Suspension lifts - Realities and capabilities

I know this may be side-stepping the question/request, but you could keep your vehicle stock, then whenever you go on vacation, pick a scenic place (Sedona AZ, NE Colorado, W Colorado) and rent a lifted jeep with insurance and hit the challenging trails. You'll enjoy the journey and the destination, trust me.

You'll get your adrenaline rush, not have to worry about trail damage, alignment issues, maintenance, on-road performance, looking at more lifting options, etc. You'll probably get your fill of off roading for at least until the next time your off. If it doesnt, then your experiences will point you in the right direction as to what you need to do to your 4runner.

I mean, these people who go overlanding/offroading don't do it every other day, they do it during their vacation time aka every now and then.

Those are just my opinions though. I obviously have a stock 4runner.
 
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So you have a tire that is 2" taller. You get 1" more ground clearance at the rear diff. You add a 12" lift kit and stock tires. How much more clearance do you get at the rear diff?

Now, to be sensible. Of course a lift will slightly improve approach and departure angles. What else? You now will clear that 10" rock you keep scraping but what about that 12" rock? No help there. My point is a lift is not the greatest thing since sliced bread as a standalone. It is fine when used in conjunction with other off road components like tires, skids, bumpers, etc but where does it end? That guy who is doing the SAS and running 40's is going to clean your clock is where it ends lol.
If you are doing dirt trails and fire roads, what do you need? That was my point. Only tires will raise the lowest point of the vehicle.

You see, reality is just no fun.

Modding isn't about being smart. Sorry folks, it is more of "because I can and I want to." Lol. My 80 still goes more places than my 4runner despite quite a bit more going into my 4runner build. The 4runner is a great conversation starter though and the look on the Jeepers faces on the 'con is worth it... trust me.

My k10 will kill both trucks in just about every single department except people transport but I think it needs to be finished first.
 
honestly the 5th gen 4runner comes with enough clearance and offroad prowess stock to cover almost every normal fire road or easy trail. Matter of fact, All these JK jeeps on 35's were surprised to see me on the trail in Moab 100% stock with dealer plates and only 500 miles on the clock lol!

As others have said, you primarily lift for performance and larger tires for ground clearance. No point in dropping $2k since you aren't a hardcore wheeler. And why risk changing to a bilstein 5100 suspension which may be too stiff for your DD, then you will need an alignment and possibly rub here and there and creak. Just get better (slightly larger maybe?) tires and go slow offroad.

1engineer hit the nail on the head with great info. You got to pay to play. Do it once and do it right and accept the fact that things will break/fail the harder you push it even if it is a toyota (unless you have a toyota hilux bombproof diesel).
 
You see, reality is just no fun.

Modding isn't about being smart. Sorry folks, it is more of "because I can and I want to." Lol. My 80 still goes more places than my 4runner despite quite a bit more going into my 4runner build. The 4runner is a great conversation starter though and the look on the Jeepers faces on the 'con is worth it... trust me.

My k10 will kill both trucks in just about every single department except people transport but I think it needs to be finished first.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. If you want to mod, then mod! For looks, for off road, for the mall, whatever, but be honest with yourself! Don't come here asking for buy-in to your own warped version of self justification because it's all you and whatever reasons you have are yours.

I have this problem with mountain bikes and I have to just slap myself sometimes when I think I am being all logical. I wrote a book back there on the logic and truth. Ben just wrote a paragraph on the illogic and it is the truth also!
 
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. If you want to mod, then mod! For looks, for off road, for the mall, whatever, but be honest with yourself! Don't come here asking for buy-in to your own warped version of self justification because it's all you and whatever reasons you have are yours.

I have this problem with mountain bikes and I have to just slap myself sometimes when I think I am being all logical. I wrote a book back there on the logic and truth. Ben just wrote a paragraph on the illogic and it is the truth also!

I always thought bikers were onto something since they can run the Rubicon both directions and be home for dinner... haha. Rock crawling isn't practical, but it is enjoyed by some!
 
The irony here is that the OP traded in his KDSS TE for a non-KDSS TE stating that the ride was too stiff and liked how soft and compliant the non-KDSS was. He was totally happy with the switch. Now he wants to change out the suspension to get a lift which could possibly once again stiffen up his ride.

Here's is the answer, get the TRD Pro suspension. It's "stock", reliable, gives a mild lift and mild increase in performance, and from what I've read the coil rate is softer than stock.

At this point it's not worth trying to convince the OP that he doesn't need a lift. He has it already stuck in his mind that he WANTS one. Same way he was convinced KDSS would break on him too.


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The irony here is that the OP traded in his KDSS TE for a non-KDSS TE stating that the ride was too stiff and liked how soft and compliant the non-KDSS was. He was totally happy with the switch. Now he wants to change out the suspension to get a lift which could possibly once again stiffen up his ride.

Here's is the answer, get the TRD Pro suspension. It's "stock", reliable, gives a mild lift and mild increase in performance, and from what I've read the coil rate is softer than stock.

At this point it's not worth trying to convince the OP that he doesn't need a lift. He has it already stuck in his mind that he WANTS one. Same way he was convinced KDSS would break on him too.


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Exactly. This dude sold a brand new 4Runner because he was afraid of perceived reliability issues.... I'm pretty sure he's trolling us hard.
 
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So you have a tire that is 2" taller. You get 1" more ground clearance at the rear diff. You add a 12" lift kit and stock tires. How much more clearance do you get at the rear diff?

Now, to be sensible. Of course a lift will slightly improve approach and departure angles. What else? You now will clear that 10" rock you keep scraping but what about that 12" rock? No help there. My point is a lift is not the greatest thing since sliced bread as a standalone. It is fine when used in conjunction with other off road components like tires, skids, bumpers, etc but where does it end? That guy who is doing the SAS and running 40's is going to clean your clock is where it ends lol.
If you are doing dirt trails and fire roads, what do you need? That was my point. Only tires will raise the lowest point of the vehicle.
You are throwing people off a bit here... Ground clearance at the diff is a useful data point, but not that big of a deal in most situations. In almost any situation (besides sinking scenarios) there are ways to place the tires to get enough ground clearance at the rear diff.

The 5th gen is not generally limited by ground clearance at the diff (it is the least of it's problems... this is usually a driver skill or line choice issue when it comes to established trails). It is however limited greatly by approach, departure, break over, body, and stability due to limited wheel travel and overall girth. A small lift makes a big difference. Will it go anywhere... No way, but the improvement is substantial and not just for looks.
 
This thread is going to end like his kdss thread. His mind is already made up on the subject matter, and he's just looking for approval for whatever decision he is going to make.

To the OP: its your money man, do what you want to do, but there is no lift that is going to give you oem ride quality. The pro's suspension will be close though, but that may not be close enough for your tastes. If you couldn't tolerate the KDSS...........well .....good luck finding that proverbial unicorn.
 
Not trolling.

I bought my 2014 KDSS with 25k miles October 2016. I drove it a few months and ran the odometer to 40k miles, then gave it back to the dealer with a $1500 check for a straight trade on a different used 2014 non-KDSS with 25k miles. I *much* prefer the way the non-KDSS truck rides. It's pretty simple.

(The KDSS aside, the first truck had a few cosmetic issues like roof damage that I didn't notice when I bought it and the replacement truck was in better overall condition. $1500 for a 50% decrease in mileage and 80% increase in condition was a cost that was acceptable to me. The roof repair alone was going to run $1400.)

Some folks here seem to get bent out of shape when discussions go deeper than "heck yeah buy this because it looks awesome and you'll love it and it's what everybody else does and don't ask why just do it."

My stock TE is incredibly capable with just stock size KO2s, and those tires ride wonderfully on the highway and my experience is that they do excellent in wet weather as well. It's a very explainable upgrade with pros that outweigh any cons by a long shot.

The suspension stuff is obviously not as straightforward unless only looking at being used off road. It seems the consensus is that any suspension modification generally negatively affects highway manners but for some guys the increased off road performance (or increased cool looks) are worth dealing with worse highway manners.


Anyway, it's interesting that there is almost no consensus on what suspension modifications are "best" for general off road trail riding.
 
Anyway, with what you've said about stock 4Runners following you on trails, what would you say is the best basic setup if you had to put together a good do-all rig? Suspension, tires, armor, etc.

It's all trade offs.

I think a good balance is 285s or pizza cutter 255/80s... Aluminum skids (aluminum sliders if you can find them, but probably have to go DOM there). I like the road manners and quality of ICONs (King or Radflow, Fox seem to be a bit smoother offroad, but its a toss up really). It comes down to digressive vs progressive valving. You really do get what you pay for, but a high end shock with good valving will require rebuilds, spherical bearings.... Just the way it goes. Aftermarket UCAs are a must IMHO once you lift. Just plan for it from the start.

If you just want fire and forget go OME. They will hold up very well and require no maintenance.

Never met anyone disappointed with a setup like this... You will get random complaints here and there, but same thing with stock trucks. Complaints from everything from nose dive to soft and mushy... It's all over the board when it comes to perceptions.

Or keep it stock. Totally up to you, no perfect answer. There are downsides and upsides to every modification.
 
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I can't really add much more, it's been pretty much covered.

There is no "best" kit out there. All have drawbacks to them, from spacers to full long travel and everything in between you will a negative to come along with it.

I'd talk with [MENTION=148378]Dobinsons Mike[/MENTION] they have a large selection of springs with various heights, weights and it is not the noisy high end race stuff that will require maintenance and yes, if you felt that kdss would cause you pain the coilovers and spherical bearings will drive you insane with noise, maintenance, money and you put miles on your truck if you put 15k on in just a few months.

Dobinsons or OME if you WANT the lift....or stock like has been suggested. Those will be your lowest maintenance options. I don't think you will be happy with a lift though.
 
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honestly the 5th gen 4runner comes with enough clearance and offroad prowess stock to cover almost every normal fire road or easy trail. Matter of fact, All these JK jeeps on 35's were surprised to see me on the trail in Moab 100% stock with dealer plates and only 500 miles on the clock lol!

As others have said, you primarily lift for performance and larger tires for ground clearance. No point in dropping $2k since you aren't a hardcore wheeler. And why risk changing to a bilstein 5100 suspension which may be too stiff for your DD, then you will need an alignment and possibly rub here and there and creak. Just get better (slightly larger maybe?) tires and go slow offroad.

1engineer hit the nail on the head with great info. You got to pay to play. Do it once and do it right and accept the fact that things will break/fail the harder you push it even if it is a toyota (unless you have a toyota hilux bombproof diesel).
Come look at my front skid, there is not enough clearance if you venture off that main FS road. I don't even wheel that hard, just rough FS roads and easy JOB trails.

The information about clearance at the diff is technically true but misleading. Lifts have an advantage even if you don't change tire size because the diff is at the tire which means you can put the tire on an obstacle but that isn't an option when it comes to breakover or approach/departure

If you've never had an issue with clearance don't get a lift. If you do, get a lift. Stock is very capable but it's not perfect, it was designed to meet fuel economy and safety requirements and not designed for capability

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Come look at my front skid, there is not enough clearance if you venture off that main FS road. I don't even wheel that hard, just rough FS roads and easy JOB trails.

The information about clearance at the diff is technically true but misleading. Lifts have an advantage even if you don't change tire size because the diff is at the tire which means you can put the tire on an obstacle but that isn't an option when it comes to breakover or approach/departure

If you've never had an issue with clearance don't get a lift. If you do, get a lift. Stock is very capable but it's not perfect, it was designed to meet fuel economy and safety requirements and not designed for capability

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Oh believe me...we had custom stamping on the stock skidplate by the time we left Moab lol! It did serve its purpose well and is too low for anyone to notice the damage :banana:
 
So you have a tire that is 2" taller. You get 1" more ground clearance at the rear diff. You add a 12" lift kit and stock tires. How much more clearance do you get at the rear diff?

Now, to be sensible. Of course a lift will slightly improve approach and departure angles. What else? You now will clear that 10" rock you keep scraping but what about that 12" rock? No help there. My point is a lift is not the greatest thing since sliced bread as a standalone. It is fine when used in conjunction with other off road components like tires, skids, bumpers, etc but where does it end? That guy who is doing the SAS and running 40's is going to clean your clock is where it ends lol.
If you are doing dirt trails and fire roads, what do you need? That was my point. Only tires will raise the lowest point of the vehicle.

i totally agree with that:dammit:
 
There are essentially two components which dictate the suspensions characteristics (aside from it's basic geometry)

1) Springs - determine how much the suspension will compress given a certain load. This load can be applied by adding weight or through weight transfer during acceleration (cornering, braking, accelerating). The stiffer the spring, the less the suspension will deflect given a certain load. This is why stiffer springs are needed when you start adding the steel bumpers, tire carriers, and gobi racks loaded down with all of your 'bro-verlanding' equipment. Stiffer springs will also make the suspension feel more tight over bumps.

2) Shocks - The effects of shock absorbers are more difficult to visualize than that of springs, but the basic summary is that it is their job to keep the tire in contact with the surface below by limiting (or controling) oscilaitons in the suspension. There would be a lot to cover here but sufficed to say, the shocks are the component with the largest impact in how the vehicle "rides". How smooth or rough it feels over uneven surfaces.

With that in mind, there are several reasons to upgrade suspension in the context of an offroad vehicle. Some lifts accomplish all of these goals, some only accomplish 1 or 2. Here are the main ones that come to my mind:

1) Increased clearance for larger tires
2) Increased suspension travel (more available traction over uneven terrain) ***Keep in mind that with an IFS like on the 4runner there is a limit to how much articulation can be achieved***
3) Improved traction at speed over certain terrain types (shock valving)
4) Increased load capacity
5) Improved aesthetics (let's not pretend this doesn't matter)
6) Improved approach, breakover, and departure angles.
7) Improved clearance for everything except the differentials

Here's how some common types of lift do in the above categories **my opinion**:

Spacer lifts:

1) Good enough
2) Terrible - spacer lifts decrease your downtravel by the ammount of the lift. This is the number one reason not to use spacers.
3) Terrible - limiting downtravel can cause the suspension to bottom out abruptly over uneven surfaces. Not good!
4) Neither help nor hinder
5) OK for leveling
6) OK
7) OK

Upgraded springs and shocks:

1) Good
2) Good as long as the shock absorber has enough travel
3) Good
4) Good, depending on springs. No adjustability though
5) Good
6) Good
7) Good

Coilovers:

1) Good - Great (adjustable)
2) Good
3) Good
4) Good - Great, again the adjustability allows you to dial in some spring preload to level out additional weight. As long as you keep it reasonable this should have minimal impact on ride quality
5) Good - Great (king coilovers are sexy!)
6) Good
7) Good

You are going to "feel" changes to your suspension in basically one of two ways:

1) You added a spacer lift, too short shocks, or topped out a set of coilovers which has limited your downtravel drastically, causing the ride to feel very abrupt and jarring as the bottoming out suspension rocks your vehicle like a shot over every pothole. You probably notice I reference downtravel a bunch, and the reason being is that lifts work by "pushing" the suspension more downward from its stock location. This isn't necissarily bad, up to a point, however if the shock absorbers aren't upgraded, you'll run out of stroke (then they become tubular limiting straps) or you may end up contacting the spring with the upper control arm, particularly if you kept the UCA stock (which will also mean you probably have the caster way out of alignment)

2) You have changed the shock absorbers in some meaningful way. This could be bad or good, depending on what you've done and how you're driving. If you're driving at high speeds in the desert and you just threw in some shocks valved to tackle such a job, you'll probably be amazed at the improvement over stock. If you selected shock absorbers designed to be paired with heavy duty springs for increased load capacity, but aren't carrying anything extra aside from groceries...then the ride quality will likely feel very rough.

As far as whether or not a suspension lift will improve offroad capability, the answer is yes, as long as you are not sacrificing the travel for the benefit of pure "height". Increased approach, breakover, and departure angles are all realized. Without getting larger tires, you aren't adding any ground clearance to the differentials, but your bumpers will be higher and less likely to drag in the mud or water or whatever you're driving through/over. The two largest improvements you can make to your 4runner for offroading are Suspension and Tires, and they go hand in hand. Both need to be chosen to suit your intended use.

Having typed all of that: I'm getting Fox 2.5 remote resi's and 285 Trail Grapplers, because I hate "settling" and because I f**king can :lol:
 
1) How much more *actual* off-road capability is gained by a 1.5-2.5" lift on stock size (or close to it) tires?

2) Is there an actual noticeable difference in off-road capability between a perch/spacer lift (5100s) versus an increased travel lift (OMEs)?

3) How much does the daily driving ride suffer, and what are those negative symptoms between the two types?

4) Are Bilsteins as failure-prone as the forums make them out to be, and are OMEs as bullet-proof as they're made out to be?

5) When considering keeping this T4R for many years and miles, is lifting the truck a poor idea for long-term reliability? Mainly, is it going to cause cascading premature failures of other components?

1) Hard to quantify, but you will be gaining "actual" clearance for some of your most delicate panels (bumpers)

2) Yes. A matching pair of of springs/shocks will give you lift without sacrificing travel. The Bilsteins don't run into trouble with limiting the downtravel, so they're probably OK for very mild offroading. Spacers are for mall crawlers only IMO

3) Depends on a couple of things, see my previous post

4)No experience with OME shocks. Had a set of 5100s on my 4th gen and they didn't give me any trouble. Anecdotes are anecdotal...take with grain of salt :rain: <-- morton salt girl haha

5) It's your vehicle and you should do what makes you happy. I've never heard of something like transmission or differential, or even U joint failing being directly attributed to a suspension lift, although I could see in an extreme case how it would happen. CV Joints, however, definitely have a "comfortable" range to be kept in. I'll go ahead and pull a number out of my rear end and say keep it at or under 3" of lift in the front...again more grains of salt :rain:
 
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I always thought bikers were onto something since they can run the Rubicon both directions and be home for dinner... haha. Rock crawling isn't practical, but it is enjoyed by some!

With this post I just had an epiphany, I can drive out and ride the rubicon on my mtn bike. #roadtrip

No idea what the rest of the thread is about but... as Wayne and Garth said "Game ON!"
 

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