The Weight Debate

[MojaveMadMan]

Ok so I am in the process of planning a 3rd gen build. I have been through pages and pages of build threads, man there are some long ones, (CoB 77 pages...) very great info though! Super helpfull!!!

So I have noticed a common theme amung almost all of them, and that is a weight problem. Plate bumpers front and back, sliders, roof racks, full skids... All things that I am planning on doing, but by the time people get all of these things they start to say how heavy their rigs are, and how slow they seem to be.

Now I know my post count is low on T4R, but I am no noob to Toyotas or offroad, had them my whole life and did 10 years professionally in the offroad business. So I am no slouch, and yes I searched, haha. But I want to know peoples thoughts on the discussion of weight. I see a lot of people build these beautifull rigs, and just about at the point where they seem to be running out of mods, they sell them or part them out because they are too heavy or slow, and they go bigger (LC, full size, etc).

So in your experience, because I know you have more 3rd gen experience than I, when is the turning point of when you have too much? When do you really see MPG's drop off (most of us use these as a DD too). When do you see a noticable power loss? What mods might you consider doing a little different? Does a super charger make up the difference? Or any other thoughts?

 

[Hoyal]

My last runner was weighed down with 34's, arb bumper, winch with steel cable, sliders and other things. My current 3rd gen will be getting tube bumpers and a winch with synthetic line. But to be honest I was getting about the same mileage on my other as I am the current one. Now I'm lifted on 33's and that's it. I do have a super charger to slap on eventually as well it should help, I love the 3.4 supercharged.

 

[4-Ripcord]

33's, front bumper, sliders, supercharger.. Still got 17 city/ 20+ hwy (19ish combined)

 

[Dark Lord]

I feel with 4.88's the truck doesn't seem THAT much slower. Once you re-gear I feel like it fixes the issue. I tried removing my skid plates to see if it affected the gas mileage or the speed of the truck. Not any noticeable difference with 4.88's. To be honest, even without mods, I don't think anybody bought this truck to join a race anyways.... My MPG averages 16 city/hwy though. At least the MPG is consistent. In the mountains I can get up to 19MPG. I wish these trucks had a 5-speed auto.

 

[white_n_slow]

First off, I completely ignore MPG. I just assume it's going to be crap and try not to pay too much attention when I'm filling it up.

I think the reason most people complain about a slow heavy rig is that they have added larger tires and heavy equipment and not properly geared their rig to compensate. As long as your're running 35" tires or smaller, you should be able to get adequate "pep" out of 5.29 gears, even if you are carrying extra weight.

 

[MojaveMadMan]

33's, front bumper, sliders, supercharger.. Still got 17 city/ 20+ hwy (19ish combined)

Read your build thread!! Sorry to see you part it out... Thanks for the info though!!! How was the power with the SC? Still badass after all the crap?

I feel with 4.88's the truck doesn't seem THAT much slower. Once you re-gear I feel like it fixes the issue. I tried removing my skid plates to see if it affected the gas mileage or the speed of the truck. Not any noticeable difference with 4.88's. To be honest, even without mods, I don't think anybody bought this truck to join a race anyways.... My MPG averages 16 city/hwy though. At least the MPG is consistent. In the mountains I can get up to 19MPG. I wish these trucks had a 5-speed auto.

Oh I agree with you on this one. I had a 2nd Gen Tacoma, and even with the 5 speed it was not fast. But that is my concern, I wouldn't want to see it slow down much more. My 3rd Gen Tacoma hauled serious ass in comparison. I know I won't see the power of the 4.0, but I don't want to be covered wagon slow either... Great pointer on the gears though, I always considered it a requirement of the build, but don't have much experience with new gears in on of my Toyotas, good to know gears can get you back to stock, then maybe a SC down to road to compete with the 4.0 envy I will have with my wifes 4th gen grocery getter, haha.

First off, I completely ignore MPG. I just assume it's going to be crap and try not to pay too much attention when I'm filling it up.

I think the reason most people complain about a slow heavy rig is that they have added larger tires and heavy equipment and not properly geared their rig to compensate. As long as your're running 35" tires or smaller, you should be able to get adequate "pep" out of 5.29 gears, even if you are carrying extra weight.

I feel like I cry at the pump every time I fill up my wifes 4th gen... I live in CA so shitty "green" gas, higher prices and a big tank hit the wallet hard every time... But for the 3rd gen project, I'm not too focused on MPG, just more curious for EXPO type trips. I got a 95 civic for my 90 miles a day commute... Thanks for the additional info on gears. It is good to hear that there are good solutions to the heavy rig delema.

My last runner was weighed down with 34's, arb bumper, winch with steel cable, sliders and other things. My current 3rd gen will be getting tube bumpers and a winch with synthetic line. But to be honest I was getting about the same mileage on my other as I am the current one. Now I'm lifted on 33's and that's it. I do have a super charger to slap on eventually as well it should help, I love the 3.4 supercharged.

Thats good to know! What is the power difference between the two? Jelly on the SC, I have always wanted a 3.4 SC'd!!!

 

[Hoyal]

From driving my current one with smaller tires to the 33's and comparing to my older one. It's better than my last but a bit slower on acceleration than with stock size street tires. I notice it a lot driving through the mountains but it still does well. We have tons of elevation gain and loss around Colorado so some times the lifted 3.4 gets a little sluggish but I enjoy driving it so I'm never in that big of a hurry.

 

[white_n_slow]

I feel like I cry at the pump every time I fill up my wifes 4th gen... I live in CA so shitty "green" gas, higher prices and a big tank hit the wallet hard every time... But for the 3rd gen project, I'm not too focused on MPG, just more curious for EXPO type trips. I got a 95 civic for my 90 miles a day commute... Thanks for the additional info on gears. It is good to hear that there are good solutions to the heavy rig delema.

If you want to cry at the pump, buy a FJ60 Maybe that's why my 3rd gen's MPG never really bothered me

 

[SilentYoda3]

If you want to cry at the pump, buy a FJ60 Maybe that's why my 3rd gen's MPG never really bothered me

I had a 1983 full sized bronco, 351 with a built 4-barrel carb. Man that thing had tons of power on and off the road! But of course it drank fuel like it was going out of style, so I completely understand your thinking. As long as I can keep 18+ i'm happy. I'm at 20-21 right now anyways. Hoping to keep it up there though. But in all honesty 1 mpg drop doesn't add up all that quickly. (or so I tell myself lol)

 

[4-Ripcord]

Read your build thread!! Sorry to see you part it out... Thanks for the info though!!! How was the power with the SC? Still badass after all the crap?

Thanks.

These trucks are all bricks, but it was a quick brick for sure.

SC is for sale BTW

 

[Dark Lord]

Well, if you are looking for gears I hear everyone recommends East Coast Gear Supply. As for the supercharger, although I wouldn't mind having one if my truck came with it, I would never fork up the money for one. I don't think the power gains would be enough to justify the price. Not to mention, I believe the 3.4 V6 is a very reliable engine, and I wouldn't want to compromise the integrity of the engine for a supercharger (but that's just my opinion). The purpose of my build is to have a reliable, capable, fuel efficient for it's capabilities, and robust truck. My 4runner makes all kinds of weird squeaking and random noises. It is rickety as shit, but there isn't a doubt in my mind it won't let me down as long as I don't let it down (take care of it with regularly scheduled maintenance).

I basically want a truck that I can be confident it will drive me to hell and back with minimal to no hiccups, and be able to easily run over zombies if the opportunity arises. From my understanding of engines, forced induction compromises reliability, but I'm not an expert.

 

[zooroadbaja]

If you're not concerned about mpg, then get a 80 series. I miss mine. The only reason I sold it was because 10mpg sucked. So I bought the T4R. Trucks were built the same. Bumpers front and rear, sliders, racks, 285s, and so on. Now I'm averaging 15.8mpg that's more street driving then freeway. Plus you know freeways in CA are more like parking lots.

 

[Dark Lord]

If you're not concerned about mpg, then get a 80 series. I miss mine. The only reason I sold it was because 10mpg sucked. So I bought the T4R. Trucks were built the same. Bumpers front and rear, sliders, racks, 285s, and so on. Now I'm averaging 15.8mpg that's more street driving then freeway. Plus you know freeways in CA are more like parking lots.

Yeah, straight six engines may be ultra reliable, but they are also ultra shitty on gas.

 

[MojaveMadMan]

If you want to cry at the pump, buy a FJ60 Maybe that's why my 3rd gen's MPG never really bothered me

I had a 1983 full sized bronco, 351 with a built 4-barrel carb. Man that thing had tons of power on and off the road! But of course it drank fuel like it was going out of style, so I completely understand your thinking. As long as I can keep 18+ i'm happy. I'm at 20-21 right now anyways. Hoping to keep it up there though. But in all honesty 1 mpg drop doesn't add up all that quickly. (or so I tell myself lol)

I had a 1990 Bronco with a 351... I loved it, I had it pre-run out a little bit with radius arms, coils, bilsteins, and hydro bumps up front, custom bumpers and such. I could plow through all kinds of shit in that thing and it was like riding in a 1985 Cadi. But ya, the pumps would always stop pumping at $100, and I never was able to fill an empty tank... Fun ass ride though!!!

Well, if you are looking for gears I hear everyone recommends East Coast Gear Supply. As for the supercharger, although I wouldn't mind having one if my truck came with it, I would never fork up the money for one. I don't think the power gains would be enough to justify the price. Not to mention, I believe the 3.4 V6 is a very reliable engine, and I wouldn't want to compromise the integrity of the engine for a supercharger (but that's just my opinion). The purpose of my build is to have a reliable, capable, fuel efficient for it's capabilities, and robust truck. My 4runner makes all kinds of weird squeaking and random noises. It is rickety as shit, but there isn't a doubt in my mind it won't let me down as long as I don't let it down (take care of it with regularly scheduled maintenance).

I basically want a truck that I can be confident it will drive me to hell and back with minimal to no hiccups, and be able to easily run over zombies if the opportunity arises. From my understanding of engines, forced induction compromises reliability, but I'm not an expert.

The SC is really a pipe dream. If I did one I would get a rebuild, do the extras to the bottom end, then have URD do the full deal to it from computers to dyno tune. I would be focused on reliability over HP though, I would want it to be something I could drive and never worry about breaking as long as I did the maintenance. But that would be like the last thing, I have some serious ambitions for this rig, cross between EXPO and mid-travel setup. I come from the Baja scene but fell in love with EXPO on the Mojave Road, so I want something I can do a little of both in!

If you're not concerned about mpg, then get a 80 series. I miss mine. The only reason I sold it was because 10mpg sucked. So I bought the T4R. Trucks were built the same. Bumpers front and rear, sliders, racks, 285s, and so on. Now I'm averaging 15.8mpg that's more street driving then freeway. Plus you know freeways in CA are more like parking lots.

I looked hard at an LC, I would want a 100 series though. I am an a-arm and mid-travel kind of guy. But once you get the right 100 series, and just a lift, I could build the whole 4runner. I don't need the extra load capacity, so it's not really a gain for me to have one...

 

[MojaveMadMan]

What are the big 5 of weight killers. I would guess bumpers, skids, sliders, drawers, and a winch... I think I want to try to design something that would "try" and keep the weight down on these items.

I want strong bumpers, but 3/16" is some heavy shit. Maybe try some 1/8" chromolly... But thats big bucks...

I know I want to also try some 1/4" aluminum skids with some ribs on the back side too. They might get a little more dinged up than the steel, but they will save some serious pounds, and aluminum is a lot stronger than people think once you get up to that thickness, that stuff is super rigid.

I did a lot of full aluminum bodies on sand cars, so I might venture into an all aluminum drawer system. I did a bunch of dashes and consoles with doors and even drawers, so I think it would be real trick to do in a 4runner.

Sliders... thats not something you really skimp on if you like your rocker panels... haha

 

[MojaveMadMan]

Thanks.

These trucks are all bricks, but it was a quick brick for sure.

SC is for sale BTW

Haha I wish.... Oh ya, I vote you consider a 3rd gen with a SAS kit for your trail rig!!!! haha

 

[Hepar]

I think any of the armor on its own isn't adding much, but when you add it all together, it definitely can be a lot. Especially considering these aren't the biggest rigs (both with size and engine power) to begin with. I know that I personally would like to add a rear bumper with a tire carrier, but I'm not going to until I get a supercharger. I'm not trying to race anyone, but would just like to be back at stock (or slightly above) power.

As far as switching to an LC, I think many people find that the size of the 3rd gens can be a bit limiting. To me it was one of its biggest selling points. It's the perfect mix of big and small for all of my needs.

 

[JWaldz]

I guess I can chime in here.. I wouldn't say it's a slug but it's not fast. I have no problem being in traffic and keeping up on the interstate. However, I would dread driving this tank without the 4.88's. That's where most of my help is from as I don't have any engine mods. I'd be quite interested in seeing how much my truck weighs now compared to its original weight.

 

[white_n_slow]

What are the big 5 of weight killers. I would guess bumpers, skids, sliders, drawers, and a winch... I think I want to try to design something that would "try" and keep the weight down on these items.

I want strong bumpers, but 3/16" is some heavy shit. Maybe try some 1/8" chromolly... But thats big bucks...

I know I want to also try some 1/4" aluminum skids with some ribs on the back side too. They might get a little more dinged up than the steel, but they will save some serious pounds, and aluminum is a lot stronger than people think once you get up to that thickness, that stuff is super rigid.

I did a lot of full aluminum bodies on sand cars, so I might venture into an all aluminum drawer system. I did a bunch of dashes and consoles with doors and even drawers, so I think it would be real trick to do in a 4runner.

Sliders... thats not something you really skimp on if you like your rocker panels... haha

IMO:

Sliders = not really that much weight if I can pick them up and move them around the garage without breaking a sweat.

Front bumper + winch = pretty damn heavy. 3 dudes to install without a hoist or jacks.

Rear bumper + spare tire = also pretty damn heavy. Depends on the build, but to hold your spare, it's gotta be pretty beefy

But the #1 weight killer is oversized tires. A single 35" tire can be a challenge for one man to mount, move around and otherwise handle. Consider that that is the single piece of equipment that is 1) unsprung weight, affecting the performance of the suspension 2) rotating mass, effecting acceleration, braking and changing direction 3) well, you've got 4 or 5 of them, so yeah, it kinda adds up.

 

[zooroadbaja]

I looked hard at an LC, I would want a 100 series though. I am an a-arm and mid-travel kind of guy. But once you get the right 100 series, and just a lift, I could build the whole 4runner. I don't need the extra load capacity, so it's not really a gain for me to have one...

the 80 series is hands down better then the 100 or 4runner for mid travel. I've had the 80 and 3rd Gen. Neither compare to my fully built trucks I use to own coilovers, bypass, hydro bumps at each corner, full cage and linked, but that's a whole different ball game. But the 80 handled really good out at Barstow. I wanted to put a better shock on it and bump stops but didn't keep it long enough to do so.

I'm on the fence about selling the 4Runner, because after dumping $4,000 into suspension I know it still wont be what I want. I just like this forum to much to sell it haha