Thoughts on Electric Turbo?

[Black798]

Hey everybody, so with the recent discontinuation of the trd supercharger and the outrageous cost of one or a turbo kit. Ive been rolling the concept of an electric turbo through my head. Now im not talking about one of those pos scams on ebay or the turbos that only work at full throttle. Im thinking of taking a real turbo compressor and putting it onto a variable speed brushless dc motor, possibly with a gear reduction system to achieve the necessary speeds. I would then take the compressor set up and place it inline between the air box and throttle body. Then to achieve the proper boost control i would have some sort of vacuum controller that would control the speed of the motor giving me entirely variable boost regardless of throttle position. This way i can eliminate the intercooler and the extensive piping. Overall I would plan on achieving roughly 5-6 psi of boost, so im safely inside the capability of stock components until i have the money for better fuel delivery.

So im just putting this thread out there to see what other peoples thoughts are on the idea. Call me cheap but i just cant justify the 4,000ish dollars for a turbo or trd supercharger. So if anyone else has some input let me know if im just a l high schooler that has no clue what im getting into or if i might be onto something.

 

[Twisted Sid]

If this was a good, or cheap alternative to an actual turbo or supercharger system, it would have already been done many times over.

 

[cashmoney]

$4000? I've seen the superchargers going for $2500 and you can do a turbo for under $1500.

 

[MStudt]

This is cheaper, and you'll get about the same outcome.

 

[KidVermicious]

Hey everybody, so with the recent discontinuation of the trd supercharger and the outrageous cost of one or a turbo kit. Ive been rolling the concept of an electric turbo through my head. Now im not talking about one of those pos scams on ebay or the turbos that only work at full throttle. Im thinking of taking a real turbo compressor and putting it onto a variable speed brushless dc motor, possibly with a gear reduction system to achieve the necessary speeds. I would then take the compressor set up and place it inline between the air box and throttle body. Then to achieve the proper boost control i would have some sort of vacuum controller that would control the speed of the motor giving me entirely variable boost regardless of throttle position. This way i can eliminate the intercooler and the extensive piping. Overall I would plan on achieving roughly 5-6 psi of boost, so im safely inside the capability of stock components until i have the money for better fuel delivery.

So im just putting this thread out there to see what other peoples thoughts are on the idea. Call me cheap but i just cant justify the 4,000ish dollars for a turbo or trd supercharger. So if anyone else has some input let me know if im just a l high schooler that has no clue what im getting into or if i might be onto something.

Please calculate the electrical draw necessary to build even a pound or two of thrust with your chosen turbo. Then consider where that electricity is going to come from. Then please consult the laws of thermodynamics. Finally, please smack yourself in the face three times and don't start any more threads like this.

 

[RedSled]

You made me :lol:

 

[Ed_C]

So you're basically trying to build a electric supercharger setup. The Valeo electric supercharger Audi is using in the RS5 TDI concept and upcoming SQ7 (sport version of the Q7 SUV) looks a lot like a turbo compressor housing with a motor in place of the exhaust housing.

I don't think it'll be cheap building a DIY version of this. The Audi setup uses a 9hp motor spinning at 70,000 RPM, using a 48-volt power supply...I can't even imagine how large a 9hp 12-volt electric motor would be or how much current that thing would need to spin it.
[MENTION=130022]Twisted Sid[/MENTION]

:laugh:

 

[Black798]

So you're basically trying to build a electric supercharger setup. The Valeo electric supercharger Audi is using in the RS5 TDI concept and upcoming SQ7 (sport version of the Q7 SUV) looks a lot like a turbo compressor housing with a motor in place of the exhaust housing.

Thats where I was getting the idea. Because ive been looking for the supercharger but havent seen it below 3,000 in while.

Please calculate the electrical draw necessary to build even a pound or two of thrust with your chosen turbo. Then consider where that electricity is going to come from. Then please consult the laws of thermodynamics. Finally, please smack yourself in the face three times and don't start any more threads like this

I am fully aware of the restrictions i have with my electrical system. That is why i sugested the gear ratio to decrease the needed power and to gain rpm. I appologize for cluttering the forum with a unnecessary post was just looking for some input.

I've seen the superchargers going for $2500 and you can do a turbo for under $1500.

If you dont mind, could you share where you are getting these prices, because i have not been able to find a turbo kit made by a well known for less the 2500


Sorry about the dumb idea. Just figured I would see what you guys thought about the idea.

 

[LookAtThatDog]

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[3bears]

whatever goes in...must come out.

so if you put on an electric turbo...might need a electric exsaust pusher

 

[cashmoney]

Build the turbo kit. They aren't complicated. And cruise the classifieds, craigslist, ebay, etc for the superchargers.

 

[98OzarksRunner]

It takes power to turn the compressor - quite a bit of it. In a turbo, the power comes from the heat of the exhaust flow (though it's a little more complicated than that). To turn a positive-displacement supercharger, like a Roots type (like the TRD), it takes a lot of power. To make 500+ HP on a 2003/2004 Cobra Mustang (4.6L DOHC) with the stock Eaton blower it takes about 80 HP just to turn the blower (I don't know what the TRD takes on a 3.4L but I'd guess 30-40 HP).

A centrifugal supercharger like you are describing will take less, but it will still take some. To make 5-6 lb boost on a 3.4L motor at 6000 RPM I would make a wild guess that it would take, maybe, 10-20 HP to turn the supercharger (likely closer to 15 based on formulas for airflow [roughly 400 CFM], desired pressure [5-6 psi], and assuming a 100% efficient compressor [which doesn't exist]). It would take a rather large 12V DC motor to turn it. Since 15 HP is roughly 11.25 KW, at 12 volts it would take almost 1000 amps to drive that motor! That is about 15 times more current than the alternator can supply, and probably twice what the battery can supply. You'd better figure on some huge wiring too. (That's why those 'electric superchargers' are a useless gimmick).

If you don't want to buy the TRD supercharger, and don't want to plumb a turbo, I'd see if you can find a used Vortech or ProCharger centrifugal supercharger, come up with some bracketry, and drive it from the crank pulley. I bought a Vortech for a 4.6L Mustang off ebay for about $300 once. There are a lot of them around.

 

[IBallEngineer]

I am fully aware of the restrictions i have with my electrical system. That is why i sugested the gear ratio to decrease the needed power and to gain rpm. I appologize for cluttering the forum with a unnecessary post was just looking for some input.






Sorry about the dumb idea. Just figured I would see what you guys thought about the idea.

Gear reduction, like a starter, actually slows down the output. In order to speed up the output, you need a really big gear, driving a small gear, like on your bicycle! But the kicker is, like on your bicycle, it takes more power to turn the big gear. That's why cars have low gears for taking off and high gears for going fast.

ound:

 

[Black798]

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Im not talking about one of those pos ebay kits.

Build the turbo kit. They aren't complicated. And cruise the classifieds, craigslist, ebay, etc for the superchargers.

Will continue doing it. Whats involved in the turbo kit. Im very experienced with natural aspiration but forced induction is not my ball game.

It takes power to turn the compressor - quite a bit of it. In a turbo, the power comes from the heat of the exhaust flow (though it's a little more complicated than that). To turn a positive-displacement supercharger, like a Roots type (like the TRD), it takes a lot of power. To make 500+ HP on a 2003/2004 Cobra Mustang (4.6L DOHC) with the stock Eaton blower it takes about 80 HP just to turn the blower (I don't know what the TRD takes on a 3.4L but I'd guess 30-40 HP).
If you don't want to buy the stock TRD supercharger, and don't want to plumb a turbo, I'd see if you can find a used Vortech or ProCharger centrifugal supercharger, come up with some bracketry, and drive it from the crank pulley. I bought a Vortech for a 4.6L Mustang off ebay for about $300 once. There are a lot of them around.

Thanks for the info. Illl look into the procharger. This helps explain why the technology of the electric turbo is so underdeveloped.

 

[gamefreakgc]

I like the thoughts, if no one ever thought outside of the box then nothing new would ever be invented.

I think you should keep studying about it, maybe tinker around on a small motor with a small blower/turbo first. Something you can't hurt, would hate to see you ruin your 4Runner. However, the power draw on a true electric blower would be enormous like others have said. You're not just powering a fan, it's a compressor.

 

[jeremyc74]

:twitch:

 

[D Farms]

so here's one thing a lot of you are overlooking, you are simply saying the power used to power the motor is just causing drag on the alternator. but at the same time, a supercharger causes drag on the engine. why does the supercharger work at all? because it allows the engine to burn fuel more quickly, and even more efficiently. its not all power in = power out, the engine isn't necessarily perfectly efficient, and you cant just consider what the output is only at one specific point.

the turbocharger on the other hand is much more efficient, using the wasted exhaust gas to compress the air. its conceivable that one could make an electric turbine generator that was driven by the exhaust, and have that in the rear of the truck, then have a second high power electric supercharger on the intake, and not one of these rinky dink ebay things, it would be based off of an actual turbo. whats the point you might ask, you can have a lot of boost whenever you want, not just in a certain rev range, because you can pull current from the battery, then when you are at wot, the electric turbine at the back can recharge the battery. in order to avoid alternator drag, a second battery could be used just for the supercharger, and it would recharge only via the turbine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_supercharger

 

[7echo]

I get it that the OP is sorta trying to cheat physics here, but dang guys. It would be better if we could deliver the bad news without beating on him so much, LOL. You never know, he might be tenacious enough to stumble onto something worthwhile.

 

[Brique]

I get it that the OP is sorta trying to cheat physics here, but dang guys. It would be better if we could deliver the bad news without beating on him so much, LOL. You never know, he might be tenacious enough to stumble onto something worthwhile.

Agreed.

 

[JayRolla]

so here's one thing a lot of you are overlooking, you are simply saying the power used to power the motor is just causing drag on the alternator. but at the same time, a supercharger causes drag on the engine. why does the supercharger work at all? because it allows the engine to burn fuel more quickly, and even more efficiently. its not all power in = power out, the engine isn't necessarily perfectly efficient, and you cant just consider what the output is only at one specific point.

the turbocharger on the other hand is much more efficient, using the wasted exhaust gas to compress the air. its conceivable that one could make an electric turbine generator that was driven by the exhaust, and have that in the rear of the truck, then have a second high power electric supercharger on the intake, and not one of these rinky dink ebay things, it would be based off of an actual turbo. whats the point you might ask, you can have a lot of boost whenever you want, not just in a certain rev range, because you can pull current from the battery, then when you are at wot, the electric turbine at the back can recharge the battery. in order to avoid alternator drag, a second battery could be used just for the supercharger, and it would recharge only via the turbine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_supercharger

Electric turbos are about to hit cars here soon. More electric hybrid style. Used to spool the turbo.

The dinky eBay ones don't push more than 3psi s where an NA motor can pull 3psi just breathing causing nothing but an intake restriction.