I disagree. I don't think there's a car that you can buy today that anyone would say should be avoided at all costs. In fact, making a statement like that in a magazine would most certainly lead to a lawsuit that would be difficult to defend unless the magazine could prove its case. The only time you'll ever see anything like that is when Consumer Reports feels that a car is inherently unsafe and a threat to public safety. And even then, it usually results in a lawsuit. Just look back at Suzuki's Samurai for an example.
Timely review, 4Runner Trail v. Jeep GC
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I disagree. I don't think there's a car that you can buy today that anyone would say should be avoided at all costs. In fact, making a statement like that in a magazine would most certainly lead to a lawsuit that would be difficult to defend unless the magazine could prove its case. The only time you'll ever see anything like that is when Consumer Reports feels that a car is inherently unsafe and a threat to public safety. And even then, it usually results in a lawsuit. Just look back at Suzuki's Samurai for an example.
Consumer Reports? Seriously? They don't even accept advertising in their magazine, so how can they possibly be influenced by advertising dollars?
It'd be really foolish to think that every magazine, person, publication of any type or whatever else that is being paid by whatever entity is not swayed at all towards looking at them in a positive light.
I think, in general, it's really foolish to believe all editors (or even MOST) are truly unbiased in whatever way to begin with.
Here's a decent story - I would really find it hard to believe this doesn't happen quite a bit
PC World Editor Quits Over Apple Story | Epicenter| Wired.com
I think, in general, it's really foolish to believe all editors (or even MOST) are truly unbiased in whatever way to begin with.
Here's a decent story - I would really find it hard to believe this doesn't happen quite a bit
PC World Editor Quits Over Apple Story | Epicenter| Wired.com
LongBallLarry
New member
SeattleMike
New member
That would explain the lack of auto magazine subscriptions in my house.
Since "most people" do not actually buy automotive-centric magazines, by your own logic, most people must assume the reviews are biased. People buy magazines for all kinds of reasons, but you can't prove that "most people" buy them for their belief in the veracity of the reviews any more than I can prove "most people" buy them for the pretty pictures.
Common sense should tell you that magazines make money selling advertising pages. Far and away, any magazines largest source of revenue is ad sales, not subscription or rack sales. How else can they afford to discount the subscription price so heavily from the cover price if they were not making money from another revenue stream. Common sense also should tell you that the single largest buyer of advertising in any auto magazine would be the auto companies. When GM lays out $180k to get it's new car on the cover of Motor Trend, the question of bias does not seem far fetched. They don't have to outright lie. There are far more subtle ways to present things in a better light than they would otherwise receive. Being open to a suggested comparison rather than a more natural one, driving on a pre-selected course rather than the freeway in LA during rush hour, or providing a "scoop"; a sophisticated approach to misdirect the reader's attention or a conscious decision to edit out certain negative connotations works far better than a blatant lie. Don't forget that magazines like Car & Driver would be screwed if they got frozen out buy a manufacturer; no previews, no test cars, no insider access, and no early information would put them weeks and months behind their competition in getting relevant content into their magazine. They would go broke if they had to buy these models themselves to drive them rather than using review vehicles provided by the manufacturer.
Here is the final quote from Truck Trend's 2001 review of the Pontiac Aztec, the ugliest thing GM has ever made:
Here are the 2010 ad rates for Motor Trend on page three. Chrysler/Fiat absolutely need to the GC to be a winner. It's not hard to see how they could arrange for favorable comparisons in order to showcase the GC in a better light.
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Jesse1983
5th Gen Moderator
I think this cover a few months back proves what's being said here.
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sandcrawler
Senior Member
think about what you're saying for a second. a fair number of people don't believe what's printed in the NY Times (or the WSJ, etc.) is fully representative of the truth but these institutions are still pillars of their industry. the reality is that most people simply don't think about these things. period. full-stop. people are busy, and those individuals who do consider these matters have to take it all in and decide for themselves on a case-by-case basis because parsing information is what grown-ups do.
hey, i'm just sharing my professional background as it relates to this thread. you are, of course, free to go with your gut. i used to believe in the Easter bunny, fwiw.
um, my feelings aren't hurt because the Trail didn't "win" the comparison. i'm just sharing my experience that, whether you believe it or not, big-spender advertisers do have power over the publications in which they advertise.
that's just absurd. consider, for example, that legions of people in the advertising industry have an intimate, personal knowledge of exactly how advertising works: what makes an ad effective; how to craft a message; how to create positive cognitive associations (often emotional — not rational) that have proven effective in inducing consumers to choose Brand X over Brand Y. but people in advertising are consumers too. having that insider knowledge doesn't make them ignore advertising — or immune to its power.
just because i know how the publishing industry works doesn't mean i disregard it entirely. duh, i read! again, parsing information is what grown-ups do.
Thai
Elite Member
Actually, i kinda agree with Jed. I don't think that advertising dollars have THAT much influence on test outcomes. C&D, for years, was accused by Lexus owners of favoring BMW. But if you read their reasoning, then you can see why certain BMWs won. Hondas won a lot too on C&D. Why? Because C&D favor sporty cars. Recently, as BMW got all electronic and synthetic with their stuff, C&D is giving the win to other manufacturers that offer more roadfeel, more feedback, etc...rightfully so. Many magazines now are wowed by the lexus IFA...are the Porsche owners gonna blame C&D for being influenced by Lexus dollars? Did Buick owners blame C&D for taking Toyota dollars when C&D awarded the Avalon with the win???
This particular test is not perfect, but it is a car magazine, not an off-road magazine. You can see where they place the emphasis. Are you guys surprised at the result after reading where the emphasis was placed?? The new Jeep GC is a freaking crossover, based on a pure crossover (Mercedes ML).
For these reviews, i just read and take out information that I NEED FOR MY PURPOSE. I am a body-on-frame-solid-axle kinda guy...so, i don't give a crap about who won, but i do care about certain things in the test...things that i care about.
And yes, Buick is making a comeback. Their recent offerings are pretty good. Actually, Buick has never really fallen in quality.
This particular test is not perfect, but it is a car magazine, not an off-road magazine. You can see where they place the emphasis. Are you guys surprised at the result after reading where the emphasis was placed?? The new Jeep GC is a freaking crossover, based on a pure crossover (Mercedes ML).
For these reviews, i just read and take out information that I NEED FOR MY PURPOSE. I am a body-on-frame-solid-axle kinda guy...so, i don't give a crap about who won, but i do care about certain things in the test...things that i care about.
And yes, Buick is making a comeback. Their recent offerings are pretty good. Actually, Buick has never really fallen in quality.
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In all fairness, Buicks have typically not gotten their models until the bugs were worked out. The highly rated models on the recent JD Power Durability study (3 years) were all based on 5+ year old platforms/models.
I did see a loaded to the hilt Enclave broken down w/ the hood up on the interstate this past weekend. Looked like the family was on their way to the beach. True Delta shows the Enclave as pretty poorly rated. It, the Saturn, and the GMC Acadia that were all off the same platform range from average to bad. I don't know that the euro designed Buicks will do well or not, though. Depends if the issues, if any, were design or manufacturing related.
Well according to you I fall in the minority camp. Do I think they falsify tests - no. Do I think they make one brand sound a littler better to make sure that they don't tick off the wrong person -- absolutetly. It is a business and it is a business that is in hard times (any printed product is) they can't have BMW as a major sponsor and rip their cars. Maybe they stack it a little bit by picking the right model to compete with, maybe they write things a little nicer than they perceived it.
Will they come out and say that Honda is a horrible brand - no of course not but they may just lower a rating just a tad to make things look a little better.
Seriously you don't think that money influences absolutely everything that you read and see in the media?
EDIT: 2 more points
1) One way to skew things is to run the GC against the TE and not the limited. It really doesn't make sense especially not when they "Value" the GC's every day use. Then pick a vehicle in that category and not the speced out unit for off-roading.......
2) I buy car magazines to see what overall thoughts they have. Like the FJ cruiser - everybody ripped the visability and the first time I got into it I looked for that. If I would have read something positive then I would considered that. I read the articles and then I go and make my own opinion about those things. It is a good starting point especially if you don't believe that what is in there is fact
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Who stood to make a lot of money by reporting 5+ million Toyotas going out of control? The MSM. Who is being awfully quiet now that most investigations are finding that people were pushing the wrong f'ing pedal? Yep, the MSM. They aren't quite so keen to get the news out there when it isn't getting people in a panic and boosting ratings.
Basically, I don't trust the media as far as I can throw them.
Definitely, Motor Trend is a huge GM sycophant. Those 5 pages ads they run that look like reviews and are twice as thick as the regular pages are extremely annoying!
Thai
Elite Member
Why do you guys suppose Toyota does not do the same thing as GM in terms of advertising in these mags?? Toyota is very profitable...and thus has tons of cash. And there are millions of folks who read these magazines (Consumer Reports, C&D, MT, R&T, etc.). And if GM and/or BMW thinks that it is profitable to advertise in these mags, then why isn't Toyota doing the same thing?? You would think that, with all Toyota resources and money, they could easily invest in a magazine to get the mag to make Toyota a winner every single time. That maybe is the cheapest form of advertisement! You guys say that it is so simple, then why doesn't Toyota do it?
Koz
New member
ALL media is bias in one way or another. The car rag mags have always given the advantage to the latest released vehicle regardless of their actual performance abilities. They would even not include certain dated models because they knew it would look obvious as to their bias. If they had to they would use criteria such as “fun to drive” as the deciding factor. When was the last time you seen past reliability or resale value even included as criteria? The ONLY place you are going to get accurate information about a vehicle is from actual owners over a period of time. To think that advertizing dollars doesn’t affect the outcome of ANY rag mag’s opinion is simply being naive! There is also political motivation that causes bias. You don’t think one moment that there wasn’t a WITCH HUNT going on to hurt Toyota, to help the other brands. Do you honestly think that over night Ford magically became the most reliable and best car manufactured? Ford comes out with a V6 in the Mustang this year that has 300hp and gets 30mpg and it is the talk of the industry yet this was accomplished by Toyota many years ago. It is the media and politicians that was/is on mission to help domestic sales by bringing down Toyota. Do you honestly believe Toyota was the only manufacture that was experiencing sudden acceleration? There are recalls all the time but the only ones that make headlines are from Toyota. They are easing up now because they have accomplished their mission! Unfortunately most people honestly believe what they read and are fed from the media. This comparison is just another example of trying to help domestic sales and kiss up to their advertizing clients.
Koz
Koz
LongBallLarry
New member
Toyota does do it. They all do it. Thing is no car co. can buy up everything. Yes, even Toyota has a budget.
maelo
New member
Hello......
Hey guys personally I think Toyota as a company didn't bother to advertise as much as other companies because lets face it they were on top of the world! They past Gm,Ford, Dodge etc.. in sales and became the biggest car company. We have not even started to talk about reliability. -Come on everyone knows how great they hold up! Now for 2010 they might start to pour some $$$$ for advertising due to all the negative publicity. I'm sure they will start to do it bigger & provide longer extended warranties. "That's just my own 2 cents.":boxer:
Hey guys personally I think Toyota as a company didn't bother to advertise as much as other companies because lets face it they were on top of the world! They past Gm,Ford, Dodge etc.. in sales and became the biggest car company. We have not even started to talk about reliability. -Come on everyone knows how great they hold up! Now for 2010 they might start to pour some $$$$ for advertising due to all the negative publicity. I'm sure they will start to do it bigger & provide longer extended warranties. "That's just my own 2 cents.":boxer:
LongBallLarry
New member
Toyota does as much advertising as any other manufac in the world. They scaled down this year due to the PR issues.
3x4runnerOwner
New member
I have no problem with the review. Toyota should be applauded for the Trail Edition. I love mine, and I bet it would it would outperform the GC off-road even with the air-suspension. I'm sure the GC is a nice vehicle, I just personally like my SUV to have some balls. If I wanted a cross-over, I'd buy a Lexus before I shelled out 45K on Jeep.
Thai
Elite Member
I think that it is equally naive to think that Toyota does not pump dollars into the media. Look guys, Lexus has been losing to BMW for many years now...long before Toyota became #1. So, where do you guys draw the line?
As i have argued with Koz many moons ago, I would buy a Lexus IS350 over any BMW 3 series (not named M3) in a heartbeat. But, at the same time, i do appreciate what the 335i brings to the table. Now, is my opinion shaped solely by the mags? No, but i gather information that i need from them to make a reasonable decision.
You guys talk about testing reliability or durability...is that really the job of MT or C&D?? Don't we have JD Powers or Consumer Reports for that? Aren't MT or C&D's job is to test a car's performance (yes, including "fun to drive")? And shouldn't GM or Audi sue JD Powers or CS for accepting Lexus dollars because Lexus (and Toyota) keeps on beating them every year??!! Should we assume that Consumer Reports is on Lexus payroll? Oh wait, you guys say that THAT is different! Is it?? Isn't this the same logic that some of you are using??
My point is that different mags use different criteria for their tests and ranking. You just pick the mag that fits what you are looking for. If you want reliability, then buy JD Powers stuff or Consumer Reports.
BTW, didn't the Lexus LS400 win in C&D comparo many years ago when it first came out? Was C&D on Lexus payroll at that time? I am sure many BMW and Mercedes fans said that, right?!
As i have argued with Koz many moons ago, I would buy a Lexus IS350 over any BMW 3 series (not named M3) in a heartbeat. But, at the same time, i do appreciate what the 335i brings to the table. Now, is my opinion shaped solely by the mags? No, but i gather information that i need from them to make a reasonable decision.
You guys talk about testing reliability or durability...is that really the job of MT or C&D?? Don't we have JD Powers or Consumer Reports for that? Aren't MT or C&D's job is to test a car's performance (yes, including "fun to drive")? And shouldn't GM or Audi sue JD Powers or CS for accepting Lexus dollars because Lexus (and Toyota) keeps on beating them every year??!! Should we assume that Consumer Reports is on Lexus payroll? Oh wait, you guys say that THAT is different! Is it?? Isn't this the same logic that some of you are using??
My point is that different mags use different criteria for their tests and ranking. You just pick the mag that fits what you are looking for. If you want reliability, then buy JD Powers stuff or Consumer Reports.
BTW, didn't the Lexus LS400 win in C&D comparo many years ago when it first came out? Was C&D on Lexus payroll at that time? I am sure many BMW and Mercedes fans said that, right?!
