Soft Brakes

[stever1000]

My 4runner has had soft brakes since I purchased it a few weeks ago. I assumed it was air in the lines (previous owner replaced front brakes) but now I am wondering if it is the back brakes that weren't adjusted properly. In heavy braking I noticed recently my foot goes all the way to the floor until it feels like it hits the end of travel. This could just be really soft from the air, or its taking that much travel to engage both front and rear brakes enough.

Is there a way to adjust the rear brakes without removing the drum?
Or, is there an indicator to know for sure its either air in the lines or if its the rear brakes?

The bleeder looks rusty and I am hesitant to try to bleed them before a trip in 2 days (bad past experience)

Thanks in advance

 

[99Runnr]

If your foot goes to the floor something needs addressed especially before you go on a trip. Hit the bleeder with pb blaster and use a socket on it to break it so the pressure is even an you're don't side load it using a box wrench.

I would bleed brakes and eliminate that. You can always adjust drums after.

 

[Tyler James Inc]

Woah. Yeah, I would definitely want to get that fixed before going on a trip. Unless it's a trip you can do from the comfort of your own home.
Those bleeders can definitely be stubborn, and fairly easy to round off with a wrench. Like [MENTION=132328]99Runnr[/MENTION] said- use a socket. Also, make sure it's a 10mm 6-point socket.
As far as adjusting the rear brakes- I am not sure. Have you Googled it?

 

[Tyler James Inc]

Lots of info-

It would be a good idea to make sure they're adjusted properly too. I think by not using the e-brake, the rear brakes get out of adjustment.

 

[sunsetrunner]

Or you can use a flare nut wrench to help avoid rounding them off.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

Check for cracked rubber hoses too.

Put a jack under the rear axle and spin a wheel. If they are adjusted properly you will hear slight brake shoe rubbing. If not the rubber plug in the back of the backing plate can be removed and you can adjust your brakes out.

Does your ebrake work? Having that working and the bellcrank adjusted properly is also important.

I've broke off more bleeders using a socket than a wrench.

Spray the threads and inside the hole and hit the bleeder with a propane torch till the tip is red. Then let it cool off a few seconds and try and remove. Open it a little and then close it then open it a little farther and repeat.


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[StreetCreeper]

... Unless it's a trip you can do from the comfort of your own home. ...

Those are the best trips! imp:

 

[Kanoe]

If the bleeders are that rusty, get a new set to put in once you crack them loose. They should just unscrew and then screw the new ones in. They should only be a few bucks. Put the rubber caps on them.

If things are working correctly, pulling up the e-brake handle activates the rear brake adjuster. IF things are working properly. If your e-brake grabs solidly in say 5-7 clicks (I forget the exact spec) then chances are good the rears are adjusted correctly.

Bleeding is a good place to start if you have a helper. My girlfriend hates it. Toyota brake fluid is only $5-6 per bottle at my dealer. It's one of the few consumables I buy there as it doesn't seem to turn black as quick as others I have tried. Good luck.

 

[Tyler James Inc]

Those are the best trips! imp:

I can't say I didn't have you in mind when I said that [emoji23]

I've broke off more bleeders using a socket than a wrench.

Spray the threads and inside the hole and hit the bleeder with a propane torch till the tip is red. Then let it cool off a few seconds and try and remove. Open it a little and then close it then open it a little farther and repeat.

Wow; I've never had one break on me at all- only getting rounded off from using an open-end wrench. I've also never had them so stubborn to need to hear them up or soak them in penetrant! I would lose my mind if I had a bleeder break off on me.

OP- keep us updated with your findings.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

I can't say I didn't have you in mind when I said that [emoji23]Wow; I've never had one break on me at all- only getting rounded off from using an open-end wrench. I've also never had them so stubborn to need to hear them up or soak them in penetrant! I would lose my mind if I had a bleeder break off on me.

OP- keep us updated with your findings.

Rubber caps are a must in the rust belt. And they don't need to be balls tight. But yea, I broke a few with a 1/4 drive ratchet. You can't see it starting to twist until it's too late. It's hollow and feels the same weather it's turning out or twisting off. Now I only use a box end wrench. And if it feels like the bleeder is going to round off I hit it with heat. I had to heat all four on the 97 project I put the engine in. No rubber caps and way over tight. I usually purge my brake fluid every two or three years or when the fluid turns brown.


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[gamefreakgc]

Bleed the brakes with the engine on. Makes it way easier, you don't have the pump the brakes just press and hold (and air cannot go back in the lines) and the brake booster/pump (depending what year you have) does the rest.

Check and fill the master cylinder after each wheel, you don't want that side sucking in air.

 

[99Runnr]

The OP seems less then excited about turning wrenches, whether you are mechanically capable or not, the situation here is this;

You need to bleed the brakes. Rear brake bias is something like 30%, even less with air in the system. You could have metal on metal in those drums and it would stop far before pedal at the floor if the brakes were bled properly and good pads up front.

You seem to acknowledge there is rust or something on the bleeders if I remember correctly. Hit it with PB blaster and give it some time to sink in. As a couple of us mentioned, socket and ratchet is the safest way to break them loose and here is why.

You can use a wrench or flare wrench, but how does one control the stresses of a stubborn bleeder screw with a thin ass body to brace? Versus a socket/ratchet body to control angular stresses at the screw? Properly braced, the ratchet gives you more control, more power, and much better chances of loosening a stuck bleeder.

 

[stever1000]

If your foot goes to the floor something needs addressed especially before you go on a trip. Hit the bleeder with pb blaster and use a socket on it to break it so the pressure is even an you're don't side load it using a box wrench.

I would bleed brakes and eliminate that. You can always adjust drums after.

Thanks, this is the information I was after.

Check for cracked rubber hoses too.

Put a jack under the rear axle and spin a wheel. If they are adjusted properly you will hear slight brake shoe rubbing. If not the rubber plug in the back of the backing plate can be removed and you can adjust your brakes out.

Does your ebrake work? Having that working and the bellcrank adjusted properly is also important.

I've broke off more bleeders using a socket than a wrench.

Spray the threads and inside the hole and hit the bleeder with a propane torch till the tip is red. Then let it cool off a few seconds and try and remove. Open it a little and then close it then open it a little farther and repeat.

Yes the e-brake works well, which is why I was confused whether the rear brakes are adjusted propoerly or not. I read if I use the e-brake it automatically adjusts the rear brake. Is it safe to assume if I continue to use the e-brake, it will take out any "slack" there might be in the rear? It's hard to tell since the rear does such a low percentage of the stopping

Bleed the brakes with the engine on. Makes it way easier, you don't have the pump the brakes just press and hold (and air cannot go back in the lines) and the brake booster/pump (depending what year you have) does the rest.

Check and fill the master cylinder after each wheel, you don't want that side sucking in air.

Perfect, I will convince the girlfriend to help me tonight, should be interesting with the engine running.

The OP seems less then excited about turning wrenches, whether you are mechanically capable or not, the situation here is this;

You need to bleed the brakes. Rear brake bias is something like 30%, even less with air in the system. You could have metal on metal in those drums and it would stop far before pedal at the floor if the brakes were bled properly and good pads up front.

I'm mechanically capable, but bad luck follows me. If theres a chance all 4 bleeders break on me, chances are it will happen tonight.



Thanks everyone for the encouragement, I will bleed all 4 night (since its a system, I can't just bleed the front)

 

[19963.4lsr5]

You should start with the simple brake bleed and use a turkey baster and suck all the old fluid out you can. Then do a simple gravity bleed (depending on your year members here say you may have a pump) till clear fluid comes out.

With all the bleeders closed have your helper sit in truck and then you open a bleeder. After its open tell her to push the brake pedal. Close the bleeder before she releases the pedal. Then tell her to release the brake and repeat. If you pump the brakes before opening the bleeder you can take a few air bubbles and turn them into hundreds of tiny ones.

While your bleeding look for cracks on the front and rear rubber lines.


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[stever1000]

Bled all 4 brakes, installed speed bleeders instead of new bleeders. Made the job easy. Soaked the bleeders in penetrating fluid and they all came out okay.

Going for a spin around the block tomorrow - fingers crossed this was it. There was a lot of bubbles while bleeding, most probably from removing the old bleeder and swapping in the new one, but I did several pumps until the clear hose had no signs of bubbles

 

[99Runnr]

Good deal man. Glad they came out ok, should make a big improvement for you from the sounds of it.

 

[stever1000]

Good deal man. Glad they came out ok, should make a big improvement for you from the sounds of it.

Oh ya, and the socket+ratchet trick helped a lot! :thumb:

 

[babowc]

Let us know how it goes! I have the same issue, manual bleeding did absolutely nothing. I'm beginning to think it's air in the ABS system.

 

[stever1000]

Still really soft. When I am at a stop light my foot travels far before it stops fully

What to check next?

 

[99Runnr]

Master cylinder. Can you pump the brakes up? Sitting, with engine running, push pedal, release quickly and compress again, are you able to build pedal pressure?