Taking Legal Action...Lemon Law!
- Thread starter Fadiddy
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alaskaman
Senior Member
if the third party opinion were correct then Toyota most likely would not have invested M illions in a new cat which according to the TSB came out in 2006 they would have been more likely to adjust or rework the other issues you raised. That said, the explanations don't for some reason make sense, at least not to me. Are you getting the Toyota Corp to buy back this vehicle........was that your goal or am I mistaken?
eskimochaos
Banned
Fadiddy said:
OK I'm not going to be smart with you - this is what I know about the ECU etc.
Our cars have been electronically fuel injected for over a decade. This is different than a traditional carburetor setup because we have no control on the air/fuel mixture. With a carburetor, we make adjustments to increase/decrease the amount of fuel going into the engine. There adjustments are different on exact same cars at different altitudes/humidity/temperature levels. A carburetor system is totally mechanical - when you press on the gas pedal a throttle wire from the gas pedal to the carburetor opens allowing more fuel and air into the engine causing it to rev.
Today, we use what is called an ECU which makes these adjustments for us. There are O2 sensors, temp sensors, and fuel delivery monitoring systems to ensure that the ideal mixture of air and fuel is delivered to the engine at all times. This optimizes performance at all altitudes, temperatures, humidity levels etc. That is why in the winter we get better gas mileage.....cold air is more dense thus requiring LESS fuel to deliver the same combustion. Our gas pedal is not mechanically connected to anything - we have what is called a drive-by-wire system. The car constantly analyzes the input that we give the gas pedal. It attempts to interpret our driving style - aggressive/old lady and makes shift points, shift aggressiveness of transmission, and programs itself to deliver the ideal air/fuel mixture to the engine based on the "usual" user input and matches transmission behavior with it. When we occasionally stomp on it, the ECU is slightly confused and attempts to correct itself. It sometimes delivers too much fuel which isnt completely combusted which gets passed through the exhaust system. When it gets to the cats, the excess fuel is burned off creating the "sulfur" smell.
My feeling is that not all cars do this because many do not "learn" our driving styles. Try it yourself....drive the car aggressively for a tank....after it learns your aggressive style, shifting is much more aggressive, the transmission shifts are crisper and the car is faster under all circumstances. Then all of a sudden start driving like a old lady, the car is confused and doesn't know what to do i.e. you lightly touch the gas pedal...the shift point is unusually high and the shifting is unusually abrupt...it IS noticeable until it learns your old lady habits.
I hope this helps and am sorry for earlier flames. I hope now you understand some of what is involved with the fuel delivery process in these super high tech ignitions systems.
Oh yea, dont file a lemon law for a rattle in the trunk. It is probably really simple. Trust me you will go from driving a practical tank to a sedan/cross over that you have to dodge potholes. Furthermore, feels like your totally bogged down with 4 adults in it.
Talk to your dealer, they WILL find the problem.
Again sorry for my earlier flames.
cknsls@adelphia
New member
Buy Back
So if they smell is normal on "drive by wire" cars/trucks. And is an accepted operation by most people -Toyota owners or other owners of other makes, then the grounds left for the "lemon lawsuit" is a rattle?
eskimochaos said:
So if they smell is normal on "drive by wire" cars/trucks. And is an accepted operation by most people -Toyota owners or other owners of other makes, then the grounds left for the "lemon lawsuit" is a rattle?
alaskaman
Senior Member
I would assume that some vehicles have more of a problem with the sulfur smell than others. When I went to the dealer, he suggested working with changing gas. Last week I used Shell and has zero smell issues. As it was rare to intermittent before the investigation if one could call it that I am not to upset. this week I filled up at Arco. so far no smells but during testing I open the windows and jump of the gas over and over to see if I can illicit the sulfur odor.........
alaskaman
Senior Member
Nothing personal but it seems like you are enjoying this. I mean if it were me I would have already had a new vehicle by now and have sold the one which was making me unhappy.
And personally I am a little tired of hearing how unhappy you are with a vehicle that the rest of the members here are thrilled to have. Since the problems and issues have been dissected an infinitum and ad nauseum I am not sure what to say other than it is a touch offensive to hear about lemon lawing a vehicle that I find to be superior in 99% of the things which make a vehicle fun. translation......it's not a fun thing to read any longer......how bout cut to the chase ace.
And personally I am a little tired of hearing how unhappy you are with a vehicle that the rest of the members here are thrilled to have. Since the problems and issues have been dissected an infinitum and ad nauseum I am not sure what to say other than it is a touch offensive to hear about lemon lawing a vehicle that I find to be superior in 99% of the things which make a vehicle fun. translation......it's not a fun thing to read any longer......how bout cut to the chase ace.
ProMed
New member
Re: Re: Buy Back
Oh man, it's really getting deep in here now.Fadiddy said:Finally, this is kinda "off topic: " but, I knew this guy once who purchased a Brand New Black SUV that had multiple repair attempts who filed a Federal Case in Illinois against a large Japanese carmaker and without going to court, managed to settle for $10k(after lawyer fees)...and kept the car with warranty! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
"I don't need more tough guys....I need more lawyers!"
- Micheal Corleone -
eskimochaos
Banned
alaskaman said:
X2 + 1
eskimochaos
Banned
Re: Re: Re: Taking Legal Action...Lemon Law!
Are you speaking sensibly now?
Fadiddy said:Yes, it seems that under "hard braking" the car will have a slight bump when it "re-aligns." This IS a normal characteristic of Toyota's 4x4 system. Seems that its been happening since the 80's. My 94' doesnt do it...
I didn't include this as I don't care about that, as much, I do alot of highway driving anyhow. I still think its an "under-engineered" driveshaft system....cuz if it wasn't, all 4x4 would do it. He did confirm though, that its a "beefy" drivetrain compared to other SUV's....i could of told you that.:bash:
Are you speaking sensibly now?
eskimochaos
Banned
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Taking Legal Action...Lemon Law!
I take that back.
Actually, now that you mention it, I was just paid by Toyota today for my opinions.
Fadiddy said:
I take that back.
Actually, now that you mention it, I was just paid by Toyota today for my opinions.
Fadiddy, I can't rememeber, but has Toyota offered to perform the TSB that other 4runners have gotten over the years to address the sulfur odor issue? I know they haven't issued a TSB on your model year, yet, but since these trucks haven't really changed much over the years, it would only make sense to me that the TSB would be the same for your year as it is for the other years prior. If they haven't offered it, I would expect them too soon as a means to address the issue for you. Infact, I'd probably expect them to require you to let them do it before moving forward in the process. It seems like a cheaper alternative to them to do so. The last thing they want is another used SUV sitting on the books, especially in this market.
I found your comments about the sulfur odor be altitude sensitive quite interesting. I went back through the sticky posting about the issue to see where most of the folks live that are posting up the problem as well. It appears the vast majority are in Califorina or the NE section of the country, with others littered around here and there. However, few were posted from Colorado which lends the opinion against the elevation theory. However, it is an interesting stance. I would of thought though that the higher the elevation the worse the smell. Based upon the comment about "not all the fuel is being burnt", higher elevations have thinner air, which would make me think more fuel would be added to the system to compensate? I could be wrong, but it seems logical.
Eitherway, at the end of the day, if you're not happy with your purchase, you're not happy with your purchase. It's just that simple. Hope they come through for you, but be cautious and patient. I'm sure Toyota will make you jump through a few more hoops in an attempt to shake you loose.
But in the meantime, just remember, you've got a great weapon against those annoying tailgaters! I kid you not man, I have a 100% success rate with popping the car into neutral and revving it a few times to make a tailgater drop back, way back! I actually love it!
I found your comments about the sulfur odor be altitude sensitive quite interesting. I went back through the sticky posting about the issue to see where most of the folks live that are posting up the problem as well. It appears the vast majority are in Califorina or the NE section of the country, with others littered around here and there. However, few were posted from Colorado which lends the opinion against the elevation theory. However, it is an interesting stance. I would of thought though that the higher the elevation the worse the smell. Based upon the comment about "not all the fuel is being burnt", higher elevations have thinner air, which would make me think more fuel would be added to the system to compensate? I could be wrong, but it seems logical.
Eitherway, at the end of the day, if you're not happy with your purchase, you're not happy with your purchase. It's just that simple. Hope they come through for you, but be cautious and patient. I'm sure Toyota will make you jump through a few more hoops in an attempt to shake you loose.
But in the meantime, just remember, you've got a great weapon against those annoying tailgaters! I kid you not man, I have a 100% success rate with popping the car into neutral and revving it a few times to make a tailgater drop back, way back! I actually love it!
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eskimochaos
Banned
Fadiddy said:No, they will not perform the TSB on my car....nor will they anyone elses 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2008. Reason why Toyota even released a TSB for 03'-04' was because there were more cases being reported of Excessive Sulfur Odor in those years due to more sales (more people owning them). Toyota "probably" found out that its not so much the Catalytic converters as it is the ECU programming. So, as a "precaution" besides flashing the ECU, they also installed new catalytic converters. If you look closely, the two "different part#" catalytic converters are IDENTICAL yet for that TSB to be correct, they had to have different part numbers so people wouldn't b!tch why their catalytic converters weren't replaced on the work order. So, technically, Toyota DID replace the catalytic converters, but with the same ones. This would then give Toyota the upper-hand in a case battle and could rely on "see even after replacing the cats, we told you it was the type of gasoline quality!" Notice how majority of owners, if not all, who have had the TSB done still report the smell... That is why 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 4Runners (heck, any Toyota model) doesn't have this TSB. No one believed me when I said, "Toyota is slipping up in the quality control department." This can easily be resolved with a little Java programming and an IC Programmer. I am actually trying to study this particular Closed-Loop Control ECU that the 4Runner has on my spare time. IF it is a standard 32-bit 40mhz processor like the 4.7l Landcruiser's...I honestly think i may be able to reprogram the ECU on the 4th Gen 4Runners. Get better gas mileage and get rid of the stink. Let's see how far Toyota pushes me...
I dont believe you.
ProMed
New member
"They" performed the sulfur TSB on my 06 when it was less than a year old. Problem solved, however I did go in informed and was very polite.Fadiddy said:
My personal experience has shown that if you go in uninformed, and/or acting like a jackass, you receive the same service in return.
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