The REAL STORY??????

[Maz]

Hey Maz,

I've come to realize that you and I can't possibly have an intelligent debate about this issue. I think the reason is mostly due to the fact that I have a strong mechanical and engineering background on vehicles and their subsystems, and you obviously do not. Don't take offense, I'm not saying that you're an idiot or a moron or anything like that. I'm just saying that you're not well versed in the inner workings of a modern automobile. I mean, seriously, you couldn't even comprehend how a vehicle could be at low speed and still be at wide open throttle. So again, no offense to you, but lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that. This would be a much more interesting debate if it was between two people who truly understand how cars operate. I'd rather just end the debate now instead of watching things degrade any further. Thanks.

This keeps getting more hilarious by the minute. To paraphrase; don't take offense and I'm not calling you a moron like I called several other people, but you're just not smart enough to talk to. :hatsoff: What was that joke someone put up here...How do you find out if someone is an Engineer?. They'll tell you. :biggrin2:

Actually Jed that's the problem, you're an Engineer and you want to judge the experience of other drivers as if it's a science problem with strick controls. The very fact you keep insisting on the impossible standard to eliminate humans from the equation, shows an engineering only approach to this issue doesn't work. Or did you not notice only humans drive Toyotas?

Yes I do realize your WOT is the same as my pedal to the metal all the way up the speed chart. I also realize you honestly believe a 50 vs. 90, no suprise vs. panic, contolled test vs. real street...comparison is like for like. Therefore anyone who can't handle it as well as you did in your self test, must deserves the insulting names you've thrown at them. In addition anyone who doesn't see it your way must have an opinion unworthy of considering.

I'm not an engineer, although I did get A's in college science later took chemistry and advanced math courses since I originally was going to medical school. Maybe one doesn't need to be an engineer to recognize your expectations that other Toyota drivers match your standards even though you never actually drove in their situation doesn't make much sense. In short a test at half the speed with advance knowledge in a controlled enviroment is in no way comparable, nor is it going to produce meaningful results as compared to double the speed on the street trying to dodge traffic with one hand on the wheel and trying to turn off the key or shift the gears with the other while having one or both feet on the brakes. According to how I understand your self test you didn't even try to shift grears, turn the engine off, or even change lances.

The fact you insist your test is comparable to real life and justified fodder to call people name shows a lack of empathy. It also shows a lack of understanding you can't judge people by your standards. Unless, of course, you're willing to also be judged yourself by theirs. Based on the name calling and personal remarks about thick skulls, I'm thinking you're a poor candidate for letting other judge you.

 

[Maz]

I'll readily admit that I have no special knowledge about this situation, what I do have is a couple of questions/observations.

1) How prevalent is the electronics problem? How many documented cases of sudden uncontrollable acceleration have there been? Yes, one death is to many, but a fair number of folks die every year from lightning strikes. What I am trying to understand the real risk level, not the level ambulance chasers or corporate "spokesmen" would have us believe.

2) Regardless of the answer to 1, Toyota has mismanaged the whole affair, perhaps in large part due to cultural behavior patterns. Still, denial and defensiveness is a human trait across all(?) cultures.

3) Is there anyone who believes the congressional circus we saw today will lead to truth? Can there be any doubt that a significant portion of the political class is rubbing its hands with glee at a good crisis? Cheered on no doubt by the UAW, and tort lawyers, and NBC et al.

4) Based on what is known, would you still buy a used 4Runner? a new 4Runner?

1. I'm not sure anyone knows for sure there is an electronics problem. All we know is some evidence makes it appears that could be the case, and we have a huge problem since Toyota has so far insisted electronics isn't involved.

2. No doubt denial is a human trait jpintx, but corporations are not humans. More importantly perhaps, in a court of law using human fraility as a defense rarely works for corporations.

3. I don't get the reference to NBC, and while your question about lawyer and the UAW has some connection to the issue, ultimately this is in Toyota's hands. If they go anywhere near the road they started to limit recalls and blaming owners via floormats, they're going to get hammered no matter what anyone else does. If they can convince the public they're contrite and really want to resolve the issue no matter what, they've got a chance to come out of this in a reasonably decent way.

4. I just bought a new left over 2009 4 Runner on December 31st, about five minutes before the proverbial excrement hit the fan. Right now things aren't too thrilling, however I'm waiting to see how Toyota handles this. In the meantime quite frankly, I'm very relectant to let my wife drive the vehicle.

 

[JB.]

I just bought a new left over 2009 4 Runner..... frankly, I'm very relectant to let my wife drive the vehicle.

Which is understandable as humans are extremely emotional creatures, but I hope you realize this attitude is not at all supported statistically. Similar to the traffic death rate increase after 9/11 because of fear of flying, I won't be at all surprised if future analysis reveals that the hysteria over this somehow managed to take more lives than the problem itself.

 

[Jed]

Which is understandable as humans are extremely emotional creatures, but I hope you realize this attitude is not at all supported statistically. Similar to the traffic death rate increase after 9/11 because of fear of flying, I won't be at all surprised if future analysis reveals that the hysteria over this somehow managed to take more lives than the problem itself.

Yeah, I agree. I'd love to see the numbers on the actual reported claims. Someone asked earlier about the numbers and I guessed it was far less than 1%.

It will also be interesting to compare this case with the Audi case. It starts to get really interesting when you look at the Audi numbers and then consider the fact that not one of those reports were ever substantiated. No vehicle defects were ever found on any of the Audi vehicles. So that should give us a good idea of how people can pile on the bandwagon erroneously. Only now it's even easier because of the Internet and advanced communication in general. But still, it will give us a baseline of crackpots out there

 

[Maz]

Which is understandable as humans are extremely emotional creatures, but I hope you realize this attitude is not at all supported statistically. Similar to the traffic death rate increase after 9/11 because of fear of flying, I won't be at all surprised if future analysis reveals that the hysteria over this somehow managed to take more lives than the problem itself.

JB it's not about emotions. It's about the fact my wife, while immensly talented in many ways, does not handle stressful situtions well. However I will readily admit that will not show up on a stat chart. :lol:

Question; we know this problem has taken at least the lives of several family members in San Diego. Can you explain how hysteria over Toyota issues could cause someone's death?

 

[Uneek]

I can guarantee you that all future Toyota vehicle will be built with brakes that disable the accelerator. Once the brake switch is sensed, the throttle will be shut down completely. The real question here is how Toyota will handle the vehicles already on the road. Will they modify them all with a mandatory recall? Will they offer the reflash (or new ECU) to owners who want it? Will they offer it at all for those who already own a Toyota?

Yes, one of the many articles posted here mentioned some vehicles will be reflashed or retroffited with the brake override system. I only noticed because it includes the (my) '05 Tacoma.

I don't think anyone is denying that there's a problem. But at the same time, there WILL be morons who take advantage of the media firestorm. If someone crashes through his garage door due to his own stupidity, imagine how convenient it would be right now if he just happens to drive a Toyota. He can call ABC news and say, "look guys, another case of unintended acceleration! I started my car and it accelerated right through my garage door!". Those are the morons I'm referring to when I call someone a moron. The lady with the Lexus claims that not only did the brakes not stop her car, but that the car wouldn't go into neutral either. Think about that for a moment....Is it possible? Sure, but is it probable for two complete failures occurring at the same time on the same vehicle? Actually, for her story to be true, it would have been 3 problems happening simultaneously. 1- throttle goes wide open and stays that way 2- brakes fail and the car will not stop 3-transmission selector fails and will not come out of drive. Come on now....who's really going to believe that? The more likely answer here is that the lady is a moron and is blaming the vehicle for her own stupidity. Sorry, but that's the way I see it and I'm sure other people agree with me.

Unfortunately that's the sad fact of our sue happy society. Right now Toyota is that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. If someone can milk it and get rich for putting hot coffee between their crotch, Toyota isn't a cash cow, it's an entire cattle species.

I don't know, but right now might be a good time to file for bankruptcy protection. :hiding:

 

[Uneek]

I think some of you are missing something here.

what i fail to understand after reading all this is how is a car running WOT going to be able to stop at all. Most power braking systems run on vacuum unless it has an electrical operating system or hydroboost. the higher the RPM the less vacuum in the engine, so if the engine is running WOT there is "0" vacuum hence no power brakes.

if the woman at congress was running 100mph at WOT and she shifted in neutral the engine would still be reving because the electrical computer running the drive by wire sysytem is still activated(possible toyota problem) and again no vacuum to run the power brakes because the engine is at WOT.

i fail to see how anyone running at WOT weather it is the drive by wire or cable system can stop a car, truck, suv. with the engine at WOT trying to stop a vehicle with no vacuum to the brake booster is not possible. its like trying to steer a car with power steering that has no belt.

this is why buick grand nationals, t-types, some oldsmobile and cadillac models used a powermaster brake system(electric over hydraulic) brake system. mainly because the engine could not make enough vacuum to operate the brakes safely. (granted people have changed to a full vacuum system in those models but they are not the same).

please if i am wrong i will eat my words.

this would explain why some who have tried to stop the car can't, who try to shift to neutral and the car won't stop and now the car becomes uncontrolable.

The brake booster on most cars will give you power assisted brakes for two to three stops easily, even when the engine is off. After that, the driver would need to stand on the brakes, but the brakes aren't lost, if they're not faded.

 

[Jed]

I don't know, but right now might be a good time to file for bankruptcy protection. :hiding:

Or it may be a good time to dump your Toyota stock if you have any. Actually, that would have been a good idea about two weeks ago.

 

[Jed]

The brake booster on most cars will give you power assisted brakes for two to three stops easily, even when the engine is off. After that, the driver would need to stand on the brakes, but the brakes aren't lost, if they're not faded.

True, but in the case of modern Toyota vehicles, there is a pump that continually provides brake assist, so no engine vacuum is required. I think that's more relevant in the current situations.

 

[Uneek]

I'll readily admit that I have no special knowledge about this situation, what I do have is a couple of questions/observations.

1) How prevalent is the electronics problem? How many documented cases of sudden uncontrollable acceleration have there been? Yes, one death is to many, but a fair number of folks die every year from lightning strikes. What I am trying to understand the real risk level, not the level ambulance chasers or corporate "spokesmen" would have us believe.

2) Regardless of the answer to 1, Toyota has mismanaged the whole affair, perhaps in large part due to cultural behavior patterns. Still, denial and defensiveness is a human trait across all(?) cultures.

3) Is there anyone who believes the congressional circus we saw today will lead to truth? Can there be any doubt that a significant portion of the political class is rubbing its hands with glee at a good crisis? Cheered on no doubt by the UAW, and tort lawyers, and NBC et al.

4) Based on what is known, would you still buy a used 4Runner? a new 4Runner?

1. It's not known for sure that it is or is not an electronics problem. There have been, IIRC, seven investigations since 2002 or 2004 by NHTSA over SUA. They didn't find anything with the electronics. The likelihood of it happening is probably pretty low, given the number of Toyotas sold and that's on the road.

2. Toyota could've addressed it as soon as SUA was brought to them as a potential problem. But I guess they didn't think it was a big issue then. SUA has been brought to Toyota's attention several times a few years ago.

4. As I walk into my garage or look out onto my driveway, I don't regret buying any of the Toyotas I own. There's nothing else I want in place of my 4Runner or Tacoma. My Camry, maybe I should've bought a Subaru Legacy Spec B. But I don't care, it's manual and others can't drive it.

We don't know the whole truth yet and I've been speculating on my own part too. What I do like about this whole SUA thing has brought to light is, 1) there is a slim possibility that my Toyota might start "moving forward" on its own and I would know how to react if it tried to take off on me. (As I've mentioned before, drills and controlled environments are different than real life panic :happens: situations.) 2) I never knew before that Toyotas don't have the brake override that other manufacturers have implemented. With that said, if I'm getting a sedan, I've scratched the Lexus IS and GS off my list and going with an Infiniti G37.

I would buy a used 4th gen. The 5th gen, I would not. Not because of SUA, but there's more about it that I don't like than I do. But as it stands, when I need a minivan, I still have my sights set on the 3rd gen Sienna.

 

[inscarguy]

Did you ever notice that big thing on the firewall that's attached to the master cylinder resevoir? That the brake booster. That's what it is there for... But also keep in mind that the brakes are a mechanical system. Even without power assist, they will still function 100%.

BTW, most modern Toyotas have done away with brake boosters and instead use a pump for vacuum assist.

Your sarcasm is not appreciated!

i am not new to the mechanics of the automobile. if you read my post i mentioned a brake booster. let me explain how a booster works.

1- engine produces vacuum up until a certain RPM or WOT.
2- a brake booster stores vacuum and has a check valve either internally or in the vacuum line to prevent vaccum from leaving
3- in reality a booster when not receiving a constant vacuum will maybe have enough reserve vacuum for 2-3 pumps of the pedal. 99% of the people who would be in this situation would panic and the vacuum storage would be gone.
4- the reserve vacuum is in theory enough to stop a vehicle going about 30 MPH that HAS LOST POWER not going WOT and continuing to do so. once those few pumps of the brake pedal are gone so is the stored vacuum.

you go and drive at 70 MPH, hold you foot on the gas pedal to the floor and try to stop that vehicle while running WOT and see what happens. you are going to have a fight on your hands.

you can debate this all day but this is a fact that has been around since power brakes were introduced, with the exception of the few systems i mentioned earlier. if my memory serves me right most or all toyotas have a brake booster.

 

[Jed]

Your sarcasm is not appreciated!

I wasn't being sarcastic. How was I supposed to know that you know how a brake booster works?

But either way, it's not applicable to the current situation because modern Toyotas use a pump for braking assist instead of relying on engine vacuum. It's a much better system and it will not leave a driver without braking assist even at extended periods of wide open throttle.

 

[charlier180]

QUOTE=Jed;518681]I never said that. I never even implied that. I simply said that one lady claiming that she had both feed on the brake pedal, but her car kept accelerating was similar to the claims of Audi owners back when they were having the same problem. In fact, I also said that the difference was that no defects were ever found in Audi vehicles. I guess you must've skipped over that part of my post. [/QUOTE]

My apologies I guess I misunderstood what you said in this part of that post...

So my point here is that some random lady making such a claim with her Lexus could be the same thing that happened with Audi. She probably confused the brake pedal with the gas pedal. Either that, or she's just completely full of crap.

How many should they have used? 10? 20? 5000? Seriously, what would it take to convince you? The guy on the ABC news story only used one car too. It only takes one car to test and publish the results. We're not talking about statistics here, we're talking about how a car will react (and to some extent, speculating about how a driver would react also) under particular circumstances. Of course doing tests like these will be repeated with mulitple cars. That should be very obvious to you.

Testing ONE car and not finding a problem (C&D) or finding a problem (the ABC Report) is NOT enough of a testing sample to prove the matter one way or the other IMHO. It would take MORE THAN ONE car one way or the other to convince me. The C&D article does state very clearly "For our tests, we rounded up a disparate bunch: >>>>a<<<< V-6 Camry (a recalled vehicle), >>>>an<<<< Infiniti G37 convertible, and >>>>a<<<< hugely powerful 540-hp Roush Stage 3 Mustang." No where in that article did they state they used more than ONE vehicle of each type. It would appear that some people may have ASSumed they used more than one vehicle when their article clearly indicates they DID NOT. Last time I checked using "A" and "AN" does NOT denote multiple vehicles.

 

[Jed]

Testing ONE car and not finding a problem (C&D) or finding a problem (the ABC Report) is NOT enough of a testing sample to prove the matter one way or the other IMHO. It would take MORE THAN ONE car one way or the other to convince me. The C&D article does state very clearly "For our tests, we rounded up a disparate bunch: >>>>a<<<< V-6 Camry (a recalled vehicle), >>>>an<<<< Infiniti G37 convertible, and >>>>a<<<< hugely powerful 540-hp Roush Stage 3 Mustang." No where in that article did they state they used more than ONE vehicle of each type. It would appear that some people may have ASSumed they used more than one vehicle when their article clearly indicates they DID NOT. Last time I checked using "A" and "AN" does NOT denote multiple vehicles.

One car is enough to convince me because the test results would be repeatable on identical vehicles. There's just not that much variability. But like I said, we're not talking about statistics, so there doesn't need to be a representative sample. But still, as you already pointed out, they tested other vehicles as well and came to a similar result. That in itself should prove to the naysayers that brakes can overcome an engine under full throttle. As others have also mentioned, the real danger is brake fade, which usually occurs after repeated application (or long extended application) of the brakes.

 

[Dbadtoy2]

A few facts about Toyota......

Toyota has overtaken General Motors as the world’s largest automaker. (BBC News)

Toyota is the world’s most profitable automaker.

Toyota’s U.S. market share is over 15 percent and growing. (CNN)

The Toyota Camry has been the best selling car in America since 2002. (CNN)

The Lexus LS 430 has been the leading luxury brand model for seven consecutive years. (CNN)

Toyota annual sales jumped by more than 500,000 to 8.5 million vehicles in the 2007 fiscal year. (TMC Annual Report)

Toyota created the world’s first mass produced gas/electric hybrid car with the Prius.

Toyota sells more hybrids than all other manufacturers combined.

Toyota and Scion rank more vehicles in the top 10 of EPA fuel economy than any other manufacturer.

All Toyota and Lexus vehicles are certified as Low Emission Vehicles under California Air Resources Board standards and 75% earn Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle status.

At Toyota manufacturing plants, about 99% of scrap metal is recycled.
Toyota vehicles are 85% recyclable.

80% of all Toyota cars and trucks sold in the United States over the last 20 years are still on the road today.


Well I think the US Automakers with the help of the Media and US government is taking this opportunity to pin the Japanese carmakers to spruce up its US car industry.

 

[inscarguy]

I wasn't being sarcastic. How was I supposed to know that you know how a brake booster works?

But either way, it's not applicable to the current situation because modern Toyotas use a pump for braking assist instead of relying on engine vacuum. It's a much better system and it will not leave a driver without braking assist even at extended periods of wide open throttle.

if that is so then toyota's computer system must override the pump when at WOT because if there is an electronic pump supplying the booster with constant vacuum then it should be able to stop a vehicle. if the pump is deactivated at WOT like most A/C systems do then that would explain why people cant stop these cars at WOT.

 

[Jed]

if that is so then toyota's computer system must override the pump when at WOT because if there is an electronic pump supplying the booster with constant vacuum then it should be able to stop a vehicle. if the pump is deactivated at WOT like most A/C systems do then that would explain why people cant stop these cars at WOT.

And that's the whole point. Have you read the Car and Driver article yet? They had no problem stopping a Camry rigged for constant wide open throttle in a controlled environment (not out on public roads where they would endanger anyone) at high speeds. So this should serve as an example that there is still brake assist at wide open throttle.

It is also important to understand that the brakes will still function 100% even WITHOUT power assist. Think of it like power steering....if your power steering goes out, you'll still have steering, but it will require more effort. Same thing applies to power brakes.

 

[Jed]

if the pump is deactivated at WOT like most A/C systems do then that would explain why people cant stop these cars at WOT.

FYI-- it is the A/C compressor that is deactivated at WOT. But the reason for this is simple--it prevents the compressor from "stealing" power from the engine under full throttle. The compressor clutch is allowed to "free wheel" its pulley instead of having the crankshaft pulley waste HP turning it.

Now the brake booster pump is completely different because it is not driven by the crankshaft. Plus, there is still a vacuum resevoir that will provide assist for a few pumps of the pedal even with the engine off. Anyone can confirm that by pressing the brake pedal on their vehicle with the engine off and seeing how many pumps it takes before the pedal gets hard.

 

[bradj]

A few facts about Toyota......

Toyota has overtaken General Motors as the world’s largest automaker. (BBC News)

Toyota is the world’s most profitable automaker.

Toyota’s U.S. market share is over 15 percent and growing. (CNN)

The Toyota Camry has been the best selling car in America since 2002. (CNN)

The Lexus LS 430 has been the leading luxury brand model for seven consecutive years. (CNN)

Toyota annual sales jumped by more than 500,000 to 8.5 million vehicles in the 2007 fiscal year. (TMC Annual Report)

Toyota created the world’s first mass produced gas/electric hybrid car with the Prius.

Toyota sells more hybrids than all other manufacturers combined.

Toyota and Scion rank more vehicles in the top 10 of EPA fuel economy than any other manufacturer.

All Toyota and Lexus vehicles are certified as Low Emission Vehicles under California Air Resources Board standards and 75% earn Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle status.

At Toyota manufacturing plants, about 99% of scrap metal is recycled.
Toyota vehicles are 85% recyclable.

80% of all Toyota cars and trucks sold in the United States over the last 20 years are still on the road today.


Well I think the US Automakers with the help of the Media and US government is taking this opportunity to pin the Japanese carmakers to spruce up its US car industry.

+1

Toyota is evil says the congressman from detroit.... lol

 

[inscarguy]

FYI-- it is the A/C compressor that is deactivated at WOT. But the reason for this is simple--it prevents the compressor from "stealing" power from the engine under full throttle. The compressor clutch is allowed to "free wheel" its pulley instead of having the crankshaft pulley waste HP turning it.

i know that, i guess i have to be very specific in what i say because the "T"' s and "I" 's are getting crossed here.

i thought when i said A/C SYSTEM that would cover it.... guess not. as for the the vacuum reserve, i already mentioned the vacuum reserve in an earlier post about being able to pump the pedal with the system down. its usually depending on the size of the reserve and whats in the reserve cannister about 2-3 times. i know that what my GMC and 442's are. again some may be more or less.