Suspension lifts - Realities and capabilities

[Rynooo]

I'll give you the truth. Yes, it's going to piss a bunch of people off, but hey, the truth hurts. Warning - Long read ahead:

First, let me dispense with the "I'd rather have it and not need it" "when it comes to suspension" crap. Why be selective if this is your mantra? You should wear two pairs of pants and socks every day then. You should have a spare 4Runner sitting at home. Hell, you should have two identical homes - you know - just in case one blows away. This excuse is just a way to justify things for some people. The truth? Here you go:

Most mod their 4Runner for one reason: Looks. That's it. It looks cool (I agree) and it fits their "image" of who they think they are when they look in the mirror. They mod it not because they NEED to but because they WANT to. In reality, even HAVING a 4Runner for most people is way overkill. What do they think... that the nice divided highway that leads to their manicured subdivision is suddenly going to turn into mush? Zombies? Who knows, but truthfully, 99% of the people, and I think that is an understatement, would do just fine with a Highlander. But they WANT a 4Runner and that's fine. I just wish they would admit it. So, now that we have got the "bro" element out of the way, on to modding.

Larger tires are the ONLY way you get increased ground clearance. Don't buy into the BS hype. Lifting increases your STATIC (sitting still) ground clearance. So, if you want to improve your approach angle why you are sitting still, then by all means lift it for that reason! Your suspension is dynamic - meaning it moves through a range. If you only lift it and do not install bigger tires, then when your suspension compresses while hitting a bump off road then it momentarily is back where it was before lifting! So that rock you thought you could clear by lifting? You might still hit it. Some will tell you "285's are the way to go! Much better than stock!" Well, why did they stop at 285's? Why not run 295's and they will go further. Why stop there? go to 35's and they will go even further. Wait! Let's go to 37's! I can go anywhere! Well, you can, until the guy with 40's goes even further...
Those who want to lift to clear larger tires? If you want to have your tires clear throughout the full suspension range you STILL have to mod the inner fender, BMC maybe, mud flap delete, aftermarket UCA's, etc. Let's move on.

If you do a suspension lift, be prepared to:
Accept that your vehicle will make more noises
Accept that your vehicle will not be as reliable or durable
Accept that your vehicle will require more maintenance
Accept that your vehicle will NOT ride or handle the same on the highway.
Accept that your vehicle will not be as efficient on the highway
Accept that your vehicle could require even more mods to "fix" the mods you just did.
Accept that any issues involving a myriad of suspension and driveline components COULD be denied for warranty consideration if there is a problem.

Now, with that said, the haters are definitely going to hate, but the above is the truth. Well then, why would you even mod or lift? Well,

Lifting, even though it is the best mod visually, is only one minor component of making the 4Runner more off road worthy. To truly make it really good off road, you need:
Skids
Bumpers
Lift
Associated Suspension Components like UCA's
Tires
Recovery gear

You are right to assume that opinions will be biased. That's natural. If I spent $5K on something, I will want it to be the best thing ever, and even if it's not, I will still tell people it's the best thing ever! Human nature. I'm looking at a new mountain bike that's around $5K. Trust me, it will be the best bike ever and I will tell everyone it is when I get it (even if it's not).

Truthfully, lifting, just lifting alone, does very little to help off road and only hurts you on road. But... it looks really good lol. Leveling? Worst idea ever. Purely for looks, terrible for performance like vehicle loading.

Now, why and I writing this, this heretic blasphemy on an enthusiast's forum? Because it's simply realistic. I started modding vehicles almost 40 years ago. I have almost (and have) ruined vehicles from being daily drivers by modding. I have taken perfectly good vehicles and, while making them off road kings, made them big fat pigs with horrible road manners. I have also take vehicles and made them LOOK like they could tackle Dakar.. and ruined their road manners and efficiency in the process.

I go off road more than most and some of it is for my job. My 4Runner is stock and goes off road better than just about any other vehicle in stock configuration. As a matter of fact, my 4Runner will go places that I don't have the courage to take it! Stock.

The one thing my stock 4Runner does not do as well stock? Looks. It does not look as cool as other vehicles, which is why most here mod theirs to begin with.

There you go. I'm not selling anything and I have no reason to lie or justify anything to you. All I have is experience. Evaluate (truthfully) what you really want to do with your 4Runner. Chances are, stock will be just fine and there is no shame in stacking rocks and taking the bypass every now and then. You will appreciate this when you are taking that 2K road trip comfortably and getting 20 mpg and not hearing any creaks and groans every time you hit a speed bump.

 

[Throwback]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]

That should probably be some kind of sticky on the main page. :cheers:


Maybe you should keep on that topic and expand into what you can and should do to your 4Runner to increase its capability and functionality without screwing it up. It sounds like it might be a very short list though. opcorn:

 

[JPOVS]

I've never heard anyone say they want less, but I have heard people say they wish they had more.
Human nature too want more.
With what the op wants and his concerns, I would say stay stock.

 

[2011T4RLE]

It comes down to spring rate, shock dampening, and wheel travel when it comes to ride quality and performance. If you can find a manufacturer that has put in the R&D on a shock dyno to match their springs to proper shock valving then even on a heavy spring the ride will be smooth. I have 650 pound springs on the front of mine, and even though that is not overly heavy, it is still much heavier than stock, but due to the shock being tuned correctly it rides better than the OEM XREAS did and we all can agree that is a nice riding suspension.

I understand your desire to get the vehicle off the ground more to avoid damage. If you want something properly tuned that will not break the bank there are options out there. The OEM TRD Pro suspension is great with a mild lift already there OEM. Toytec has their basic 3 inch kit that rides nicely. There are so many options and what everyone feels is comfortable or appropriate for them just varies immensely. You may not ever really find the answers you are looking for.

 

[1engineer]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]

That should probably be some kind of sticky on the main page. :cheers:


Maybe you should keep on that topic and expand into what you can and should do to your 4Runner to increase its capability and functionality without screwing it up. It sounds like it might be a very short list though. opcorn:

Mandatory - Good Tires. AT or similar.
Mandatory - Gloves. To protect hands when stacking rock...
Option - Sliders.
Option - Gas tank skid.
Mandatory - Off Road Driving Skills Course, or Prior Experience Screwing Up So You Can Now Pick A Good Line...
Mandatory - Basic Recovery Gear. Keep it in a box. Put it in the 4Runner when you are going to go off road.

That is all.

 

[sn_85]

I'll give you the truth. Yes, it's going to piss a bunch of people off, but hey, the truth hurts. Warning - Long read ahead:

Well I'm pissed and offended. You should banned. Oh wait...

 

[4Reak Show]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]
Next you'll be telling us we don't need lockers or winches or exo-cages...
Or worse: you'll say that the DRIVER is often the issue with getting stuck or wrecking a truck (which of course is totally f*cking true and VASTLY underrated as the common cause for most people's issues)

Most would rather just jump on the gas and mindlessly romp over random obstacles hoping for it all to work out cuz they spent the big $$ on the fancy springs.
Assuming responsibility and having awareness are dying attributes among these damn humans.

 

[cdiset]

Here is my 2 cents, for what its worth.

I have a 2017 with KDSS, which was amazing the day I drove it off the lot on January 18th. Im not sure how the stock tires do in the dirt because I drove straight to my tire guy for STOCK SIZED BFG KO2's. There was a slight difference in the ride feel with these tires, but still very comfortable on road.

About a month ago, I installed 5100's all around, set at 1.75" with the front OEM coils. In the back I put Wheeler T13 coils. Even if you never off road, the 5100's are worth the upgrade just for on road comfort and handling. Off road, with the minor lift acquired from my setup, there is enough of a decrease in impact underneath, that I find its worth it. I know the differential is the lowest point, but it has remained undamaged. I do make an effort to not to cross the tallest rocks dead center.

My stock skid plates are pretty hammered, most occurred before the 5100's were installed. Plus I am probably picking better lines now that I have a few miles under my belt. I think new skids are in my future anyway.

I installed rock sliders as well, that I have only used to get my pants dirty getting out of my rig.

 

[wfo9]

OP.. to your question.. just stay stock. The fact that you have all these concerns and apprehension... probably best to stay stock.

I had 285s and OME lift on my truck for the first year or two. It was a little harsh compared to what I have now, but I liked it and had 0 complaints. It's really different from person to person... No single answer or vehicle meets everyone's needs.

 

[wfo9]

I'll give you the truth. Yes, it's going to piss a bunch of people off, but hey, the truth hurts. Warning - Long read ahead:

First, let me dispense with the "I'd rather have it and not need it" "when it comes to suspension" crap. Why be selective if this is your mantra? You should wear two pairs of pants and socks every day then. You should have a spare 4Runner sitting at home. Hell, you should have two identical homes - you know - just in case one blows away. This excuse is just a way to justify things for some people. The truth? Here you go:

Most mod their 4Runner for one reason: Looks. That's it. It looks cool (I agree) and it fits their "image" of who they think they are when they look in the mirror. They mod it not because they NEED to but because they WANT to. In reality, even HAVING a 4Runner for most people is way overkill. What do they think... that the nice divided highway that leads to their manicured subdivision is suddenly going to turn into mush? Zombies? Who knows, but truthfully, 99% of the people, and I think that is an understatement, would do just fine with a Highlander. But they WANT a 4Runner and that's fine. I just wish they would admit it. So, now that we have got the "bro" element out of the way, on to modding.

Larger tires are the ONLY way you get increased ground clearance. Don't buy into the BS hype. Lifting increases your STATIC (sitting still) ground clearance. So, if you want to improve your approach angle why you are sitting still, then by all means lift it for that reason! Your suspension is dynamic - meaning it moves through a range. If you only lift it and do not install bigger tires, then when your suspension compresses while hitting a bump off road then it momentarily is back where it was before lifting! So that rock you thought you could clear by lifting? You might still hit it. Some will tell you "285's are the way to go! Much better than stock!" Well, why did they stop at 285's? Why not run 295's and they will go further. Why stop there? go to 35's and they will go even further. Wait! Let's go to 37's! I can go anywhere! Well, you can, until the guy with 40's goes even further...
Those who want to lift to clear larger tires? If you want to have your tires clear throughout the full suspension range you STILL have to mod the inner fender, BMC maybe, mud flap delete, aftermarket UCA's, etc. Let's move on.

If you do a suspension lift, be prepared to:
Accept that your vehicle will make more noises
Accept that your vehicle will not be as reliable or durable
Accept that your vehicle will require more maintenance
Accept that your vehicle will NOT ride or handle the same on the highway.
Accept that your vehicle will not be as efficient on the highway
Accept that your vehicle could require even more mods to "fix" the mods you just did.
Accept that any issues involving a myriad of suspension and driveline components COULD be denied for warranty consideration if there is a problem.

Now, with that said, the haters are definitely going to hate, but the above is the truth. Well then, why would you even mod or lift? Well,

Lifting, even though it is the best mod visually, is only one minor component of making the 4Runner more off road worthy. To truly make it really good off road, you need:
Skids
Bumpers
Lift
Associated Suspension Components like UCA's
Tires
Recovery gear

You are right to assume that opinions will be biased. That's natural. If I spent $5K on something, I will want it to be the best thing ever, and even if it's not, I will still tell people it's the best thing ever! Human nature. I'm looking at a new mountain bike that's around $5K. Trust me, it will be the best bike ever and I will tell everyone it is when I get it (even if it's not).

Truthfully, lifting, just lifting alone, does very little to help off road and only hurts you on road. But... it looks really good lol. Leveling? Worst idea ever. Purely for looks, terrible for performance like vehicle loading.

Now, why and I writing this, this heretic blasphemy on an enthusiast's forum? Because it's simply realistic. I started modding vehicles almost 40 years ago. I have almost (and have) ruined vehicles from being daily drivers by modding. I have taken perfectly good vehicles and, while making them off road kings, made them big fat pigs with horrible road manners. I have also take vehicles and made them LOOK like they could tackle Dakar.. and ruined their road manners and efficiency in the process.

I go off road more than most and some of it is for my job. My 4Runner is stock and goes off road better than just about any other vehicle in stock configuration. As a matter of fact, my 4Runner will go places that I don't have the courage to take it! Stock.

The one thing my stock 4Runner does not do as well stock? Looks. It does not look as cool as other vehicles, which is why most here mod theirs to begin with.

There you go. I'm not selling anything and I have no reason to lie or justify anything to you. All I have is experience. Evaluate (truthfully) what you really want to do with your 4Runner. Chances are, stock will be just fine and there is no shame in stacking rocks and taking the bypass every now and then. You will appreciate this when you are taking that 2K road trip comfortably and getting 20 mpg and not hearing any creaks and groans every time you hit a speed bump.

But, if you are like me, you will STILL look at your 4Runner sitting in the driveway and think "Damn, it would look too good I I just lifted it and put some different wheels on it..." so far I have been able to fight that demon...

I agree with some of this. Modifications do bring about reliability issues, especially for those not mechanically inclined or up for a challenge. Stock is best, unless you are going to go out and attempt things where stock just won't cut it...

The part about a lift not being a big improvement in clearance is simply wrong. There are 3 main things at play in a vehicle's capability offroad. Traction, Clearance, and Stability. These are the laws of physics.

A proper suspension lift can improve all of these. Ground clearance is only one aspect of clearance.. Approach, departure, and break-over are more important in technical terrain.

If anyone thinks a stock 4runner is so amazing offRoad.. I beg you to come run a few trails with me and prove it. I'll take video and post it here. You won't even get past the first obstacle...been proven over and over again. These are the laws of physics. Now do most people need or even utilize that capability.... Nope. Is it "smart" to modify your daily driver and expect no downside.... Duh....

Like everything in life... it all balances out in the end. There is no right or wrong answer, just depends on the individual.

 

[Throwback]

OP.. to your question.. just stay stock. The fact that you have all these concerns and apprehension... probably best to stay stock.

I had 285s and OME lift on my truck for the first year or two. It was a little harsh compared to what I have now, but I liked it and had 0 complaints. It's really different from person to person... No single answer or vehicle meets everyone's needs.

I wouldn't call it apprehension, rather trying to educate myself on all the details instead of just following the herd mentality.

I made a joke a while back when somebody asked what they needed to upgrade to take their stock Trail off roading. I said 3" front coil spacers, yellow laminex on the fog lights, 15% window tint, KO2s, and a lightbar was the bare minimum.

Obviously it's tongue in cheek but upgrading expensive vehicles should be well thought out, not done just because lots of people do it on a forum. I tend to over-analyze everything, but it's how I educate myself and make a smart choice.



Anyway, with what you've said about stock 4Runners following you on trails, what would you say is the best basic setup if you had to put together a good do-all rig? Suspension, tires, armor, etc.

 

[sn_85]

I wouldn't call it apprehension, rather trying to educate myself on all the details instead of just following the herd mentality.



I made a joke a while back when somebody asked what they needed to upgrade to take their stock Trail off roading. I said 3" front coil spacers, yellow laminex on the fog lights, 15% window tint, KO2s, and a lightbar was the bare minimum.



Obviously it's tongue in cheek but upgrading expensive vehicles should be well thought out, not done just because lots of people do it on a forum. I tend to over-analyze everything, but it's how I educate myself and make a smart choice.


Anyway, with what you've said about stock 4Runners following you on trails, what would you say is the best basic setup if you had to put together a good do-all rig? Suspension, tires, armor, etc.

So when someone asked essentially the same question that you are asking you gave them a tongue in cheek sarcastic answer but here you are creating a new thread expecting honest responses. Nice.

You've asked the same question in multiple threads and as you can tell you've received about 30 different opinions. Like I said in another one of your posts, your over analyzing is causing analysis paralysis. Just pick something and don't look back. You're only giving yourself a headache but prolonging this.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[1engineer]

If anyone thinks a stock 4runner is so amazing offRoad.. I beg you to come run a few trails with me and prove it. I'll take video and post it here. You won't even get past the first obstacle...been proven over and over again.

I'd be happy to run the trails with you. You and I have a different view of four wheeling though. After reading thousands of your posts, you seem to think overcoming obstacles on the trail is the definitive measure of success. While that is certainly one measure, my measure is somewhat different. My measure is simply being able to get from point "A" to point "B" successfully and safely. If that involves bypasses or stacking rocks or driving a mile up stream to cross lower water then so be it. I don't think I have EVER been in an off road park just to challenge my vehicle to overcome an obstacle. Off road, I always have a destination in mind and getting to that destination is the primary goal... for me.

My stock 4Runner cannot do some trails. I'm sure your 4Runner cannot go over the same obstacles as your off road truck. I'm damn sure your off road truck cannot follow a KOH truck over their obstacles. It's just a matter of degrees.

 

[JSparky]

To the OP, it may be worthwhile to try and find a TRD Pro 4runner on a lot to test drive, that will give you an idea of how the bilsteins ride. Heck you could just buy that suspension stand alone if you want to.

In general, if you're not having problems with stock size tires offroad, hitting your diff, or issues with load carrying capacity, I'd probably recommend just running some nice at tires and call it a day. Hope that helps.

 

[emmantik]

I'll give you the truth. Yes, it's going to piss a bunch of people off, but hey, the truth hurts. Warning - Long read ahead:

First, let me dispense with the "I'd rather have it and not need it" "when it comes to suspension" crap. Why be selective if this is your mantra? You should wear two pairs of pants and socks every day then. You should have a spare 4Runner sitting at home. Hell, you should have two identical homes - you know - just in case one blows away. This excuse is just a way to justify things for some people. The truth? Here you go:

Most mod their 4Runner for one reason: Looks. That's it. It looks cool (I agree) and it fits their "image" of who they think they are when they look in the mirror. They mod it not because they NEED to but because they WANT to. In reality, even HAVING a 4Runner for most people is way overkill. What do they think... that the nice divided highway that leads to their manicured subdivision is suddenly going to turn into mush? Zombies? Who knows, but truthfully, 99% of the people, and I think that is an understatement, would do just fine with a Highlander. But they WANT a 4Runner and that's fine. I just wish they would admit it. So, now that we have got the "bro" element out of the way, on to modding.

Larger tires are the ONLY way you get increased ground clearance. Don't buy into the BS hype. Lifting increases your STATIC (sitting still) ground clearance. So, if you want to improve your approach angle why you are sitting still, then by all means lift it for that reason! Your suspension is dynamic - meaning it moves through a range. If you only lift it and do not install bigger tires, then when your suspension compresses while hitting a bump off road then it momentarily is back where it was before lifting! So that rock you thought you could clear by lifting? You might still hit it. Some will tell you "285's are the way to go! Much better than stock!" Well, why did they stop at 285's? Why not run 295's and they will go further. Why stop there? go to 35's and they will go even further. Wait! Let's go to 37's! I can go anywhere! Well, you can, until the guy with 40's goes even further...
Those who want to lift to clear larger tires? If you want to have your tires clear throughout the full suspension range you STILL have to mod the inner fender, BMC maybe, mud flap delete, aftermarket UCA's, etc. Let's move on.

If you do a suspension lift, be prepared to:
Accept that your vehicle will make more noises
Accept that your vehicle will not be as reliable or durable
Accept that your vehicle will require more maintenance
Accept that your vehicle will NOT ride or handle the same on the highway.
Accept that your vehicle will not be as efficient on the highway
Accept that your vehicle could require even more mods to "fix" the mods you just did.
Accept that any issues involving a myriad of suspension and driveline components COULD be denied for warranty consideration if there is a problem.

Now, with that said, the haters are definitely going to hate, but the above is the truth. Well then, why would you even mod or lift? Well,

Lifting, even though it is the best mod visually, is only one minor component of making the 4Runner more off road worthy. To truly make it really good off road, you need:
Skids
Bumpers
Lift
Associated Suspension Components like UCA's
Tires
Recovery gear

You are right to assume that opinions will be biased. That's natural. If I spent $5K on something, I will want it to be the best thing ever, and even if it's not, I will still tell people it's the best thing ever! Human nature. I'm looking at a new mountain bike that's around $5K. Trust me, it will be the best bike ever and I will tell everyone it is when I get it (even if it's not).

Truthfully, lifting, just lifting alone, does very little to help off road and only hurts you on road. But... it looks really good lol. Leveling? Worst idea ever. Purely for looks, terrible for performance like vehicle loading.

Now, why and I writing this, this heretic blasphemy on an enthusiast's forum? Because it's simply realistic. I started modding vehicles almost 40 years ago. I have almost (and have) ruined vehicles from being daily drivers by modding. I have taken perfectly good vehicles and, while making them off road kings, made them big fat pigs with horrible road manners. I have also take vehicles and made them LOOK like they could tackle Dakar.. and ruined their road manners and efficiency in the process.

I go off road more than most and some of it is for my job. My 4Runner is stock and goes off road better than just about any other vehicle in stock configuration. As a matter of fact, my 4Runner will go places that I don't have the courage to take it! Stock.

The one thing my stock 4Runner does not do as well stock? Looks. It does not look as cool as other vehicles, which is why most here mod theirs to begin with.

There you go. I'm not selling anything and I have no reason to lie or justify anything to you. All I have is experience. Evaluate (truthfully) what you really want to do with your 4Runner. Chances are, stock will be just fine and there is no shame in stacking rocks and taking the bypass every now and then. You will appreciate this when you are taking that 2K road trip comfortably and getting 20 mpg and not hearing any creaks and groans every time you hit a speed bump.

But, if you are like me, you will STILL look at your 4Runner sitting in the driveway and think "Damn, it would look too good I I just lifted it and put some different wheels on it..." so far I have been able to fight that demon...

Sticking to the topic on this post about being stock, what are you thoughts on a stock diameter tire but wider width? I'm thinking a 285/65/17. Yokohama Geolander a/t-s. I am new to the off-road world but would like to explore some easy trails in my stock SR5 and not feel like I have to do more mods than necessary. This It is my daily driver and I do not plan to go anywhere extreme. (sorry to sidetrack a bit)

 

[1engineer]

Sticking to the topic on this post about being stock, what are you thoughts on a stock diameter tire but wider width? I'm thinking a 285/65/17. Yokohama Geolander a/t-s. I am new to the off-road world but would like to explore some easy trails in my stock SR5 and not feel like I have to do more mods than necessary. This It is my daily driver and I do not plan to go anywhere extreme. (sorry to sidetrack a bit)

Why wider? Looks? Just air down on trails to about 18-20 psi with stock tires and you will have a bigger footprint then than you would with the new size at stock pressure. Truth is you don't need a wider tire.

 

[emmantik]

Why wider? Looks? Just air down on trails to about 18-20 psi with stock tires and you will have a bigger footprint then than you would with the new size at stock pressure. Truth is you don't need a wider tire.

I was thinking more contact = a bit more traction. But good point about airing down.

Plus, if I wanted to do it for looks I would get 275 or 285's.

Thanks for the insight! I am a minimalist and your point of view really resonates with me!

 

[honda250xtitan]

Why wider? Looks? Just air down on trails to about 18-20 psi with stock tires and you will have a bigger footprint then than you would with the new size at stock pressure. Truth is you don't need a wider tire.

instead of quoting the book you wrote, i quoted this short post.....lifting the vehicle gives you more clearance. not sure how you think ONLY tires add ground clearance. sure at the ball joint, where the LCA is, there's no way of adding clearance other then a taller tire, or a grinder. But at the body you gain clearance when you lift the vehicle. The upper and lower arms get pushed down farther depending on ride height, the OEM geometry that toyotas dumb engineers tested and retested gets thrown ALL OUT OF WACK, but you get more clearance. Then theres those guys running ICONS with 3.5" of preload cranked saying they have a fantastic ride, but I digress...:yield:

 

[AsAkite]

I had a 2011 SR5 with stock suspension, that I put 275/70/17 K02s mounted to SCS Ray 10's (17x8.5).

I then promptly traded that perfectly good truck for a 2014 Trail Premium, because I'm a picky sh!t that needed seat warmers in Texas.

Anyway, I kept the wheels/tires... and the 2014 already had a Toytec Boss kit on it. So, compared to the stock 2011, the 2014 rides (on road) a lot like the 2011, except it doesn't feel like a willowy marshmallow at low speed and it has a bit more wander at 70+ mph.
I have no suspension noise so far.
As far as off road, well.... my experience so far (not to shine too much of a light on 1engineers "truthspeak") has been limited to evaluating the approach/departure angles of the local Starbucks parking lot speed-bumps and shooting over those pesky raised railway tracks (I have plans though dammit!).

With that said, I can tell you that raised railway tracks and extreme intersection dips are NOOOO problem! the Toytec takes it like butter!

 

[1engineer]

instead of quoting the book you wrote, i quoted this short post.....lifting the vehicle gives you more clearance. not sure how you think ONLY tires add ground clearance. sure at the ball joint, where the LCA is, there's no way of adding clearance other then a taller tire, or a grinder. But at the body you gain clearance when you lift the vehicle. The upper and lower arms get pushed down farther depending on ride height, the OEM geometry that toyotas dumb engineers tested and retested gets thrown ALL OUT OF WACK, but you get more clearance. Then theres those guys running ICONS with 3.5" of preload cranked saying they have a fantastic ride, but I digress...:yield:

So you have a tire that is 2" taller. You get 1" more ground clearance at the rear diff. You add a 12" lift kit and stock tires. How much more clearance do you get at the rear diff?

Now, to be sensible. Of course a lift will slightly improve approach and departure angles. What else? You now will clear that 10" rock you keep scraping but what about that 12" rock? No help there. My point is a lift is not the greatest thing since sliced bread as a standalone. It is fine when used in conjunction with other off road components like tires, skids, bumpers, etc but where does it end? That guy who is doing the SAS and running 40's is going to clean your clock is where it ends lol.
If you are doing dirt trails and fire roads, what do you need? That was my point. Only tires will raise the lowest point of the vehicle.