Timely review, 4Runner Trail v. Jeep GC
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Thai
Elite Member
You're missing the point Jed (again!). Yeah, most do OK, even the Yugo owners. Risk of problems is what reliability (and durability) is all about. Same with buying a Chrysler or a Land Rover product. There is higher risk of having a failure...and that to me, is a BIGGIE. Taking my car into the dealer for warranty service is time away from my family or my work...and time is money, right? Now, if Chrysler can GIVE me money for my time at the dealer, then yeah, i would buy any Chrysler product!
And the ONLY Chrysler product that is worth a damn in my book is the Wrangler.
Thai
Elite Member
How is this any different than a Toyota or a Nissan dealer? Again, you need to talk to the Taco owners whose rear diff failed. Not pretty how Toyota treated them! Or how about the FJ owners whose fender bulges? Not pretty how Toyota used every reason under the sun (including modification or off-roading) to deny repair.
I think you're the one who is missing the point (again!). The risk may be higher, but the fact is that the risk is low in the first place. So who cares if the risk is higher when the odds are so small in the first place.
Using your logic, anyone who buys a Land Rover will have to spend all kinds of time at his/her local dealership getting repairs done. But in reality, the average Land Rover spends little, if any time at the dealership for repairs. It just seem like the opposite is true, mostly because of all the negative propaganda that Land Rover gets. Sure, eventually any vehicle will most likely need a repair, but it's not like a typical Jeep owner or Land Rover owner will live at the dealership.
Again, I'll refer to you to the numbers if you don't agree. Numbers don't lie, Thai. My neighbor's three years of trouble-free service from his Land Rover isn't an anomaly...just figure his experience into the statistics of it all. Guys like you seem to prefer the drama when it comes to reliability, whereas I'm more focused on reality and the actual numbers.
Thai
Elite Member
Well, my brother had a Disco III and he spent a lot of time at the dealers for warranty repairs. My brother has a Chrysler T&C...again, more time at the dealer than me.
What numbers or stats are you looking at? From my brother's experiences, they have an opposite view of you. From my viewpoint, the stats don't lie...you're right...and there is more risk of owning a lower-rated vehicle. And why are we focusing only on 3 years of ownership??
It's quite simple: Most Jeeps don't break down. Most Land Rovers don't break down. I'd even go as far to say that every new mass produced vehicle available today is inherently reliable. Knowing that this is true, the ONLY way most people like to gauge the reliability of one vehicle is against the others.
The way you talk, Koz, people would think that a Jeep will break down on the way home from the dealership and every day after. But we all know that's not true. Most of them are perfectly reliable for years after the initial purchase.
Thai,
I had to pick some number of years for ownership....otherwise it would be silly to argue that any vehicle would run trouble-free forever.
But still, for every guy like your brother, there are probably 10 guys who had good experiences with the Disco. And I agree that there's a lower risk with a vehicle that is known for good reliability....but my point is that too many people blow this out of proportion (like Koz!) by making it seem like a vehicle that has a lower reliability rating will automatically be a huge POS. That's simply not true. Plenty of people do just fine with vehicles that fall on the bottom of the reliability scale. And that's because vehicles today are very reliable and well made overall....
Not that I'm trying to "prove" anything, but just to give you a different perspective on this who debate, I'll tell you what I heard talking to a female co-worker of mine.
She's in her 3rd year of ownership of a new Lexus RX350. The main reason she purchased the vehicle was because of the high reliability rating. Well, after talking to her today, the vehicle has been anything but reliable for her. She was upset today because her driver's side carpet was soaked with water after sitting outside all weekend during the heavy rains in New York. I told her that it might be her sunroof drain tubes causing her problem.
Then she told me how she had a problem a few months ago where she started the engine and it idled really rough and all kind of dashboard lights were lit up. She couldn't drive it like that, so she had it towed to the dealership where they installed a new ECU.
Then she told me how her rear hatch mechanism crapped out on her. That one was under warranty.
And then finally she told me that her radio has a mind of it's own and turns on and off by itself. Needless to say, she's not a happy Lexus owner.
So does that mean Lexus is crap? No, of course not. She's one person who had some bad experiences. For everyone like her, there are probably 20 people with the same car that had no issues!
She's in her 3rd year of ownership of a new Lexus RX350. The main reason she purchased the vehicle was because of the high reliability rating. Well, after talking to her today, the vehicle has been anything but reliable for her. She was upset today because her driver's side carpet was soaked with water after sitting outside all weekend during the heavy rains in New York. I told her that it might be her sunroof drain tubes causing her problem.
Then she told me how she had a problem a few months ago where she started the engine and it idled really rough and all kind of dashboard lights were lit up. She couldn't drive it like that, so she had it towed to the dealership where they installed a new ECU.
Then she told me how her rear hatch mechanism crapped out on her. That one was under warranty.
And then finally she told me that her radio has a mind of it's own and turns on and off by itself. Needless to say, she's not a happy Lexus owner.
So does that mean Lexus is crap? No, of course not. She's one person who had some bad experiences. For everyone like her, there are probably 20 people with the same car that had no issues!
BrianLSU
New member
I didn't even have to look that hard;
Best and Worst Used Cars - Highest and Lowest Rated Trucks and SUVs - Car Buying Tips (Dated 06')
Consumer Reports Article - MSN Autos (07' Model Year)
from ConsumerReports.org on Yahoo! Autos (Dated 09')
Consistently in the best category, 4Runner
Consistently in the worst category, Grand Cherokee, Land Rover
Not rocket science....
And that whole thing about not being a big deal to go in for warranty service, do this for me.
Go out to your daily driver, rip off something important, call the dealership to learn it will take 7-10 days to get the part in, start calling friends and family for rides.
My point is not to bash Jeep, more to do with giving warning. My Rubi was awesome offroad, rock crawling in 4low and locked, I felt unstoppable. Looking back at all the headaches though, it wasn't worth it. I just can't imagine going from a vehicle that is so reliable that you're considered unlucky if it doesn't to one that you're considered lucky if it does.
Thai,
That's a bit disconcerting that Toyota did that. So do they do remove warranty's for lifts too? Well, the reason I bought this thing was so I wouldn't have to worry about warranty's, we'll see. Ask me in 10 years..
Best and Worst Used Cars - Highest and Lowest Rated Trucks and SUVs - Car Buying Tips (Dated 06')
Consumer Reports Article - MSN Autos (07' Model Year)
from ConsumerReports.org on Yahoo! Autos (Dated 09')
Consistently in the best category, 4Runner
Consistently in the worst category, Grand Cherokee, Land Rover
Not rocket science....
And that whole thing about not being a big deal to go in for warranty service, do this for me.
Go out to your daily driver, rip off something important, call the dealership to learn it will take 7-10 days to get the part in, start calling friends and family for rides.
My point is not to bash Jeep, more to do with giving warning. My Rubi was awesome offroad, rock crawling in 4low and locked, I felt unstoppable. Looking back at all the headaches though, it wasn't worth it. I just can't imagine going from a vehicle that is so reliable that you're considered unlucky if it doesn't to one that you're considered lucky if it does.
Thai,
That's a bit disconcerting that Toyota did that. So do they do remove warranty's for lifts too? Well, the reason I bought this thing was so I wouldn't have to worry about warranty's, we'll see. Ask me in 10 years..
Look at it this way:
I've owned my 4Runner since I purchased it new in 2004. To date, the only thing that has gone wrong with it are the brake calipers seizing (which is avery common problem). So that's just one problem in nearly seven years. Whether or not anyone believes that is typical, follow along....
Now lets assume that a Jeep Grand Cherokee will be 1/2 as reliable as my 4Runner (and that's not a far out assumption if you look at the odds). That means I should expect to have two problems in seven years. No big deal.
Or even if the Jeep is four times less reliable than my 4Runner. That's still only four problems to deal with in seven years.
So when you step back and look at the big picture, the ratings don't amount to much. Again, the reliability debate is blown way out of proportion by a few guys on this forum. It's like me saying that I have a 0.4% chance of dying of lung cancer and a 0.8% of dying from a heart attack. The heart attack is obviously twice as likely to kill me, but the odds of both are insignificant and not worth worrying about.
I've owned my 4Runner since I purchased it new in 2004. To date, the only thing that has gone wrong with it are the brake calipers seizing (which is avery common problem). So that's just one problem in nearly seven years. Whether or not anyone believes that is typical, follow along....
Now lets assume that a Jeep Grand Cherokee will be 1/2 as reliable as my 4Runner (and that's not a far out assumption if you look at the odds). That means I should expect to have two problems in seven years. No big deal.
Or even if the Jeep is four times less reliable than my 4Runner. That's still only four problems to deal with in seven years.
So when you step back and look at the big picture, the ratings don't amount to much. Again, the reliability debate is blown way out of proportion by a few guys on this forum. It's like me saying that I have a 0.4% chance of dying of lung cancer and a 0.8% of dying from a heart attack. The heart attack is obviously twice as likely to kill me, but the odds of both are insignificant and not worth worrying about.
BrianLSU
New member
You are absolutely right. At the end of the day, these numbers are just that, numbers, odds. Hidden in there is also the chance you may not have 1 problem with the Jeep also, outperforming by the numbers the 4Runner.
So anyone looking at the new GC's, I truly hope it's everything you want it to be, truly. They do look good, I can't wait to see one with a tiny lift and tires. I bet it would look awesome.
So anyone looking at the new GC's, I truly hope it's everything you want it to be, truly. They do look good, I can't wait to see one with a tiny lift and tires. I bet it would look awesome.
I certainly agree that the JGC and all Land Rovers have had serious reliability issues. I'm hoping that the 2011 JGC is much better, but time will tell, and I'm not brave enough to buy the first year.
While my 4Runner has been pretty reliable, it hasn't been perfect. I'm very disappointed at the amount of rust on my frame cross-member.
Thai
Elite Member
READ what the stats mean in these telling graphs:
1st picture:
Land Rover had 438 problems per 100 vehicles over 3 years
Toyota & Honda had less than 200 problems per 100 vehicles over 3 years
2nd picture:
Toyota 104 problems / 100 vehicles in the first 3 months of ownership i believe
Jeep 167 problems / 100 vehicles
Those are significant differences in my book!
1st picture:
Land Rover had 438 problems per 100 vehicles over 3 years
Toyota & Honda had less than 200 problems per 100 vehicles over 3 years
2nd picture:
Toyota 104 problems / 100 vehicles in the first 3 months of ownership i believe
Jeep 167 problems / 100 vehicles
Those are significant differences in my book!
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Thai,
You're just helping me prove my point. Those numbers may seem significant when you graph them out next to other vehicles, but in the real world it is just not that significant.
Toyota 104 problems / 100 vehicles in the first 3 months of ownership i believe
Jeep 167 problems / 100 vehicles
So lets look at those numbers. Basically, that means that if you take a random sample of Toyota vehicles, on average, they will have one problem during the first three months of ownership. Actually a little more than than one problem. And if you were to do the same for Jeep, they will have 1.67 problems during the first three months of ownership. So in this example, Jeep isn't even twice as bad as Toyota.
Like I said, if a Grand Cherokee owner has to bring his vehicle in for repairs four times in seven years, versus one time in seven years for a 4Runner owner, what's the big deal? It's still only four times in seven years! Sure, it's four times worse for the Grand Cherokee, but there that's only averaging approximately one repair nearly every two years! Not a big deal when you look at the big picture!
I don't know why this is so difficult to understand... I guess you can say it is statistically significant, but insignificant in the real world.
You're just helping me prove my point. Those numbers may seem significant when you graph them out next to other vehicles, but in the real world it is just not that significant.
Toyota 104 problems / 100 vehicles in the first 3 months of ownership i believe
Jeep 167 problems / 100 vehicles
So lets look at those numbers. Basically, that means that if you take a random sample of Toyota vehicles, on average, they will have one problem during the first three months of ownership. Actually a little more than than one problem. And if you were to do the same for Jeep, they will have 1.67 problems during the first three months of ownership. So in this example, Jeep isn't even twice as bad as Toyota.
Like I said, if a Grand Cherokee owner has to bring his vehicle in for repairs four times in seven years, versus one time in seven years for a 4Runner owner, what's the big deal? It's still only four times in seven years! Sure, it's four times worse for the Grand Cherokee, but there that's only averaging approximately one repair nearly every two years! Not a big deal when you look at the big picture!
I don't know why this is so difficult to understand... I guess you can say it is statistically significant, but insignificant in the real world.
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Thai
Elite Member
Actually, it is signficant in such a short time period...and then you translate this out over THREE YEARS and you see a big difference! Remember, this is averages...so, there are people with zero problems and there are those who has problems. In the real word, a person with LR will experience at least twice the amount of issues as a Toyota owner.
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First of all, if you know anything about statistics, then you know that you can't extrapolate 3 months of data over three years. It just doesn't work that way. Initial quality is not synonymous with long-term quality.
But YES!-- those are averages. Exactly! So on average, I'd have a 100% chance of having 1.04 problems in a Toyota and a 1.67 problems in the Jeep during the first three months of ownership. Again, that's on average. The majority of people (with both vehicles) would have no problems whatsoever!
Yes! Exactly! So if I’ve had one problem with my 4Runner in the seven years I’ve owned it, then if my luck stays the same (remember—there is always an element of luck when we’re talking about odds), I can expect two problems in seven years with a Land Rover! That’s not significant in my book…
