Spring rate: King 550lb vs Elka 700lb

[nimby]

How can there be such a big discrepancy in the recommended "stock" spring rate from each of these companies?

By all accounts, the Elka's are said to ride really nice, although I have no personal experience. You would think they'd ride like a dump truck with that coil.

Does it all come down to the way each shock is valved?

 

[MAST4R]

How can there be such a big discrepancy in the recommended "stock" spring rate from each of these companies?

By all accounts, the Elka's are said to ride really nice, although I have no personal experience. You would think they'd ride like a dump truck with that coil.

Does it all come down to the way each shock is valved?

That's a great question.

I know that Ironman is probably the biggest "offender" when it comes to heavy spring rates. But people seem to like the ride. I also know that Ironman shocks are a different design and I personally suspect that they are adventure oriented rather than performance oriented so the springs end up doing most of the work.

Now speaking from experience:

I know that Bilstein standard 6112 springs are 550 or even less. They are not 600 which is how vendors advertise them. My source is a better one than any vendor. On 550, the 6112 are almost as bouncy as stock though the ride is superb on road. While the shocks come close to bottoming out all the time if you push them offroad, they actually don't seem to bottom out: close but without the hit. So I think they have some sort of internal bump stop. But the performance is atrocious: the front skid plate hits rocks all the time, same as stock.

Move on to 650lb springs and it is a whole different truck. The Cadillac street ride becomes sporty but not uncomfortable on my Mickey Thompsons. The offroad performance is now serious, there is no bottoming out and no hitting the front skid plate.

However, 700lb on stock weight+300lb worth of steel armor underneath/sliders, would be a complete overkill with the same shocks.

Now back to King on 550. I don't care how powerful the shock is, the 550 won't cut it in the desert or even in rock crawling with off the shelf valving (at least not without adjusters OR a very stiff valving).

The very fact that people rave about how those ride on road is already symptomatic of what would happen offroad. I have taken a hard look at Kings and watched everything Ben has had to say but I have not had a set.

As for Elka, what is their description? Do they advertise for adventure or performance?

I understand that people want to try different setups, but with Bilstein, Fox, King, Icon, Radflo all in California and the heart of the desert, I am not sure why go for something from Canada for this particular use.

Final note: I have also run stock shocks on Dobs 600kb springs on Elephant Hill, Kamikaze, and some other trails. The springs can definitely do much of the work in crawling--and well. But at some speed, like on Boxcar on that same trip, which has sandy, fast sections, control is compromised to the point of being a problem. Of course, that's an extreme example but it gives you an idea.

 

[nimby]

That's a great question.

I know that Ironman is probably the biggest "offender" when it comes to heavy spring rates. But people seem to like the ride. I also know that Ironman shocks are a different design and I personally suspect that they are adventure oriented rather than performance oriented so the springs end up doing most of the work.

Now speaking from experience:

I know that Bilstein standard 6112 springs are 550 or even less. They are not 600 which is how vendors advertise them. My source is a better one than any vendor. On 550, the 6112 are almost as bouncy as stock though the ride is superb on road. While the shocks come close to bottoming out all the time if you push them offroad, they actually don't seem to bottom out: close but without the hit. So I think they have some sort of internal bump stop. But the performance is atrocious: the front skid plate hits rocks all the time, same as stock.

Move on to 650lb springs and it is a whole different truck. The Cadillac street ride becomes sporty but not uncomfortable on my Mickey Thompsons. The offroad performance is now serious, there is no bottoming out and no hitting the front skid plate.

However, 700lb on stock weight+300lb worth of steel armor underneath/sliders, would be a complete overkill with the same shocks.

Now back to King on 550. I don't care how powerful the shock is, the 550 won't cut it in the desert or even in rock crawling with off the shelf valving (at least not without adjusters OR a very stiff valving).

The very fact that people rave about how those ride on road is already symptomatic of what would happen offroad. I have taken a hard look at Kings and watched everything Ben has had to say but I have not had a set.

As for Elka, what is their description? Do they advertise for adventure or performance?

I understand that people want to try different setups, but with Bilstein, Fox, King, Icon, Radflo all in California and the heart of the desert, I am not sure why go for something from Canada for this particular use.

Final note: I have also run stock shocks on Dobs 600kb springs on Elephant Hill, Kamikaze, and some other trails. The springs can definitely do much of the work in crawling--and well. But at some speed, like on Boxcar on that same trip, which has sandy, fast sections, control is compromised to the point of being a problem. Of course, that's an extreme example but it gives you an idea.

Thanks for the response and providing your experiences.

Elka advertises a high performance tune above all, but they also claim improved comfort for casual driving........so a bit of everything, I guess? Just seems wild to run that high of a spring rate without additional weight.

2.5 DC RESERVOIR Shock Absorbers for Trucks & SUV >> Elka Suspension Inc

Yes, good point about Ironman. Another company that has REALLY high spring rates but suprisingly has good reviews from people who own them.

Of course there's always the phenomenon that people like whatever they buy. Since both Ironman and Elka are fairly new in the 4Runner market here in the US, perhaps people aren't over the honeymoon phase.

But then again, perhaps the valving is such that they're making these higher spring rates work somehow??

 

[honda250xtitan]

That's a great question.

I know that Ironman is probably the biggest "offender" when it comes to heavy spring rates. But people seem to like the ride. I also know that Ironman shocks are a different design and I personally suspect that they are adventure oriented rather than performance oriented so the springs end up doing most of the work.

Now speaking from experience:

I know that Bilstein standard 6112 springs are 550 or even less. They are not 600 which is how vendors advertise them. My source is a better one than any vendor. On 550, the 6112 are almost as bouncy as stock though the ride is superb on road. While the shocks come close to bottoming out all the time if you push them offroad, they actually don't seem to bottom out: close but without the hit. So I think they have some sort of internal bump stop. But the performance is atrocious: the front skid plate hits rocks all the time, same as stock.

Move on to 650lb springs and it is a whole different truck. The Cadillac street ride becomes sporty but not uncomfortable on my Mickey Thompsons. The offroad performance is now serious, there is no bottoming out and no hitting the front skid plate.

However, 700lb on stock weight+300lb worth of steel armor underneath/sliders, would be a complete overkill with the same shocks.

Now back to King on 550. I don't care how powerful the shock is, the 550 won't cut it in the desert or even in rock crawling with off the shelf valving (at least not without adjusters OR a very stiff valving).

The very fact that people rave about how those ride on road is already symptomatic of what would happen offroad. I have taken a hard look at Kings and watched everything Ben has had to say but I have not had a set.

As for Elka, what is their description? Do they advertise for adventure or performance?

I understand that people want to try different setups, but with Bilstein, Fox, King, Icon, Radflo all in California and the heart of the desert, I am not sure why go for something from Canada for this particular use.

Final note: I have also run stock shocks on Dobs 600kb springs on Elephant Hill, Kamikaze, and some other trails. The springs can definitely do much of the work in crawling--and well. But at some speed, like on Boxcar on that same trip, which has sandy, fast sections, control is compromised to the point of being a problem. Of course, that's an extreme example but it gives you an idea.

Can confirm. Kings are great on road in stock king setup. But my wheel wells and bump stop marks show how quick you blow thru the travel when you push them. Baja really showed their shortcomings being on a soft spring. Would i switch to 700lb? naw. I think a revalve would be enough. The goal is also to add hydralic bump stops up front. Cut the stock crap off, weld a can on and run 2" stroke King bumps.

It's a daily driven mommy mobile. No way i'm gonna trash the plush street ride for our once a year baja trips by being oversprung. lol I'd rather push the valving to the max than jump spring rates and loose my tooth fillings.


for 99% of people i think the kings are perfect as is from the factory. Even short trips theyre fine. but 100's of miles off road you really push them to the limit especially cause its such a short shock to begin with. but thats another can of worms

 

[NW.OH.T4R]

Can confirm. Kings are great on road in stock king setup. But my wheel wells and bump stop marks show how quick you blow thru the travel when you push them. Baja really showed their shortcomings being on a soft spring. Would i switch to 700lb? naw. I think a revalve would be enough. The goal is also to add hydralic bump stops up front. Cut the stock crap off, weld a can on and run 2" stroke King bumps.

It's a daily driven mommy mobile. No way i'm gonna trash the plush street ride for our once a year baja trips by being oversprung. lol I'd rather push the valving to the max than jump spring rates and loose my tooth fillings.


for 99% of people i think the kings are perfect as is from the factory. Even short trips theyre fine. but 100's of miles off road you really push them to the limit especially cause its such a short shock to begin with. but thats another can of worms

It’s real world experience and feedback like this that has me questioning the Eibach springs for Pro Fox shocks. The road manners are pretty solid with the OEM springs. I think the 550lb Kings would be ideal up front as I have no plans for added weight. The new spring perch design for 21 makes it challenging (impossible) to go aftermarket other than the Eibach.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MAST4R]

But then again, perhaps the valving is such that they're making these higher spring rates work somehow??

That has me thinking that the shock needs to be really soft. Softer shocks that last forever because the heavy springs do the work. So adventure as opposed to performance.

A stiffly valved shock on a 700lb spring would be unbearable on almost all rigs.

 

[mrblah]

In an ideal world, we would have custom made springs and shocks matched to each other based on our vehicle weight, but we don't live in an ideal world.

My experience has taught me that I rather be oversprung than undersprung in almost every driving environment, but it is at the expense of on-road comfort.

So the compromise is performance vs comfort, unless you find that perfect happy middle ground. I think 600 to 650 is a safer choice for most people and allows for more versatility..if they were given a choice.

 

[BackOff]

A 4th gen so a grain of salt.
No front swaybar.
Full steel skids, nerf bars and front/rear bumpers. (Edit...nerf bars=Rocksliders, guess i am not bump passing...lol.)
5100lbs-5200lbs.

I had a FJC 660lbs. Front coils for a bit. Rancho9000xl, Was nice on the street but didnt work offroad.
Slamed the bumps and hammered the driver side fender with tire...now it sits above the hood.

After the switch to the Elkas and the 700lbs coils i dont slam the bumpstops so much offroad.

It is really firm onroad and under a 1/2 tank of gas it is very firm.
Not to the point of obnoxious though.
Loaded for bear it kicks ass.
No regrets.

 

[honda250xtitan]

no sway bar helps a ton with heavier springs too.

 

[honda250xtitan]

In an ideal world, we would have custom made springs and shocks matched to each other based on our vehicle weight, but we don't live in an ideal world.

My experience has taught me that I rather be oversprung than undersprung in almost every driving environment, but it is at the expense of on-road comfort.

So the compromise is performance vs comfort, unless you find that perfect happy middle ground. I think 600 to 650 is a safer choice for most people and allows for more versatility..if they were given a choice.

i think i'm the opposite. i'll take under sprung but over valved. maybe thats wrong though?

I swapped rear springs to toytec HD's and cranked the kings to the stiffest stetting. once all loaded up for our week long trip it was plush offroad. bottoming out was done with hydraulic bump stops as well. zero bucking. those toytec HD's have some bad feedback but with a quality shock controlling it and enough weight to soften it, they were perfect. So, similar to your "ideal setup" Which Accutune can do for you. Valve the shocks according to weight. i'm sure if given spring specs they'll also adjust. The best thing is to take it to the desert with someone who can re valve on the spot and dial it all in. BUT these are daily driven minivans for the most part, kinda overkill IMO.

 

[MAST4R]

My experience has taught me that I rather be oversprung than undersprung in almost every driving environment, but it is at the expense of on-road comfort.

.

i think i'm the opposite. i'll take under sprung but over valved. maybe thats wrong though?

.

I'd like to know from personal experience but I have better uses for money than paying for constant car mods.

Clearly, racers go for valving with softest possible spring. On the opposite extreme, endurance uses like military seem to prioritize, well, longevity, and so stiff springs that can essentially make poorly working shocks irrelevant.

In normal use, both would allow going as fast as reasonable in a non-race vehicle (so long as the shocks are powerful enough to control the springs) so I guess it is ultimately a matter of preference for us.

Mine has logged 209 runs of 154 trails in 3 years, so not really used as a minivan Over the last 18 months, I have commuted to work, all the 12 RT miles, like maybe once every ten days. I don't commute daily anyway. I use our Subaru for grocery getting and the like. So even my Phoenix area driving is chiefly made of attempts to get out, LOL.

 

[aaron_clt]

i have the elka 2.5 DC's, you can buy from different distributors with the option for 650lb springs which is what i did. Elka does say they tune for the 700lb but until i add some weight i figured it wouldnt hurt to go down a tad to the 650s. i think it right great form my experience

 

[4RNEWBIE]

I currently have the 6112/5160 combo, with 700lb front springs and Icon 2" in the rear. Initial conversation with a Vendor ended with a recommendation of FOX DSC and 600/650lb front springs. Was told for more accurate assessment, get the truck weighed if possible.

Went and got it weighed (2960lbs fr, 2780 rear--unloaded, no RTT, no recovery/camping gear, dogs, passengers, etc). Vendor stated that they would valve the shocks based on weight, driving terrain/conditions, and that I could reuse my 700lb springs. We'll see how they ride once here...

 

[nimby]

I currently have the 6112/5160 combo, with 700lb front springs and Icon 2" in the rear. Initial conversation with a Vendor ended with a recommendation of FOX DSC and 600/650lb front springs. Was told for more accurate assessment, get the truck weighed if possible.

Went and got it weighed (2960lbs fr, 2780 rear--unloaded, no RTT, no recovery/camping gear, dogs, passengers, etc). Vendor stated that they would valve the shocks based on weight, driving terrain/conditions, and that I could reuse my 700lb springs. We'll see how they ride once here...

Why did you go with 700lb springs in the first place?

Don't most 6112 owners with a stock weight vehicle go with a 600lb spring?

 

[MAST4R]

I currently have the 6112/5160 combo, with 700lb front springs and Icon 2" in the rear. Initial conversation with a Vendor ended with a recommendation of FOX DSC and 600/650lb front springs. Was told for more accurate assessment, get the truck weighed if possible.

Went and got it weighed (2960lbs fr, 2780 rear--unloaded, no RTT, no recovery/camping gear, dogs, passengers, etc). Vendor stated that they would valve the shocks based on weight, driving terrain/conditions, and that I could reuse my 700lb springs. We'll see how they ride once here...

I don't understand this post.

The 6112 cannot be re-valved.

They don't come with 700lb springs option.

Or is that about going from 6112 to Elka on 700?

 

[nimby]

I don't understand this post.

The 6112 cannot be re-valved.

They don't come with 700lb springs option.

Or is that about going from 6112 to Elka on 700?

Maybe he's talking about a Fox DSC with a 700lb spring?

 

[mrblah]

i think i'm the opposite. i'll take under sprung but over valved. maybe thats wrong though?

I swapped rear springs to toytec HD's and cranked the kings to the stiffest stetting. once all loaded up for our week long trip it was plush offroad. bottoming out was done with hydraulic bump stops as well. zero bucking. those toytec HD's have some bad feedback but with a quality shock controlling it and enough weight to soften it, they were perfect. So, similar to your "ideal setup" Which Accutune can do for you. Valve the shocks according to weight. i'm sure if given spring specs they'll also adjust. The best thing is to take it to the desert with someone who can re valve on the spot and dial it all in. BUT these are daily driven minivans for the most part, kinda overkill IMO.

As you mentioned, undersprung but overvalved is the ideal setup. However, most people don't end up with that ideal setup because we all go out like dumbasses and buy the suspension first, and then add weight and it becomes undersprung and undervalved (is that a word). I managed to even blow a front shock and eventually got my whole suspension overhauled and rebuilt, so I speak from experience..lol.

So for most people who do things assbackwards like i did, and buy a suspension setup before knowing what their final weight is....i'd go oversprung every time, since we tend to add weight overtime..not lose it...(like my ever growing waistline). Also, i found that a quick fix to the firmness while offroading is lower the tire pressure a little bit more..or drive faster...or add more weight. There are no quick fixes to a vehicle that is under sprung and undervalved...it just feels and drives broken when off the pavement.

FYI...obviously, not talking about the ideal setup..more emphasizing what mistakes most people just getting into offroading make when choosing suspension, and the compromise they need to make if they have no idea what their final weight is going to be.

 

[mrblah]

I'd like to know from personal experience but I have better uses for money than paying for constant car mods.

Clearly, racers go for valving with softest possible spring. On the opposite extreme, endurance uses like military seem to prioritize, well, longevity, and so stiff springs that can essentially make poorly working shocks irrelevant.

In normal use, both would allow going as fast as reasonable in a non-race vehicle (so long as the shocks are powerful enough to control the springs) so I guess it is ultimately a matter of preference for us.

Mine has logged 209 runs of 154 trails in 3 years, so not really used as a minivan Over the last 18 months, I have commuted to work, all the 12 RT miles, like maybe once every ten days. I don't commute daily anyway. I use our Subaru for grocery getting and the like. So even my Phoenix area driving is chiefly made of attempts to get out, LOL.

Same here..i dont want to constantly upgrade my upgrades or accessorize my accessories. When i make changes to my vehicle, its all about compromises that I can live with, or what i have future plans i have for the vehicle. After I had my suspension rebuilt...i don't want to do that again in the near future...its god damn expensive lol.

 

[4RNEWBIE]

I don't understand this post.

The 6112 cannot be re-valved.

They don't come with 700lb springs option.

Or is that about going from 6112 to Elka on 700?

I changed the springs on the 6112s to 700lb. This time around, I'm going Fox DSC with 700lb springs

 

[4RNEWBIE]

Why did you go with 700lb springs in the first place?

Don't most 6112 owners with a stock weight vehicle go with a 600lb spring?

Did you see the part about my weight? Extra weight is why I switched to 700lb springs back in 17...