Towing experiences with your 5th Generation

[teotwaki]

Fixed it for ya'

Nope. It's the other way around. When Toyota owners get angry and defensive about their decision to buy a 4Runner they castigate other owners for bringing up opposing points which are valid experiences. They also resort to name calling such as "fanboy".

They don't have to agree with any of those critiques; everyone is entitled to their opinion. But when they deride others who counter their criticisms with facts about their real life experience with the 4runner, it does indicate a myopic mindset.

 

[teotwaki]

Just to exercise caution I'm not going to shower and all my pissing and deuce dropping will be done in the woods. Gotta keep that trailer weight down!

Just blame the 4Runner. It's all the rage, lol.

 

[Dalko43]

Fixed it for ya'

Nope. It's the other way around. When Toyota owners get angry and defensive about their decision to buy a 4Runner they castigate other owners for bringing up opposing points which are valid experiences. They also resort to name calling such as "fanboy".

They don't have to agree with any of those critiques; everyone is entitled to their opinion. But when they deride others who counter their criticisms with facts about their real life experience with the 4runner, it does indicate a myopic mindset.

You didn't do a good job with that...normally people will change and highlight a few key words instead of attempting to rewrite half of the post.

Also, I don't know how i can be angry and defensive about buying a 4runner all at once...seems contradictory, no?

 

[Jetboy]

I don't think you applied the correct filters for your search there. It looks like you were browing mpg results for both the diesel and gasoline variants of the Colorado.

I used the fuelly search for the diesel Colorado (did not specify body style or submod) and it showed an average combined of 23-24mpg, which is substantially better than the combined mpg that my 4runner gets:
Chevrolet Colorado MPG - Actual MPG from 179 Chevrolet Colorado owners

Owners frequently hit or exceed 30 mpg with those engines on the highway. Neither 3.5l v6 or the older 4.0l v6 come anywhere close to that.

The diesel also has 185hp and takes over 9 seconds to get to 60mph unloaded. It's probably a fine motor - but it's too small for a 4runner in our market.

And Diesel today is $2.98 average in the USA. Gasoline is 2.56. Cost/mile getting 23mpg on diesel is similar to 19.75mpg with gasoline.

So you pay more to get an engine with 40% less power that costs the same to drive? Makes very little sense to me. But I like to save money and have more power.

 

[teotwaki]

, I don't know how i can be angry and defensive about buying a 4runner all at once...seems contradictory, no?

You are angry that you didn't research more carefully before you purchased the 4R and so very defensive because you want to blame Toyota rather than admit you made a mistake.

 

[WVhillbilly]

The diesel also has 185hp and takes over 9 seconds to get to 60mph unloaded. It's probably a fine motor - but it's too small for a 4runner in our market.

And Diesel today is $2.98 average in the USA. Gasoline is 2.56. Cost/mile getting 23mpg on diesel is similar to 19.75mpg with gasoline.

185 hp wouldn't be an issue. How much torque does it make?
Probably quite a bit more than a 4.0L gas.
And a diesel in a 4Runner would probably be getting close to 30mpg.
Where mine with a gas engine is getting just over 17.

I don't know how that little Colorado would only get 23 mpg unless you were flogging it.
My Titan XD would get close to 20, it weighs a lot more than a Colorado, and has a 5.0L.

 

[Jetboy]

185 hp wouldn't be an issue. How much torque does it make?
Probably quite a bit more than a 4.0L gas.
And a diesel in a 4Runner would probably be getting close to 30mpg.
Where mine with a gas engine is getting just over 17.

I don't know how that little Colorado would only get 23 mpg unless you were flogging it.
My Titan XD would get close to 20, it weighs a lot more than a Colorado, and has a 5.0L.

I can make 1000 ft lbs of torque with my bare hands. I can't make 1hp. Power matters, torque doesn't have any meaning without an RPM component and when you have that you're really talking about power. I really wish torque would quit being published because it's basically a meaningless number for consumers (it does matter for transmission manufacturers). Power at 2500 rpms is a LOT more informative, but not published. And I suspect that's really what we're talking about. The little diesel makes more peak torque, but that is a pretty meaningless number. What we care about is power at lower RPMs. The GM 2.8TD makes about 140hp at 2,000 rpms (peak torque rpm). The 1GR doesn't make 140hp until about 2800 rpms. In terms of ability to do work - the 1GR requires 2800rpms to equal the output of the GM at 2000rpms.

The 4runner will easily out-pull the diesel Colorado in an absolute comparison. It will pull a heavier trailer up a steeper hill. It has a much higher ability to do work. There's no question that a 1GR with the pedal down will run away from a Colorado diesel with the pedal down with any trailer regardless of weight.

The more important question is whether it's more comfortable and/or more fuel efficient to drive at 2800rpms in a 4runner vs 2000rpms in a small diesel. The little diesel might very well win that comparison. I haven't driven one so I can't compare them.

 

[WVhillbilly]

I have no interest in the Colorado.
Primarily because it's a GM product and I won't own one.

I would certainly buy a Toyota truck with a diesel.
I've been hoping for a diesel Tundra for years.

 

[teotwaki]

A) I do see a lot of people towing trailers now for overlanding purposes. In fact, you yourself tow a trailer and even seem to acknowledge that it has become a growing trend. Moroever a lot of non-overlanders still use their 4runner for towing utility and boat trailers...people tend to use their 4runners.

You just noticed that I tow a trailer and haul a lot of gear "overland"? Notice that I was doing it well before you for more total years? Why is your experience the only valid one? People do tend to use their 4Runners but they aren't posting in multiple threads how Toyota made such a bad vehicle. You are only trying to avoid admitting you bought the wrong vehicle for the loads you want to haul.

B) You load up your 4runner with armor, winch, bumpers, extra gear, and you're still putting your engine to work in a similar way that towing does. The 4runner's v6 is just not well-suited to high work load situations; it will get the job done, but there are other platforms that will get the job done even better (refer to my donkey analogy).

I don't have a winch but I do load up the vehicle as well as tow a trailer up very steep and rough roads at altitude but you and the other guy want to convince everyone only your "work load" scenarios are valid.

Well no one was arguing that an engine's efficiency can go up when under load...I'm not sure why you came up with that strawman argument.

You are the king of the strawman's argument, even to the point of ignoring what I quoted you as saying -

You start throwing more weight on the 4runner, whether it be for mods or for hauling more weight, the engine's efficiency plummets and the onroad manners are less than stellar.

Load up your beloved Colorado with the same weight and it's efficiency and stability will plummet too. Unfortunately that reality would scatter your multiple strawman ploys to the winds.

There are other platforms that can tow and haul gear without seeing as much of a hit in efficiency (the diesel Colorado would be the most direct comparison to the 4runner in that regard). Moreover, there are full-sized pickup trucks that get about the same, or better, fuel efficiency than the 4runner when loaded or unloaded (the ecoboost F-150 and the ecodiesel Ram 1500 are two examples).

Just admit you wish you had bought the Colorado instead of the "donkey" will you. All across the forum you are critical of the 4Rs build quality, critical of the MPGs, tout other brands as far better etc. etc.

This is quite laughable what you're doing here.
Comparing a GM Colorado to a 4runner is "apples to coconuts?" I get that one is a pickup and one is a SUV, but we're talking about platforms with similar footprints, similar engine types, and which are bought by similar customers.

Your arguments are silly because you want to take a pickup truck that weighs less, choose options for increased horsepower and use the results to "prove" your personal 4R is inferior.

Why don't you pick another company's similar SUV instead of pickup trucks? Because your argument won't work anymore.

The F-150, with the 3.5l v6 ecoboost or v8, tows far more than the 4runner. Moreover, the version of the ecoboost that will eventually be put into the Ranger will likely far outpace the 4runner, and Tacoma, when it comes to fuel efficiency and torque delivery.

I posted a link for the basic F150 and they show the towing limit at 5K pounds. You want to offer up any possible example to support your premise just so long as you can pick factory options that allow you to win your argument.

This is what I find so annoying about the cult that is Toyota ownership: if you mention even one critique of the vehicle or the company, you're labeled a Toyota hater by the fanboys. I love Toyota and I love my 4runner, otherwise I wouldn't have bought one. The 4runner is reliable and rock solid in all regards, even the engine, despite its other faults.

LOL, you don't offer one critique, you find fault with multiple features of the 4Runner as well as do it in multiple threads. Let’s not forget you were the first to call other members silly names.

The problem is Toyota is way too conservative and they're relying on engine/transmission setup's that have been around, in one form or another, since 2002. I get about 19-20 mpg in realistic highway driving with my mostly stock 4runner. F-150's can get 1-2 mpg better than that, despite their bigger size. Similar-sized Colorado's can get 10 mpg better.

Taking the ideal gas mileage of an unloaded pickup truck is not a true comparison. Why aren't you picking another body on frame SUV to support your arguments?

Toyota's gasoline engines may get the job done, but they are not keeping up with the competition when it comes to efficiency or torque delivery, both of which have become increasingly important to new 4x4 owners.

I had a 4th Gen for 13 years and immediately bought a new 5th gen. I don't want a tiny high RPM V6 with no track record. The majority of “new 4x4 owners” rarely venture off of graded dirt roads or snow on pavement. They probably need to get good gas mileage while cruising donut shops or high school parking lots.

 

[teotwaki]

I ---snip----

The more important question is whether it's more comfortable and/or more fuel efficient to drive at 2800rpms in a 4runner vs 2000rpms in a small diesel. The little diesel might very well win that comparison. I haven't driven one so I can't compare them.

You have a huge point in that many arguments are leveled against the 4Runner even though said arguments are based on reading stats off of internet searches and not actually owning or driving some other "better" platform. If I were obsessed with only gas mileage I would not have bought my second 4Runner. What I wanted was reliability similar to the 239,000 trouble free miles of my 4th Gen. Instead of whining about the gas mileage I just fill up some extra Scepter cans and get out into the backcountry because I can trust my 4Runner to get me in and out without mechanical drama.

 

[KP Texan]

I don't think you applied the correct filters for your search there. It looks like you were browing mpg results for both the diesel and gasoline variants of the Colorado.

I used the fuelly search for the diesel Colorado (did not specify body style or submod) and it showed an average combined of 23-24mpg, which is substantially better than the combined mpg that my 4runner gets:
Chevrolet Colorado MPG - Actual MPG from 179 Chevrolet Colorado owners

Owners frequently hit or exceed 30 mpg with those engines on the highway. Neither 3.5l v6 or the older 4.0l v6 come anywhere close to that.

Yep, it looks like I misunderstood what you were saying. You mentioned base Colorado which I took to mean gas, but I see you can get an LT 4x4 with the Diesel at about $40K msrp.

It's true that the Colorado Diesel does better fuel mileage wise, but strictly looking at fuel costs with current fuel prices in my area, I would save about $21/month assuming 1000 mi/month. Then, back out the costs related to urea, fuel filters, etc. and the gap narrows more.

 

[KP Texan]

I can make 1000 ft lbs of torque with my bare hands. I can't make 1hp. Power matters, torque doesn't have any meaning without an RPM component and when you have that you're really talking about power. I really wish torque would quit being published because it's basically a meaningless number for consumers (it does matter for transmission manufacturers). Power at 2500 rpms is a LOT more informative, but not published. And I suspect that's really what we're talking about. The little diesel makes more peak torque, but that is a pretty meaningless number. What we care about is power at lower RPMs. The GM 2.8TD makes about 140hp at 2,000 rpms (peak torque rpm). The 1GR doesn't make 140hp until about 2800 rpms. In terms of ability to do work - the 1GR requires 2800rpms to equal the output of the GM at 2000rpms.

The 4runner will easily out-pull the diesel Colorado in an absolute comparison. It will pull a heavier trailer up a steeper hill. It has a much higher ability to do work. There's no question that a 1GR with the pedal down will run away from a Colorado diesel with the pedal down with any trailer regardless of weight.

The more important question is whether it's more comfortable and/or more fuel efficient to drive at 2800rpms in a 4runner vs 2000rpms in a small diesel. The little diesel might very well win that comparison. I haven't driven one so I can't compare them.

Thank you for explaining this! I often see people throwing around the term torque and it seems like they don’t really understand the true relationship between torque, rpm, and horsepower.

 

[WallyT4R]

It would be cool if the 4.0 made it's peak at 3000 rpm or lower instead of right above 4000. IMO. Man this thing hits 4000 rpm and it's on!

 

[MadeInMaine]

When the military moved me from MS to AZ, I towed my '02 Honda Accord on a full UHaul trailer (not the dragging dolley).

The 4runner was awesome. Im pretty sure it was over the suggested weight, but it was a champ!

 

[teotwaki]

If one were to perform a search of the forum it can be seen that many 4R owners tow very heavy loads and have shared their experiences, both good and bad. What stands out is people that have realistic expectations and are not shocked that gas mileage goes down or that they cannot drive 80 mph as if they had a V8 F-150 pickup truck.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/231040-anyone-towing-around-5-000lbs-max-capacity.html

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/60658-heaviest-load-towed-4runner.html

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/208572-heavy-load-equals-single-digit-mpg.html <--- note that this guy belatedly realized he was pulling 6300 pounds so the title of the thread is a bit sensationalist.

Also this:

"Automotive manufacturers agreed in 2008 to standardize tow ratings as specified in the SAE's Surface Vehicle Recommended Practice J2807 to take effect by 2013. An article dated December 21, 2009 Tow Ratings Finally Pass the Sniff Test - The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) - Automobile Magazine in Automobilemag.com gives a good overview of the new standards. Prior to this, manufacturers pretty much advertised whatever tow ratings they wanted, and there was no "apples to apples" comparison between brands or models.

The reason I am posting this information now, is that beginning with the 2010 models, Toyota is using the new SAE tow ratings standards which includes the 2010 5th Gen 4Runner. If you are trying to compare tow ratings between Toyota and other manufacturers, you will have to do the research yourself to see whether the other companies are using the SAE standards or their own numbers since they have until 2013 to comply.

Although the new standards will give a more realistic tow rating and allow this "apples to apples" comparison, it does not speak to the durability and longevity of chassis/power trains/etc. However, for Toyota customers you should understand that Toyota builds in a performance buffer or margin. For example, if Toyota is claiming a 5,000 lbs tow rating, the vehicle is actually engineered and designed for a higher number (5,500 - 6,000 lbs. or whatever---a number for legal reasons Toyota may not want us to know). The vehicle is designed for this higher tow rating, and engineered so that it will tow "X" number of days per year, "X" number of miles per year and perform and last through the warranty period of the vehicle. Then the lawyers figure out the statistical probability of performance and failure for the warrantied life of the vehicle to come up with the final tow rating. So for Toyota it's a two step process were they now meet the SAE standards, but also make sure that the advertised tow rating is well within what the maximum capability of the vehicles actually is. Note: Do not exceed the recommended tow rating of your vehicle, and make sure you are towing smartly and safely, taking all variables into account when you tow. This should just give you some peace of mind that your Toyota was designed for both capability and longevity."

From TitanPat last year

 

[WVhillbilly]

Thank you for explaining this! I often see people throwing around the term torque and it seems like they don’t really understand the true relationship between torque, rpm, and horsepower.

My Tundra and Titan XD both had the same hp. (310)
But the Titan has 555 ft lbs of torque.

Guess which one towed better.

The Tundra would be at 4500 rpm on hills, screaming along, mileage into the singe digits. This was a 65-70 mph on the interstate.
This is with a single axle motorcycle trailer.
The Titan? You hardly knew it was back there.

Set cruise at 75, get 13-15 mg in the hills and just roll along.
Heavier loads. No issue, those trucks love to tow.

 

[teotwaki]

My Tundra and Titan XD both had the same hp. (310)
But the Titan has 555 ft lbs of torque.

Guess which one towed better.

The Tundra would be at 4500 rpm on hills, screaming along, mileage into the singe digits. This was a 65-70 mph on the interstate.
This is with a single axle motorcycle trailer.
The Titan? You hardly knew it was back there.

Set cruise at 75, get 13-15 mg in the hills and just roll along.
Heavier loads. No issue, those trucks love to tow.

Wuuuutt? :wow: Only 13 MPG? I'm shocked! ...... j/k :cheers:

It's good to read real world numbers. Internet factoids don't always tell us the whole story.

 

[WVhillbilly]

13 towing a trailer with 2 bikes in it, through hilly WV interstate.
I wasn't mad about it, the Tundra got 9 in the same section of road and was either shifting or the RPMs were 4k or more.

When the road leveled out I could get over 15 with the Titan, and it never felt stressed at all.
Where with the Tundra you always knew the trailer was back there. And flat road mileage was never an high as 13.
It's all about having the right tool for the job.
My daughter's Corolla could probably tow that trailer too, but it certainly wouldn't like it.

 

[2flyfishin]

For the purpose of towing, torque is extremely important. I have towed with 460’s,454’s, 440’s’s, Triton v10’s, Cummings, and power strokes as well as lighter loads with the Ford 3.5 and the 5.4 and 5.0. In every instance torque was king. Every gas motor had more horsepower and every diesel had more torque. Every diesel easily handled the loads much better. The Ford v8’s towed a boat soooo much better than the 3.5 v6. One of the posters above talked about just needing to down shift and running at higher rpms getting more horsepower to pull up the hill. With the higher rpm’s you’re not just getting more horsepower, you’re getting into the rpm range where the engine has more torque which is what you’re actually using. He also was talking about torque and horsepower with his hands and didn’t quite get it. A much better explanation would be if you have a brand new pickle jar and the lid is stuck, you have to grip the jar and twist with a lot of rotating force”torque “ to break the lid loose. After it’s broke loose you spin the lid off quickly “horsepower “. Torque equals works, horsepower equals speed. Towing equals work which equals torque. Towing fast equals torque and horsepower.
PS my 4runner is my favorite vehicle I have ever owned and I’ve owned a lot of vehicles over the years, a tow vehicle it is not. For towing it’s a pig at best.

 

[KP Texan]

For the purpose of towing, torque is extremely important. I have towed with 460’s,454’s, 440’s’s, Triton v10’s, Cummings, and power strokes as well as lighter loads with the Ford 3.5 and the 5.4 and 5.0. In every instance torque was king. Every gas motor had more horsepower and every diesel had more torque. Every diesel easily handled the loads much better. The Ford v8’s towed a boat soooo much better than the 3.5 v6. One of the posters above talked about just needing to down shift and running at higher rpms getting more horsepower to pull up the hill. With the higher rpm’s you’re not just getting more horsepower, you’re getting into the rpm range where the engine has more torque which is what you’re actually using. He also was talking about torque and horsepower with his hands and didn’t quite get it. A much better explanation would be if you have a brand new pickle jar and the lid is stuck, you have to grip the jar and twist with a lot of rotating force”torque “ to break the lid loose. After it’s broke loose you spin the lid off quickly “horsepower “. Torque equals works, horsepower equals speed. Towing equals work which equals torque. Towing fast equals torque and horsepower.
PS my 4runner is my favorite vehicle I have ever owned and I’ve owned a lot of vehicles over the years, a tow vehicle it is not. For towing it’s a pig at best.

You’re probably referencing Jetboy’s post above but, I’ll say it again, he was pretty much spot on. Without getting too deep in the weeds on this stuff, you’re looking for horsepower which is the rate of work (not just work). The question is simply what the horsepower is at a given RPM. Low rpm torque equates to low rpm horsepower, which does make for advantages in comfortable towing. Whichever way you slice it, torque x rpm / 5252 will always equal horsepower.