Timely review, 4Runner Trail v. Jeep GC

[Thai]

If GM is paying MT, then why is it that the Pontiac Solistice is on everyone's shit list?! :roadkill: If BMW is paying C&D, then why did Audi A6 beat BMW 5 series?? Is Audi paying the bills now at C&D? When R&T gushed about the Lexus IFA, should we assume that Lexus is now paying R&T? Oh wait, C&D and R&T share the same parent company!! I am really confused now!

And in this review: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews..._nissan_maxima_toyota_avalon-comparison_tests

Apparently, GM and Ford were not paying C&D enough! Hell, even Kia was giving more money to C&D back in 2005!

 

[Thai]

One more post...actually, several of the mags DEFENDED Toyota's acceleration issues...and some even did tests to defend Toyota. Not one of you guys appreciated this? But, whenever a Toyota vehicle loses in a comparo, then you guys just trashed the magazine? Aren't we being bias OURSELVES??

 

[captainnemojr]

I do wish my Limited came with some of those off-road toys the Trail has, but then again, I don't off-road except when duck hunting. And even then, I don't climb over rocks. I wanted the Limited mainly for the full-time 4x4, so I won't have to worry in rain or snow or wherever I go.

 

[Quentin]

If GM is paying MT, then why is it that the Pontiac Solistice is on everyone's shit list?! :roadkill: If BMW is paying C&D, then why did Audi A6 beat BMW 5 series?? Is Audi paying the bills now at C&D? When R&T gushed about the Lexus IFA, should we assume that Lexus is now paying R&T? Oh wait, C&D and R&T share the same parent company!! I am really confused now!

And in this review: 2005 Buick Lacrosse vs. Chrysler 300, Ford Five Hundred, Kia Amanti, Nissan Maxima, Toyota Avalon - Comparison Tests

Apparently, GM and Ford were not paying C&D enough! Hell, even Kia was giving more money to C&D back in 2005!

The solstice is on everyone's shit list because it is a 3000lb roadster that is the size of Ronald McDonald's shoe. It is 500lbs more than a Miata!!! And the top is horribly designed.

Anyway, you are naive if you think that ad money will make a bad car get good reviews. You are also naive if you think ad money has zero bearing on the reviews. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Look, Toyota pays my bills. I am always going to have a favorable bias toward Toyota because, honestly, they have been very, very good to me and my family. I wouldn't have the life I do without them. That said, I also criticize Toyota for not having a 6AT in the Highlander, still running the old 1GR in the Tacoma, not offering anything sporty, and phoning in some of the interior material quality of late. When someone asks me about Toyotas, I really try my damned to give them an honest opinion and often even suggest other vehicles to look at... but you have to know that there is some bias in what I'm saying because Toyota has been good to me. We're all human and no one is truly objective. Heck, many journalist are flown to Europe to check out the latest and greatest. You can't tell me that sweet SWAG like that doesn't influence their opinion of the vehicle.

 

[qs933]

If I had to choose between the 4Runner TE and the GC Limited for a several day loan, it'd be a close call, but I'd take the GC. More features, leather, etc.

If I had to choose between the 4Runner TE and the GC Limited for several years of actual ownership, I'd take the 4Runner. Chrysler reliability and resale scares me, and that outweighs the features and other niceties.

Unfortunately, some people make decisions for the latter based on some journalist's decision for the former.

 

[Koz]

Koz, which Toyota/Lexus V6 gets 300 hp and has >30 mpg?? We're talking EPA, right?

I have gotten 30 mpg with my IS (As many others), not EPA. I also spank the V8 (315hp) Mustangs.

Koz

 

[Koz]

I think that it is equally naive to think that Toyota does not pump dollars into the media. Look guys, Lexus has been losing to BMW for many years now...long before Toyota became #1. So, where do you guys draw the line?

As i have argued with Koz many moons ago, I would buy a Lexus IS350 over any BMW 3 series (not named M3) in a heartbeat. But, at the same time, i do appreciate what the 335i brings to the table. Now, is my opinion shaped solely by the mags? No, but i gather information that i need from them to make a reasonable decision.

I guess you haven’t heard about the problems with 335i’s engine! Let’s see, BMW is on their 4th redesigned HPFP (High pressure fuel pump). They are experiencing an approx 34% failure rate and a 20% failure rate for a replacement pump. Also from what I'm being told by friends that own these engines, the injectors are failing at an even higher rate. Two of my friends have thrown in the towel and cut their loses and got rid of them. They refused to be driving around with a vehicle that can go into limp mode at any time (And have).

It is just amazing that the 3.0 TT BMW engine is still being awarded/recognized as one of the "International Engine of the Year", with all the problems and failures it has experienced. Also the fact that BMW itself is fazing it out because they can not fix it.

Koz

 

[jwyshrek]

Let the battle begin...4runner vs. Grand Cherokee

2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee V-6 Limited vs. 2010 Toyota 4Runner Trail Edition - Comparison - Motor Trend

 

[Thai]

I have gotten 30 mpg with my IS (As many others), not EPA. I also spank the V8 (315hp) Mustangs.

Koz

Then i am sure that a 2011 V6 Mustang can get 35 mpg along your same route. Lets not get too bias here Koz. Compare fuel economy on common grounds, not by neighbor's of a neighbor story.

EPA provides equal ground to compare vehicles fuel economy. The new EPA method is quite close to the average driver. So, your Lexus gets 25 mpg on PREMIUM gas on the highway. The 2011 V6 Mustang gets 31 mpg on REGULAR gas on the highway. 300 horses with the highway economy of a 4-cylinder on REGULAR gas. THAT IS A BIG ACHIEVEMENT in my opinion! So, yeah, Ford is true in their advertisement...and your Lexus IS is not even close. And yes, the new Mustang V6 will save money on gas by a significant amount over your V6.

Yeah, btw, the new 2011 Mustang GT will spank your IS butt all day long...why talk about the old GT, when you can talk about the new one?? The V6 may even give you a run for the money too!

 

[Thai]

I guess you haven’t heard about the problems with 335i’s engine! Let’s see, BMW is on their 4th redesigned HPFP (High pressure fuel pump). They are experiencing an approx 34% failure rate and a 20% failure rate for a replacement pump. Also from what I'm being told by friends that own these engines, the injectors are failing at an even higher rate. Two of my friends have thrown in the towel and cut their loses and got rid of them. They refused to be driving around with a vehicle that can go into limp mode at any time (And have).

It is just amazing that the 3.0 TT BMW engine is still being awarded/recognized as one of the "International Engine of the Year", with all the problems and failures it has experienced. Also the fact that BMW itself is fazing it out because they can not fix it.

Koz

The bottom line, for C&D or MT, is that the 335i still performs best in class. What you need to do Koz (in order to lower your anxiety) is to subscribe ONLY to Consumer Reports and JD Powers...otherwise, you will be disappointed by these PERFORMANCE-oriented magazines.

BTW, i don't think that i see much BMW advertisements in these mags anyways...certainly not anymore than lexus or Mercedes. In fact, MT in a recent review awarded the M3 over the Caddy CTS-V coupe...despite GM advertisements everywhere! How do you guys explain that? How about the Avalon beating Buicks in 2005?

For example, my Sienna lost to the Honda Ody in the last C&D comparo...do you see me cry about it?? No, i understand why the Ody got the nod...it is a more fun to drive vehicle with better steering feel. Do i care about these things in a minivan? Nope. So, i am OK with the comparo.

 

[Thai]

It is the media and politicians that was/is on mission to help domestic sales by bringing down Toyota.Koz

Hmmm, have you guys seen this: How To Deal With Unintended Acceleration - Tech Dept. - Auto Reviews - Car and Driver

So, how is C&D helping the domestics by defending Toyota in this article?? You guys are confusing me now!:violin:

Oh how about this GM whore (aka Motor Trend) article: http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_1003_unintended_acceleration_test/index.html

Wow, MT is trying some sort of advance reverse psychology here!!

 

[mgrande]

Out of everybody arguing about these different reviews and how they should have gone, have you thoroughly tested all the vehicles in question and drawn your own conclusions? Maybe some BMW's are better and maybe some GM vehicles actually hold their weight. I know my dads silverado has been through hell and back. The 4runner view is understandable, your comparing a truck to a independent suspended luxury suv, of course the average person will pick the latter. A fair test would be a little different but they dont always get to pick what vehicles they get.

 

[BrianLSU]

I think it's a decent review and I also think we could all agree that the Land Rover has the most bells, whistles, power, great off road and on, etc. The Jeep has a little less with the 4Runner in third.

If I had money to piss away and time to spend with endless visits to the dealer for repairs, I would have bought a Land Rover. If I had a lobotomy, the Jeep. Reviews are nice, look what CR did to fix the GX, but they never tell the whole story. Reviews are good to wet your appetite, talk to owners when you want a real review.

 

[Quentin]

Then i am sure that a 2011 V6 Mustang can get 35 mpg along your same route. Lets not get too bias here Koz. Compare fuel economy on common grounds, not by neighbor's of a neighbor story.

EPA provides equal ground to compare vehicles fuel economy. The new EPA method is quite close to the average driver. So, your Lexus gets 25 mpg on PREMIUM gas on the highway. The 2011 V6 Mustang gets 31 mpg on REGULAR gas on the highway. 300 horses with the highway economy of a 4-cylinder on REGULAR gas. THAT IS A BIG ACHIEVEMENT in my opinion! So, yeah, Ford is true in their advertisement...and your Lexus IS is not even close. And yes, the new Mustang V6 will save money on gas by a significant amount over your V6.

Yeah, btw, the new 2011 Mustang GT will spank your IS butt all day long...why talk about the old GT, when you can talk about the new one?? The V6 may even give you a run for the money too!

Check out the gear ratios of the non-track pack Mustang V6. It is far less aggressive than your pedestrian V6 sedans. The AT is tuned to upshift all the time in order to achieve those numbers, because you'll notice that the 6MT version is rated quite a bit lower. And then Ford sent all the V6 testers track pack equipped.

They also sandbagged the Fusion Hybrid numbers for the EPA rating. Consumer Reports shows that on identical loops, at identical days and times, the hybrid fusion, camry, and altima get within a mpg or two. So, IMO, the EPA test is flawed because the manufacturers are figuring out how to cheat it. The "32mpg" equinox is a prime example of this. Consumer Reports shows that it is outperformed by a slew of CUVs that are rated far lower in the EPA test. True-delta and other fuel economy sites bear this out as well.

I liken it to taking a test in school. You have 2 students. One student has gotten the questions to the test and memorizes those and does great on the exam. The second student studies all the material from class and doesn't get quite as good of a grade on the test. Now, throw a question that wasn't on the test at each student. The previous scores are more repeatable for the student that prepared for all questions, not just the ones that are on the test. Basically, on that exact EPA loop, the results are repeatable. When you don't drive that loop exactly, physics take over.

 

[Thai]

If I had money to piss away and time to spend with endless visits to the dealer for repairs, I would have bought a Land Rover. If I had a lobotomy, the Jeep. Reviews are nice, look what CR did to fix the GX, but they never tell the whole story. Reviews are good to wet your appetite, talk to owners when you want a real review.

But, remember, CS passed the 4runner...so, if CS was truly trying to screw Toyota, CS would have failed the 4runner too. They did not.

Check out the gear ratios of the non-track pack Mustang V6. It is far less aggressive than your pedestrian V6 sedans. The AT is tuned to upshift all the time in order to achieve those numbers, because you'll notice that the 6MT version is rated quite a bit lower. And then Ford sent all the V6 testers track pack equipped.

They also sandbagged the Fusion Hybrid numbers for the EPA rating. Consumer Reports shows that on identical loops, at identical days and times, the hybrid fusion, camry, and altima get within a mpg or two. So, IMO, the EPA test is flawed because the manufacturers are figuring out how to cheat it. The "32mpg" equinox is a prime example of this. Consumer Reports shows that it is outperformed by a slew of CUVs that are rated far lower in the EPA test. True-delta and other fuel economy sites bear this out as well.

Does it really matter which gearing the Mustang has? The point of the Ford advertisement is that a Ford V6 with 300 hp has 31 mpg...the first of its kind. Yeah, sure, it has a TRACK package with more aggressive gearing, but that is optional equipment. I would bet that most customers would NOT get the Track package...so, the EPA ratings would apply to MOST customers. This is where Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6 engine cannot match. And of course, if Ford had a choice, then they would send their best vehicle for performance testing...wouldn't you? That has nothing to do with EPA.

EPA has always been somewhat inaccurate with hybrids. Ok, so the Fusion gets the same mileage as Camry Hybrid in real world driving. Ford just designs their hybrid battery to be able to run at higher speed than Camry Hybrid...a few theorized that this may negatively affect the longevity of the battery. This has resulted in the high EPA numbers. Can people achieve this? Of course...but it does take some effort to get above 40 mpg. In normal driving, Fusion Hybrid is similar to Camry Hybrid. The bigger question is...why is Toyota not doing the same? Maybe you guys should slap Toyota's head for failing where Ford has done better. Just look at the Lexus HS250...that thing came out recently...yet, Toyota/Lexus still can't do what Ford has done. Why blame Ford on "cheating" when Toyota is the one that is falling behind the times?! Yes, the Ford Fusion Hybrid is the same as Toyota Camry hybrid in "normal" driving, but one can achieve the EPA numbers with effort with the Ford...can you say the same about the Camry Hybrid driver? Probably not...because Toyota has limited the speed at which the battery can drive the car. Will this hurt Ford down the road in terms of battery longevity? Probably not since Ford offers the same hybrid warranty as Toyota...and US drivers rarely keep a car past 100k miles. I call Ford a freaking genius for doing it!

Now, please remember, i have a Toyota hybrid and have owned many Toyotas...but i am not blind to other folks achievements.

BTW, how is it CHEATING if Ford played within the EPA rules?? Maybe it is Toyota that is just behind the times!

 

[Koz]

Then i am sure that a 2011 V6 Mustang can get 35 mpg along your same route. Lets not get too bias here Koz. Compare fuel economy on common grounds, not by neighbor's of a neighbor story.

EPA provides equal ground to compare vehicles fuel economy. The new EPA method is quite close to the average driver. So, your Lexus gets 25 mpg on PREMIUM gas on the highway. The 2011 V6 Mustang gets 31 mpg on REGULAR gas on the highway. 300 horses with the highway economy of a 4-cylinder on REGULAR gas. THAT IS A BIG ACHIEVEMENT in my opinion! So, yeah, Ford is true in their advertisement...and your Lexus IS is not even close. And yes, the new Mustang V6 will save money on gas by a significant amount over your V6.

Yeah, btw, the new 2011 Mustang GT will spank your IS butt all day long...why talk about the old GT, when you can talk about the new one?? The V6 may even give you a run for the money too!

You are absolutely correct about the EPA ratings being common ground. As far as the IS rating of 25, I was surprised it was so low. I get great mileage all the time and when I'm being nice on the highway I always get more 25 mpg. I usually get the worst mileage a car can produce. My point was it is not a magical feat to get 30 mpg from a modern (High hp) V6. Even the IS will be getting a nice increase in mpg for the next model year.

You are right again about the 2011 Mustang spanking me but as you say, “Lets not get too bias here”. You are taking about over 100hp more. Lets compare it to SAME hp Lexus (ISF) or even the less hp M3. I will admit that Ford really did their homework with the 2011 Mustang and made sure they beat the other domestics in that class.

Koz

 

[Koz]

The bottom line, for C&D or MT, is that the 335i still performs best in class. What you need to do Koz (in order to lower your anxiety) is to subscribe ONLY to Consumer Reports and JD Powers...otherwise, you will be disappointed by these PERFORMANCE-oriented magazines.

BTW, i don't think that i see much BMW advertisements in these mags anyways...certainly not anymore than lexus or Mercedes. In fact, MT in a recent review awarded the M3 over the Caddy CTS-V coupe...despite GM advertisements everywhere! How do you guys explain that? How about the Avalon beating Buicks in 2005?

For example, my Sienna lost to the Honda Ody in the last C&D comparo...do you see me cry about it?? No, i understand why the Ody got the nod...it is a more fun to drive vehicle with better steering feel. Do i care about these things in a minivan? Nope. So, i am OK with the comparo.

There is no anxiety, I don't subscribe to ANY rag mags. I could care less about someone's personal opinion about any vehicle. I found that time and my personal experiences are the ONLY telling criteria that forms my opinion. That's why I do think the M3 was and is a GREAT car. I don't need the opinion of a rag mag for me to see that.

Koz

 

[Thai]

Remind me...how much does the 2011 Mustang cost? How much does the ISF or M3 cost??? Ford would thank you for putting the Stang in such company!!

 

[Thai]

You are absolutely correct about the EPA ratings being common ground. As far as the IS rating of 25, I was surprised it was so low. I get great mileage all the time and when I'm being nice on the highway I always get more 25 mpg. I usually get the worst mileage a car can produce. My point was it is not a magical feat to get 30 mpg from a modern (High hp) V6. Even the IS will be getting a nice increase in mpg for the next model year.

You are right again about the 2011 Mustang spanking me but as you say, “Lets not get too bias here”. You are taking about over 100hp more. Lets compare it to SAME hp Lexus (ISF) or even the less hp M3. I will admit that Ford really did their homework with the 2011 Mustang and made sure they beat the other domestics in that class.

Koz

It is a feat to do it because if YOU drove the Mustang, you would get better than EPA too. Simply, ford new v6 powertrain is efficient...and for those who don't need 31 mpg, they can opt for track pkg. Simple, something for everyone.

 

[Koz]

Hmmm, have you guys seen this: How To Deal With Unintended Acceleration - Tech Dept. - Auto Reviews - Car and Driver

So, how is C&D helping the domestics by defending Toyota in this article?? You guys are confusing me now!:violin:

Oh how about this GM whore (aka Motor Trend) article: The Unintended Acceleration Test - Motor Trend

Wow, MT is trying some sort of advance reverse psychology here!!

Thai,

Are you saying that Toyota has not been singled out and thrown under the bus, by almost all the media and politicians? It's because in time the data showed that most of these problems were not what they were made out to be, yes they're NOW some that are turning around and making positive statements. What I can tell you is Toyota will bounce back because they still make the most reliable cars on the market.

Koz