Time to beat the KDSS-Horse
- Thread starter AustinYo6
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Cytronus
New member
2016 Trail Premium with KDSS, lifted
I have a 2016 Trail with KDSS - which I absolutely love, having had experience with a non-KDSS SR5. I called a couple of local off-road specific lift shops in the bay area - one said KDSS would have to be removed, to which I questioned and the guy mention X-REAS, which isn't even an option on a 4runner trail. I told him that nicely and he got all defensive and up tight. They wanted $1700 for the labor alone and I would've had to have purchased the lift from them, otherwise they wouldn't do the lift at all. The second shop I called didn't seem too thrilled about doing a lift on a KDSS truck. They wanted $1850 for the labor. Crazy.
From the start, I had planned on lifting it myself so that I would, most importantly, know the parts and how the suspension works so that in the event of an issue on trail, I would know how best to fix it, as any serious off-roader should. I just wanted to get an idea of the cost and the reactions from these shops. The result was I had zero confidence in both of these "pro" off-road shops. Do it yourself because you care about doing it right and learning something.
I ended up performing the installation myself with the help of a few gracious friends, two from T4R (@InfamousRNR & [MENTION=100687]Konkordmusk[/MENTION]), two weeks ago at PitRow, a DIY shop with hydraulic lift paid for the by the hour. I installed a 3" ICON Stage 7 lift with the overland series rear springs to accommodate future mods and heavy loads. The lift took twice as long than expected (2 days or 18 hours) for a number of reasons, which I will elaborate on in my build thread soon. There are lessons that can be learned there to save you time.
During lift installation, the KDSS bars were disconnected on the lower ends, both front and rear and the piston was supported & compressed at all times, not allowed to extend much nor allowed to compress fully for more than brief moments. Immediately upon lift completion, passenger side lean was evident. I'd guess the passenger side was about 1" lower from visual inspection, especially up front. Nothing new there, it was expected with KDSS.
A week after install, I went down to Pismo Beach for the Yota Jamboree, drove around on the dunes and had a little fun, nothing too crazy. After putting about 700 miles down on that trip, the lean seems to have either completely disappeared or is substantially less, from visual inspection. Soon, after further settling, I will re-torque the components and take the "after" measurements to see if there's any lean.
Bottom line, a lift with KDSS can be done. It's not super easy and not the most fun thing to deal with but WORTH IT. For all you KDSS guys out there, especially those suffering from the lean post lift, check out the Land Cruiser forums. KDSS came to our 4Runners from the LCs. Those guys have had KDSS on their rigs for years and have all the expertise and tutorials you need to level the system out.
PM me for specifics or advice. Happy to help.
I have a 2016 Trail with KDSS - which I absolutely love, having had experience with a non-KDSS SR5. I called a couple of local off-road specific lift shops in the bay area - one said KDSS would have to be removed, to which I questioned and the guy mention X-REAS, which isn't even an option on a 4runner trail. I told him that nicely and he got all defensive and up tight. They wanted $1700 for the labor alone and I would've had to have purchased the lift from them, otherwise they wouldn't do the lift at all. The second shop I called didn't seem too thrilled about doing a lift on a KDSS truck. They wanted $1850 for the labor. Crazy.
From the start, I had planned on lifting it myself so that I would, most importantly, know the parts and how the suspension works so that in the event of an issue on trail, I would know how best to fix it, as any serious off-roader should. I just wanted to get an idea of the cost and the reactions from these shops. The result was I had zero confidence in both of these "pro" off-road shops. Do it yourself because you care about doing it right and learning something.
I ended up performing the installation myself with the help of a few gracious friends, two from T4R (@InfamousRNR & [MENTION=100687]Konkordmusk[/MENTION]), two weeks ago at PitRow, a DIY shop with hydraulic lift paid for the by the hour. I installed a 3" ICON Stage 7 lift with the overland series rear springs to accommodate future mods and heavy loads. The lift took twice as long than expected (2 days or 18 hours) for a number of reasons, which I will elaborate on in my build thread soon. There are lessons that can be learned there to save you time.
During lift installation, the KDSS bars were disconnected on the lower ends, both front and rear and the piston was supported & compressed at all times, not allowed to extend much nor allowed to compress fully for more than brief moments. Immediately upon lift completion, passenger side lean was evident. I'd guess the passenger side was about 1" lower from visual inspection, especially up front. Nothing new there, it was expected with KDSS.
A week after install, I went down to Pismo Beach for the Yota Jamboree, drove around on the dunes and had a little fun, nothing too crazy. After putting about 700 miles down on that trip, the lean seems to have either completely disappeared or is substantially less, from visual inspection. Soon, after further settling, I will re-torque the components and take the "after" measurements to see if there's any lean.
Bottom line, a lift with KDSS can be done. It's not super easy and not the most fun thing to deal with but WORTH IT. For all you KDSS guys out there, especially those suffering from the lean post lift, check out the Land Cruiser forums. KDSS came to our 4Runners from the LCs. Those guys have had KDSS on their rigs for years and have all the expertise and tutorials you need to level the system out.
PM me for specifics or advice. Happy to help.
Brandonium
Member
Good point about the LC forums. Seems to be less hostility there in regards to KDSS than here but yes there are some good posts in regards to it. I've been PM'ing people here that are known to have lifted KDSS trails and picking their brains.
It would appear that not all lift manufacturers install procedures include disconnecting the KDSS swaybar on the front. I was told for instance that the KING setup wants you to do the front without a disconnect however I believe that the OME BP-51 goes the other route.
Some get lean and others do not. Some believe that the closer you get to 3" with KDSS the more prone you are to experiencing lean. Thoughts on this? In the LC forums it was also mentioned that you can avoid lean by installing the lift with all 4 wheels off the ground but apparently that's not gospel as you did that and experienced the lean.
I do love my KDSS, wouldn't have one without it that's for sure.
It would appear that not all lift manufacturers install procedures include disconnecting the KDSS swaybar on the front. I was told for instance that the KING setup wants you to do the front without a disconnect however I believe that the OME BP-51 goes the other route.
Some get lean and others do not. Some believe that the closer you get to 3" with KDSS the more prone you are to experiencing lean. Thoughts on this? In the LC forums it was also mentioned that you can avoid lean by installing the lift with all 4 wheels off the ground but apparently that's not gospel as you did that and experienced the lean.
I do love my KDSS, wouldn't have one without it that's for sure.
wfo9
New member
They are all basically the same in terms of KDSS. nothing special about the lift for it....
KDSS does have a minior issue with the rear track bar making contact under flex... Icon has a bent trackbar to overcome this, but it is not really needed from my experience lifting KDSS trucks.
Cytronus
New member
[MENTION=143879]Brandonium[/MENTION], I'd say removing KDSS for any lift is the right thing to do in order to achieve the articulation and spacing required to fit the new components (springs and coilovers) in without difficulty. If it can be done without disconnecting KDSS, power to anyone that can. I can't see how though, unless maybe a spring compressor is used.
I'd agree that the more dramatic the lift is, the higher the likelihood of encountering a lean as it throws the neutral inherent setting of the KDSS system off more.
As for lifts, do your research. If you can afford ICON, you can't go wrong. I'm very impressed with it. The ride quality is very good, not bouncy over whoops, smooth, and no squeaks or weird noises. Excellent product.
I'd agree that the more dramatic the lift is, the higher the likelihood of encountering a lean as it throws the neutral inherent setting of the KDSS system off more.
As for lifts, do your research. If you can afford ICON, you can't go wrong. I'm very impressed with it. The ride quality is very good, not bouncy over whoops, smooth, and no squeaks or weird noises. Excellent product.
1engineer
Moderator
Here. http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/154230-how-lift-installation-kdss-equipped-vehicles.html
Neutral inherent setting? Really. I've been designing high pressure hydraulic circuits for 25 years and have never heard that one.
KDSS is not magic. There is no mystery. It is actually an extremely simple hydraulic circuit that has a couple of cylinders, two accumulators and a valve. No pumps, no motors, not complex pressure reducing circuits or proportional control, nothing. Why do lifted KDSS vehicles get the lean? The only place it can and that's the spring as that is the only thing that can produce the lean, or something that affects the spring.
NinjaOne
New member
Which is why non-KDSS vehicles are also subject to the lean as well. Lean is from weight distribution on the vehicle. Stock has different springs drive/passenger sides to account for the lean. Most aftermarket lifts don't have separate springs for the driver/passenger sides and this introduces a lean.
craigster59
New member
Could you post the guy in North Hollywood. I tried sending you PM's but they don't seem to be going through. Thanks!
I've installed the TRD Pro shocks with .5" spacers on my 2016 TEP with kdss and have no issues. Any shops that claim lifts can't be installed with KDSS are not educated on the system. The only caveat is if you are lifting above 3" and if so you bought the wrong truck anyway...
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wfo9
New member
I have to disagree with you on that point. I've worked on the lean several times and the KDSS system clearly causes it. It is well documented in the repair manual and troubleshooting guide.
I'll post a snippet below straight from the repair manual. The tilt calibration often resolves it until the system goes out of balance again. If it was the springs... that would not fix it. The problem I found is it keeps coming back. The only permanent solution is a spacer/adjustment of the springs to counter it. Which is not 100% ideal, but not that big of a deal. It will tilt oddly from time to time on the trail with this solution but goes back to normal pretty quickly.
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1engineer
Moderator
I put the part in there about something that affects the spring...
wfo9
New member
Well yea.. gravity affects the spring. Lol. there seems to be a disbelief that the kdss lean is different than a normal lift lean. It is different.... But not sure it matters all that much. Solutions end up being similar.
Brandonium
Member
In reality though if you look through the thread of lifted vehicles the norm appears to be 3" and under for even those 4Runners without KDSS.
Brandonium
Member
But the lean is not guaranteed to everyone right? Or is it as simple as some take measurements and report back here while others throw in a lift and go about their business never checking?
cryption1
New member
So what is done different between those who do get the lean and those who don't? There has to be a difference in installation. Maybe the order the KDSS is disconnected, or if it's let to fully extend a piston? Something has to be different to cause lean vs no lean. Once we can as a community identify the differences....maybe we can resolve the lean issue
1engineer
Moderator
Look, as far as I know only TWO out of thousands have had any problem with their KDSS so I wouldn't worry... and I own a KDSS 4Runner.
That's what happens when people do not read the whole post or thread. Recently a guy here was positive his KDSS was bad in his first post. Near the end of the thread he realized he was wrong and posted it but people who read only his first post jumped to the conclusion that his KDSS was bad, all because of an oil spot on his driveway. That's not definitive evidence.
If you lift, you might get a lean, you might not. If you do not want to take that chance then don't lift it. Simple. Posting about it won't help. If you do lift it and get a lean just live with it or get a spacer on one side like everyone else has.
cryption1
New member
Right but that's the point I'm trying to make. If some get it, and some don't ... something is done different. The whole "deal with it" may be something we could prevent if we could figure out what difference there was in hardware, or installation, or something between those that get it and those that don't. I understand correlation doesn't imply causation, but more often then not there is a differing variable that can be reproduced to cause a result - in this case the lean. Is it a big deal that there's a little lean? No not really. But it really tickles my curiosity...
Brandonium
Member
In researching the LC forums I had originally thought that the lean issue was due to the vehicle not being raised off of all 4 wheels prior to screwing around with KDSS but this does not appear to be the cause.
1). Are variances in suspensions across vendors enough to cause this? Admittedly not an expert here so I really have no clue if this could be a contributor.
2). Is it due to procedure?
3. Is is due to height of lift? Has anyone with a 1" increase had lean? Over 2"?
There's a cause for sure but how do you get all these variables when many that do these lifts are not aware of things they should be looking out for until after the fact?
1). Are variances in suspensions across vendors enough to cause this? Admittedly not an expert here so I really have no clue if this could be a contributor.
2). Is it due to procedure?
A. Have those that have installed springs in the front without disconnecting KDSS experienced lean vs. those that do go the disconnection route?
B. Does it have anything to do with disconnecting the front while leaving the rear connected?
C. Does it affect those that let KDSS pistons hang down as opposed to those who ratchet strap them securely before disconnecting?
3. Is is due to height of lift? Has anyone with a 1" increase had lean? Over 2"?
There's a cause for sure but how do you get all these variables when many that do these lifts are not aware of things they should be looking out for until after the fact?
1engineer
Moderator
The problem is nobody wants to F up and have a $3K repair bill just because they turned a bleed screw too much.
The reality of it is it's a simple circuit, but there are very few people out there who know enough to be confident in making the adjustments, and that includes the dealers. In addition to that, I could do a detailed write up with incredible documentation and photos and I guarantee you that someone would still screw it up when performing the procedure. Would I do it? Absolutely, but I am an engineer used to doing testing and troubleshooting and adjusting on multi million dollar machines. Asking an accountant with a crescent wrench and four beers into a six pack on a Saturday afternoon in his driveway do this correctly is asking for disappointment.
Remember that the dealers, even Lexus dealers, hardly ever mess with KDSS because A)They seldom break and B)The people who modify their suspensions with KDSS are unicorns. Sure, on this forum there are maybe 50 or so in three years but compare it to the 100K 4Runners sold a year and they are rare. Reading this forum skews reality. We are all enthusiasts and sometimes it's hard to remember that everybody doesn't modify the crap out of their 4Runners. The truth is hardly anyone does. It's like the Trail Edition 4Runner... reading this forum you would think that Trails make up 60% of sales. The reality is Trails make up around 7% of sales and KDSS equipped 4Runners make up less than half of the 7% overall. So to think that there would be experts at every dealer on KDSS is a little absurd. Right now our local dealer, who sells an average of 15 4Runners a month, has around 200 vehicles on the lot. He has three 4Runners. He seldom gets a Trail with KDSS. Very few modify any 4Runner and even fewer modify the KDSS equipped 4Runner. It is akin to being a #2 screw thread specialist.
