I know I can handle the snow, and after reading about my tires (General Grabber all-season), I've decided it's either those, or the crappy ABS system that a lot of people disable.

A common occurrence last winter was for me to be driving like 5mph in light snow that was sticking, GENTLY apply pressure on the brakes in a normal driving situation (like a straight road with no hills) and all of a sudden my SUV would freak out and the anti-lock brakes would activate, and I'd have no ability to stop whatsoever. It was the absolute worst on slight declines, because I'd actually start increasing speed even though the brakes would be applied (ever so gently I might remind you). My wife's 2008 Honda Oddysey with All-Season tires handled snow much better than my baby. Much, much better.

I apologize for the lengthe of the post, but I just wanted to get that out there in case other people are having the same experience I am having. It's bad enough that if I can't figure it out this winter I'm trading it for something else. It's seriously going to kill me.

So here I am asking for the expertise of this fine community. Which tires should I get? I've been looking online and it's tough to even figure out what tire size I need. I've read 245/75/16, 265/70/16, 235/70/16 and a few others.

I'd like to keep it around $100 a tire. Give or take a few dollars is ok if they keep me breathing.

I'm considering the following:
General Altimax Arctic - budget friendly, seem to get good reviews
Firestone Winterforce - same as above
Blizzaks - seem to be great, but are a little pricey


Any help would be really appreciated. I LOVE this SUV and don't want to get rid of it. It's a perfect vehicle for me outside of this whole possibly killing me in winter thing.

Thanks!

 

[BrianSD_42]

I'd suggest going to Tire rack.com and looking winter tires. Then click the surveys tab ( not user reviews). I think you will find this very helpful if you try it.

Btw $100 a tire is a joke and if you are looking for more traction , which you clearly are then smaller cheapo tires (like size 235x70x16 which is a skinny 29" tire) won't help. Smaller tire doesn't equal better traction, just the opposite actually. I would suggest 265x75x16 since that is the largest stock size you can fit. The SR5 came with 265x70x16. Its basically a 31.5" vs a 31" tire .

 

[white_n_slow]

I would go stock size (265/70) with my second choice being 245/75. Does anyone make a 255/75? that would be a good size as well. 235/75 is a significant drop in diameter and will make your highway revs a little high.

I currently have General Altimax on my acura and they are the bees knees. My front wheel drive TL can go anywhere I need it to here in Colorado, including sheet ice parking lots, mountain passes, etc.

I have used the Bridgestone Blizzak ws60 (now called the ws80) and they are damn good, but the Generals are almost on par for much cheaper, so I would go General.

I made the decision about 5 years ago that I was just going to pony up the dough for winter tires (I own a lot of vehicles, so it's not cheap). But having rolled in winter conditions, the peace of mind is worth it.


Also, FWIW, I have experienced some 4runner ABS crazyness myself, although not as bad as you're describing. Either way, the tires will help a lot.

 

[shootmymime]

with the anti lock brakes kicking in, push on the peddle harder seems to help me.

ive had Michelin ltx m/s for a while now and they work amazing in the snow.

 

[ki1022]

I disabled my ABS on my 4runner and never looked back. I felt like I was more likely to get into an accident with it than without it. Just unplug 1 of the connectors on the ABS actuator box located near the passenger side firewall. Putting snow tires on probably won't fix the ABS issue because they will still slip in the snow.

 

[mxer]

Hi,


I've done a lot of research about why the 4Runner was so terrible in the snow and it's either bad tires, bad driver, or bad ABS system, or a combination of the 3.

Being terrible in the snow is news to me. Any vehicle will suck with bad tires and a bad driver...maybe that's the situation here.

 

[LPcreation]

Being terrible in the snow is news to me. Any vehicle will suck with bad tires and a bad driver...maybe that's the situation here.

It's more of an ABS issue than that my general statement of "being terrible in the snow". I'm curious if it's my ABS or my tires. If it was a driver problem, I would've had problems with other vehicles in my previous 18 years of winter driving. Or I would've had issues using my wife's minivan with all season tires last winter.

Read through this thread if you'd like to educate yourself.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/77443-help-me-my-abs-almost-killed-me-7.html

 

[Nelsonmd]

I hear you, I grew up in CO and have experience in the snow, and have found the 4runner at times to be worse than my old front wheel drive pontiac grand am. Tires definitely make a big difference, but disabling the ABS also makes a big difference. I find it kicking in on wet when it isn't necessary, on gravel, dirt roads, all kids of places and situations where it really isn't needed. It sometimes kicks in on dry pavement during tight turning like pulling into a parking lot.

My theory is that Toyota basically went cheap on the 4runner ABS and doesn't really have an algorithm for when to set off the ABS or to which wheels to set it off. So basically as far as I can tell, if any 1 wheel slips, ABS kicks in on all 4 wheels. Modern traction control and ABS individually brake each wheel and decide on a braking strategy based on which/how many wheels are slipping.

I disabled my ABS using the (IIRC) grey wire method, taking advantage of my e-locker ECU. If you have an e-locker, then I highly recommend this mod. You can buy a $10 toyota switch that will look 100% stock, install it in about 10 minutes, and you have on-the-fly ABS disable. If you don't have the e-locker, then I still highly recommend wiring in a switch to disable it when needed. Come winter, I will leave ABS off entirely

 

[LPcreation]

Thanks Nelson, great response. I'll check into the "grey wire" mod for the ABS.

 

[Nelsonmd]

Thanks Nelson, great response. I'll check into the "grey wire" mod for the ABS.

Look in the tutorial and documentation V2 thread, I put together an ABS disable master thread, it's just links to many walkthroughs here and on Yotatech; it should have what you need.

 

[GSPRunner]

As far as input goes on which tire I would recommend, I've ran a couple sets of Blizzak DMV1's and they are amazing. I am currently running Yokohama Geolander G072's and they are OK, but nothing compared to the Blizzaks. The only reason I got the Yokohama is they don't make the Blizzak in the tire size I desire.

 

[MrRoo]

I highly recommend the Cooper discovery MS snow tires. Ordering a set in a Week for my 4rummer. They are great in the snow! The winter-force are very good also. Both around the same price. Look at Discount tire direct on eBay. Very good prices on the Coopers. I have always had Blizzaks. My wife's 2010 highlander has blizzaks. It is un believable how good it is in the snow.

 

[MtnT4R]

To ask the obvious, do you typically drive around in the winter in 2wd? As awesome as our trucks are, they are still rear wheel drive which is always going to be terrible in winter conditions. Once you engage the front drive line you gain a huge improvement in control, steering, etc.

To ask the other obvious, when it's snowy/icy do you still drive the speed limit? People seem to think 4wd/awd is the ultimate answer, so correspondingly most vehicles you see in the ditch are 4x4. You still need to slow way down and feather the controls, no sudden breaking or acceleration or cornering.

And yeah, to back up Brians statement, you need to be spending around 160-200 per tire for proper quality. That was always rule number one when I started driving up here, don't EVER skimp on quality tires because that sh*t will kill you.

I like Nokians, Bridgestone Blizzaks, and Haakepelita tires for the winter, but more important than the make is the amount of natural rubber content. Synthetic rubber hardens to something resembling ABS plastic below freezing, whereas natural rubber remains pliable and therefore maintains better contact with the driving surface. It's definitely worth the $$

 

[Super-G]

Last November I put a set of brand new 265/70/16 Cooper Discoverer AT3's on my 02 4R Sport.

Then we proceeded to have a horrible winter here in PA. we had several snowstorms of over 1' and it seemed to snow pretty much every week. My 4R got me to and from work without any issues every time.

I start work at 3:00 AM and I'm usually on the road before the plows have had a chance to do their thing. Again, every time I left my house last year in some serious snow my 4R went through it like it was nothing.

I'd say it's definitely a tire issue.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

I have the Cooper Discovery MS tires on my cummins. And all 4 are studded. They are awesome. And at 14 years old they are around half tread now and still have 90% of their studs.

I put them on at first snow and take them off when I think the snow is done for the season.

 

[the great him]

another vote for spending a bit more and going with the Blizzak DM-V1's. you will not be disappointed. they are a phenomenal tire and if they made them in a 305 id buy them for winter tires.

 

[Scramble]

After owning my truck for 15 years I've never had any problems in the snow. It's actually awesome.
When it snows I'm in 4H & going less than the speed limit. I've always had All-Terrain tires on her but I have a set of General Grabbers HTR's that I use as summer highway tires but by looking at that tread I would not feel safe with those in the snow. I would recommend General Altimax @ 265/70R16.
I bought a set of those (smaller of course) for my 2001 Honda Accord EX Coupe last winter when my 4Runner was getting its engine rebuilt & they got me through a really tough winter here in upstate NY. You do not need to spend a lot of money for good tires. Do your research & look for a sale and/or a rebate.

I've never had a problem with the ABS but then again this was the first vehicle I ever owned with ABS so I guess I'm used to it. Plus I drive a stick so I downshift a lot & my truck slows down quicker than an automatic when I let off the gas.

 

[wallytoo]

Btw $100 a tire is a joke and if you are looking for more traction , which you clearly are then smaller cheapo tires (like size 235x70x16 which is a skinny 29" tire) won't help. Smaller tire doesn't equal better traction, just the opposite actually.

i agree that $100 is a bit optimistic for a good snow tire, i disagree that a smaller tire is worse.

i've got 30 years of northeast winter driving experience in a mulitude of vehicles - front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, all-wheel drive, 4-wheel drive. skinny snow tires work better than wide snow tires, especially on ABS vehicles. i'm not a fan of ABS, either, and disabled it on my subaru legacy for more than 10 years. fortunately, my 1st gen doesn't have ABS, so i didn't have to disable it.

i've run blizzaks, hakkas, hankooks, winterforce, studded generics (magnaforce??), and others, and currently have cooper S/T in the 30x9.5x15 variety. the hakkas, for my money, were the best (and i have a set on my wife's corolla). i like the coopers, though. i can mostly drive in 2wd, even in moderately heavy snow. the worst snow tires i had were wide, which allowed too much flotation, and not enough contact force to stick to the road, and when i ran them, the vehicle was constantly sliding/slipping/slewing, and somewhat hard to stop.

as i recall, the coopers were about $190/tire, mounted and balanced.


to the OP, it may be both the tires and the ABS that are a source for your problems.

wally

 

[wallytoo]

14 years? damn, i wish i did so little driving that i could get 14 years out of a set of snows. i'm lucky to get 3 winters out of them. i put them on in november, and take them off in april.

 

[Scramble]

i agree that $100 is a bit optimistic for a good snow tire, i disagree that a smaller tire is worse.

i've got 30 years of northeast winter driving experience in a mulitude of vehicles - front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, all-wheel drive, 4-wheel drive. skinny snow tires work better than wide snow tires, especially on ABS vehicles. i'm not a fan of ABS, either, and disabled it on my subaru legacy for more than 10 years. fortunately, my 1st gen doesn't have ABS, so i didn't have to disable it.

i've run blizzaks, hakkas, hankooks, winterforce, studded generics (magnaforce??), and others, and currently have cooper S/T in the 30x9.5x15 variety. the hakkas, for my money, were the best (and i have a set on my wife's corolla). i like the coopers, though. i can mostly drive in 2wd, even in moderately heavy snow. the worst snow tires i had were wide, which allowed too much flotation, and not enough contact force to stick to the road, and when i ran them, the vehicle was constantly sliding/slipping/slewing, and somewhat hard to stop.

as i recall, the coopers were about $190/tire, mounted and balanced.


to the OP, it may be both the tires and the ABS that are a source for your problems.

wally

Agreed, a wider tire creates a "snow plow" effect.