Toyota owners seem to be a fickle group

[RichinRidgewood]

The Crown Vic was discontinued for several very logical reasons - first and foremost because it was a poor handling boat that no longer met any of the safety requirements.

Ford saw the handwriting on the wall when police departments started looking at SUVs and more fuel efficient vehicles like Chargers.

The majority of taxis were out of service cop cars, so they weren't a big business for Ford fleet sales and when cities like NY started looking at efficiency, that market died too.

I was a bit sad when they went away, but the reasons for the demise was legitimate.

If they didn’t change it then they would not have had upgrade to the new requirements.

Taxi drivers bought Crown Vics new. I have a neighbor who owns 2 medallions and have 2 Crown Vics he bought new. We had this conversation. It was only the hacks that converted cop cars. BTW he is driving a Toyota hybrid now since the Crown Vics had around 350k miles on them

The Cops went to SUVs after the Crown Vics were discontinued.

I did some of my Performance Driving classes at Ford in a Crown Vic. You dont know what you are talking about. If you knew how to drive a Crown Vic it was a formidable all around good vehicle for Police use..

 

[Muff Muff]

The thing is - Toyota does short order cook for the USA market. If not - explain the Tundra. And the Tacoma. And the 4Runner. And the Sequoia. All 4 of which are North America only models designed just for us. And that's the paradox - Toyota built the 4Runner just for us - but puts the oldest and least efficient drivetrain in it that it has in the parts bin.

And it didn't use to be that way: "it's all new 2.4 liter engine with 116hp is the most powerful ever built for a sport utility vehicle" is a quote from an old Toyota ad. It also claimed the most ground clearance of any vehicle in its class. You won't see those sorts of claims anymore. Or the 22r turbo - "the most powerful small truck ever." Or even the 4th gen supercharged v8. https://www.fourwheeler.com/vehicle-reviews/129-0409-2004-toyota-4runner-supercharged/ - fastest 4x4 ever tested. Faster than the same period Porsche Cayenne. Where did that 4Runner go?

I'd say the Tundra, Tacoma, and Sequoia are more of Toyota Japan letting Toyota North America have some free reign (I'd say too much free reign) to do what they want with factories that already exist here. Basically, it was more of a bottom up decision to make those three, and they're arguably the worst, or at least the least competitive (except the Tacoma, but it isn't without issues, either) models in Toyota's lineup. The T100 was definitely a short order cook model, though. I'm not exactly sure why Toyota doesn't sell the HiLux here anymore, from my understanding it's much better than the Tacoma. The Tundra isn't bad, it's just not an F-150, and the Sequoia shouldn't even exist in my opinion. That's not even mentioning the frame issues that all three had.

As for the 4Runner, it's pretty much just a result of branding and badge engineering. They can't sell the Prado as the Prado here because then that would take away a high margin "luxury" vehicle from Lexus, but they still need to fill the affordable midsize BOF segment that otherwise doesn't exist in the US anymore. If the 4Runner didn't sell as well as it does, I'm sure it would've been killed off already and we'd see some TRD branded Highlander to try and get in on the off roading craze, much like the new Rav4.

There's companies that have design philosophies more in line with what you're saying, but they're also the companies that typically have poor reputations for reliability. Granted, this whole argument is coming from why Toyota doesn't use a 6sp transmission (or utilize a 6th gear that's already there?) that is already available and proven, but again, I'd say just enjoy it for what it is. I bought my 4Runner because it was old school and has a proven record. I do miss things like push button start and reverse camera lines that move with steering input, and even having a 6th gear, but those aren't deal breakers for me because the 4Runner as a package let's me do the things I want to do.

 

[cb1111]

If they didn’t change it then they would not have had upgrade to the new requirements.

Taxi drivers bought Crown Vics new. I have a neighbor who owns 2 medallions and have 2 Crown Vics he bought new. We had this conversation. It was only the hacks that converted cop cars. BTW he is driving a Toyota hybrid now since the Crown Vics had around 350k miles on them

The Cops went to SUVs after the Crown Vics were discontinued.

I did some of my Performance Driving classes at Ford in a Crown Vic. You dont know what you are talking about. If you knew how to drive a Crown Vic it was a formidable all around good vehicle for Police use..

The reason people think you are an asshat is because you make outlandish statements and then close with "I know what I'm talking about, you don't"

To date, you respond to all posts with no facts and no data but try to make yourself out as an expert. If that doesn't work, then you resort to large print.

To get back to the Crown Vic post.

Perhaps you don't know what the word "most" means, as I never claims that Ford never sold any new taxis. I said that most came from police fleets.

Why is your neighbor driving the Toyota hybrid? Perhaps because the Crown Vics weren't efficient and safe enough?

Crown Vics were never good handling vehicles regardless of suspension but they were big, cheap and reliable. Like the 4R, they were (relatively) simple to work on and had few electronics to go bad.

Crown Vics went away because the costs to upgrade the cars to modern standards and, quite simply, the move to SUVs was well underway (Tahoe Police Package) before the Crown went away.

You might want to do some research on the Michigan State Police Vehicle Testing program. Here is a quick overview and there are historical documents available if you ever get to the point of wanting to use facts in your posts

 

[RichinRidgewood]

The reason people think you are an asshat is because you make outlandish statements and then close with "I know what I'm talking about, you don't"

To date, you respond to all posts with no facts and no data but try to make yourself out as an expert. If that doesn't work, then you resort to large print.

To get back to the Crown Vic post.

Perhaps you don't know what the word "most" means, as I never claims that Ford never sold any new taxis. I said that most came from police fleets.

Why is your neighbor driving the Toyota hybrid? Perhaps because the Crown Vics weren't efficient and safe enough?

Crown Vics were never good handling vehicles regardless of suspension but they were big, cheap and reliable. Like the 4R, they were (relatively) simple to work on and had few electronics to go bad.

Crown Vics went away because the costs to upgrade the cars to modern standards and, quite simply, the move to SUVs was well underway (Tahoe Police Package) before the Crown went away.

You might want to do some research on the Michigan State Police Vehicle Testing program. Here is a quick overview and there are historical documents available if you ever get to the point of wanting to use facts in your posts

More name calling. Nice Work. Good Job!

The neighbors Crown Vics have 350,000 miles on them. Thats why he replaced them.

Believe what you want. Ive seen truck loads and truck loads of yellow Crown Vics going down the highways.

Burp. Ive followed the Michigan State Police tests for years while work at Ford.

 

[Jetboy]

Don’t try the revisionist history crap with me. You don’t understand what is going on when an automobile independent suspension is in operation and it was very clear in my “Solid Axle Fascination” thread. And again with all of the bells and whistles and claims to off-road awesomeness in the the Bronco’s advertising you will see it has Independent Front Suspension. Ford voted. It’s is superior.

I used to be in engine calibration at Ford. I have practical experience as well as many classes on power train design and calibration. I dont care about BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption). 4Runners have sold well with few any changes for years. Changes involves money and risk. Most consumers don’t have a clue what a transmission does or home many gears there are. There is no point to it.

More name calling. Good Job.

No revision needed. I explained in simple terms why solid axles have benefits in some offroad scenarios - specifically low speed and high articulation technical terrain. I showed you photos. I explained in detail with mathematical calculations of load distribution. Nothing sank in obviously.

In this case - again, we're back at you acting like a religious zealot. Despite all evidence, you want to believe what you want to believe.

Or maybe this is my fault and I assume you know more than you do so I haven't simplified this enough. So let's start with something really simple and see if we can something you'll understand and build from there. Do you understand that if tow gears are meshed and one has more teeth than the other - when you rotate one gear, the other will rotate at a different speed? And do you understand that the ratio of motion from one gear to the other is called a "gearing ratio" - so for example if you have one gear with 10 teeth and the other gear with 20 teeth, when one rotation of the gear with 10 teeth will equal half of one rotation of the gear with 20 teeth? Do you understand that and can we agree on my math?

 

[sn_85]

No revision needed. I explained in simple terms why solid axles have benefits in some offroad scenarios - specifically low speed and high articulation technical terrain. I showed you photos. I explained in detail with mathematical calculations of load distribution. Nothing sank in obviously.

In this case - again, we're back at you acting like a religious zealot. Despite all evidence, you want to believe what you want to believe.

Or maybe this is my fault and I assume you know more than you do so I haven't simplified this enough. So let's start with something really simple and see if we can something you'll understand and build from there. Do you understand that if tow gears are meshed and one has more teeth than the other - when you rotate one gear, the other will rotate at a different speed? And do you understand that the ratio of motion from one gear to the other is called a "gearing ratio" - so for example if you have one gear with 10 teeth and the other gear with 20 teeth, when one rotation of the gear with 10 teeth will equal half of one rotation of the gear with 20 teeth? Do you understand that and can we agree on my math?

It's like trying to argue with a flat earthers or anti-vaxxers. Just a waste of breath.

 

[Jetboy]

I'd say the Tundra, Tacoma, and Sequoia are more of Toyota Japan letting Toyota North America have some free reign (I'd say too much free reign) to do what they want with factories that already exist here. Basically, it was more of a bottom up decision to make those three, and they're arguably the worst, or at least the least competitive (except the Tacoma, but it isn't without issues, either) models in Toyota's lineup. The T100 was definitely a short order cook model, though. I'm not exactly sure why Toyota doesn't sell the HiLux here anymore, from my understanding it's much better than the Tacoma. The Tundra isn't bad, it's just not an F-150, and the Sequoia shouldn't even exist in my opinion. That's not even mentioning the frame issues that all three had.

As for the 4Runner, it's pretty much just a result of branding and badge engineering. They can't sell the Prado as the Prado here because then that would take away a high margin "luxury" vehicle from Lexus, but they still need to fill the affordable midsize BOF segment that otherwise doesn't exist in the US anymore. If the 4Runner didn't sell as well as it does, I'm sure it would've been killed off already and we'd see some TRD branded Highlander to try and get in on the off roading craze, much like the new Rav4.

There's companies that have design philosophies more in line with what you're saying, but they're also the companies that typically have poor reputations for reliability. Granted, this whole argument is coming from why Toyota doesn't use a 6sp transmission (or utilize a 6th gear that's already there?) that is already available and proven, but again, I'd say just enjoy it for what it is. I bought my 4Runner because it was old school and has a proven record. I do miss things like push button start and reverse camera lines that move with steering input, and even having a 6th gear, but those aren't deal breakers for me because the 4Runner as a package let's me do the things I want to do.

FWIW - it's not just the 6AT. That's just an example of the super low hanging fruit that would cost nothing to fix. I could make a laundry list of no-cost or almost no-cost improvements.

Using better quality hardware coating for the skid plate fasteners or coat them with a thread sealer.

Or put a damn oil change door in so we don't have to drop the engine skid every time. I have an aftermarket skid, but how hard would that be to put a door in? There's already a door in the diff skid to access the oil drain. Did toyota think that you'd just drain the oil and not change the filter?

How about a transmission oil cooler as an option?

How about about stamping the upper control arm with a different angle by 5 degrees on the ball joint so that it is clocked correctly not to bind on full droop? No cost other than the stamp tooling that is very cheap.

And why not move the ball joint in the arm forward by around half to 1 cm? I've never heard of a 4Runner having too much caster to get a good alignment. And then most lifts would not require another $500 part.

Why not cast some wheels that are more appropriate size? Shouldn't TRD Pro wheels be at least 7.5" wide? Ideally more like 8" wide? Why would they be narrower than the TRD OR wheels?



The 5th gen was great in 2010. Was still current at the 2014 at update. It's just that the normal 7 year product cycle for Toyota's products that has been generally used since 1984 has been thrown out the window. A 13 or 14 year product cycle isn't really normal. It's 3 years past due now and it shows. The modernization of the drive train didn't need to happen as a mid-cycle refresh. It should have happened as a new generation in 2018.

 

[LandCruiser]

FWIW - it's not just the 6AT. That's just an example of the super low hanging fruit that would cost nothing to fix. I could make a laundry list of no-cost or almost no-cost improvements.

Using better quality hardware coating for the skid plate fasteners or coat them with a thread sealer.

Or put a damn oil change door in so we don't have to drop the engine skid every time. I have an aftermarket skid, but how hard would that be to put a door in? There's already a door in the diff skid to access the oil drain. Did toyota think that you'd just drain the oil and not change the filter?

How about a transmission oil cooler as an option?

How about about stamping the upper control arm with a different angle by 5 degrees on the ball joint so that it is clocked correctly not to bind on full droop? No cost other than the stamp tooling that is very cheap.

And why not move the ball joint in the arm forward by around half to 1 cm? I've never heard of a 4Runner having too much caster to get a good alignment. And then most lifts would not require another $500 part.

Why not cast some wheels that are more appropriate size? Shouldn't TRD Pro wheels be at least 7.5" wide? Ideally more like 8" wide? Why would they be narrower than the TRD OR wheels?



The 5th gen was great in 2010. Was still current at the 2014 at update. It's just that the normal 7 year product cycle for Toyota's products that has been generally used since 1984 has been thrown out the window. A 13 or 14 year product cycle isn't really normal. It's 3 years past due now and it shows. The modernization of the drive train didn't need to happen as a mid-cycle refresh. It should have happened as a new generation in 2018.

I've been saying this for a while. They have the parts. The parts have been engineered and exhaustively tested in other vehicles.

They have other vehicles that have just finished an exhaustive overhaul in foreign markets like the new Prado which is in every way better than the GX and 4Runner currently on sale in the US (it's not a very sexy car but that's an easy fix that would take some minor bodywork).

Most people are frustrated that they're not even trying.

 

[Muff Muff]

FWIW - it's not just the 6AT. That's just an example of the super low hanging fruit that would cost nothing to fix. I could make a laundry list of no-cost or almost no-cost improvements.

Using better quality hardware coating for the skid plate fasteners or coat them with a thread sealer.

Or put a damn oil change door in so we don't have to drop the engine skid every time. I have an aftermarket skid, but how hard would that be to put a door in? There's already a door in the diff skid to access the oil drain. Did toyota think that you'd just drain the oil and not change the filter?

How about a transmission oil cooler as an option?

How about about stamping the upper control arm with a different angle by 5 degrees on the ball joint so that it is clocked correctly not to bind on full droop? No cost other than the stamp tooling that is very cheap.

And why not move the ball joint in the arm forward by around half to 1 cm? I've never heard of a 4Runner having too much caster to get a good alignment. And then most lifts would not require another $500 part.

Why not cast some wheels that are more appropriate size? Shouldn't TRD Pro wheels be at least 7.5" wide? Ideally more like 8" wide? Why would they be narrower than the TRD OR wheels?



The 5th gen was great in 2010. Was still current at the 2014 at update. It's just that the normal 7 year product cycle for Toyota's products that has been generally used since 1984 has been thrown out the window. A 13 or 14 year product cycle isn't really normal. It's 3 years past due now and it shows. The modernization of the drive train didn't need to happen as a mid-cycle refresh. It should have happened as a new generation in 2018.

That much I can agree with from a mechanical point of view. There are things Toyota can do that cost little to nothing to make life for the enthusiasts better, but the enthusiast is and always will be the minority car buyer for any segment. Slight changes here and there that may not cost that much individually really add up when multiplied over the ~130k -- 140k units moved every year for the last four years, especially when it's only to cater to a minority segment of the buyer population. It really must be that from their perspective, no cost per unit is better than little cost per unit, and if the sales numbers are high enough as is to not necessitate change, there won't be any change until the new generation comes along in the next couple years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Basically, I don't disagree with you, and as someone who works on my own cars and likes the aftermarket, I actually tend to agree with you from a personal perspective. But, I also understand why things are the way they are from a business perspective, for better or worse.

 

[thennen]

That much I can agree with from a mechanical point of view. There are things Toyota can do that cost little to nothing to make life for the enthusiasts better, but the enthusiast is and always will be the minority car buyer for any segment. Slight changes here and there that may not cost that much individually really add up when multiplied over the ~130k -- 140k units moved every year for the last four years, especially when it's only to cater to a minority segment of the buyer population. It really must be that from their perspective, no cost per unit is better than little cost per unit, and if the sales numbers are high enough as is to not necessitate change, there won't be any change until the new generation comes along in the next couple years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Basically, I don't disagree with you, and as someone who works on my own cars and likes the aftermarket, I actually tend to agree with you from a personal perspective. But, I also understand why things are the way they are from a business perspective, for better or worse.

I see a lot of 'Toyota should do this and Toyota should do that, and for these reasons', etc. While I do understand a lot of the sentiments, I think sometimes an obvious fact is overlooked: Toyota (any manufacturer) has specific goals, plans, required outcomes, profit goals, and on and on, that define success for a vehicle. They painstakingly study their market segments and do their best to fit the vehicles to them. I can't imagine any instance where something could be done to a vehicle that increases revenue and costs essentially zero (in money AND effort), that they wouldn't do. Maybe it seems to me that it would cost them almost nothing, but I don't see all their processes, toolings, regulations, approval processes, and so forth that would be necessary to implement this inexpensive thing. Why would Toyota do that? Why would they (or anyone) look at something that's a no-brainer moneymaker for them, that already exists, that essentially brings no cost with it, and say, "Nope."?

 

[Muff Muff]

I see a lot of 'Toyota should do this and Toyota should do that, and for these reasons', etc. While I do understand a lot of the sentiments, I think sometimes an obvious fact is overlooked: Toyota (any manufacturer) has specific goals, plans, required outcomes, profit goals, and on and on, that define success for a vehicle. They painstakingly study their market segments and do their best to fit the vehicles to them. I can't imagine any instance where something could be done to a vehicle that increases revenue and costs essentially zero (in money AND effort), that they wouldn't do. Maybe it seems to me that it would cost them almost nothing, but I don't see all their processes, toolings, regulations, approval processes, and so forth that would be necessary to implement this inexpensive thing. Why would Toyota do that? Why would they (or anyone) look at something that's a no-brainer moneymaker for them, that already exists, that essentially brings no cost with it, and say, "Nope."?

Again, I don't disagree. It really must be as simple as "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." There's really nothing "wrong" with the way the 4Runner is equipped. It's not optimal in some regards, it's definitely not the latest and greatest, but it sells well enough for them to take their focus away from it and put it elsewhere. Take the crossover segment for example; the Highlander has had three generations, two of which got facelifts, in the last 10 years alone because that segment's level of competition necessitates it. The 4Runner doesn't exactly compete with the Wrangler or the Bronco, or anything for that matter, but continues to sell exceptionally well.

People don't invest in new water heaters after a couple years because newer models have come out that may be marginally better. They wait until their water heater doesn't heat water anymore, then get a new one. Not a great example, but it at least illustrates what I think Toyota's mindset is when it comes to the 4Runner.

 

[ryguytheman]

People don't invest in new water heaters after a couple years because newer models have come out that may be marginally better. They wait until their water heater doesn't heat water anymore, then get a new one. Not a great example, but it at least illustrates what I think Toyota's mindset is when it comes to the 4Runner.

Judging by how many posts I see that are something along the lines of "Just traded in my 2019 Voodoo Pro for a 2020 Army Green" I'm not so sure this applies to the consumer base. Kidding, mostly.

But I guess it does show that some people really are happy with LED lights or similar tiny updates. But we'd see a LOT more people upgrading if they improved some of the bigger stuff mentioned in this thread.

 

[ElectroBoy]

It's like trying to argue with a flat earthers or anti-vaxxers. Just a waste of breath.

I’m waiting for the “name calling is a form of propaganda” diatribe.

 

[thennen]

Judging by how many posts I see that are something along the lines of "Just traded in my 2019 Voodoo Pro for a 2020 Army Green" I'm not so sure this applies to the consumer base. Kidding, mostly.

But I guess it does show that some people really are happy with LED lights or similar tiny updates. But we'd see a LOT more people upgrading if they improved some of the bigger stuff mentioned in this thread.

And regarding upgrading to a newer 4Runner, the decision to do that is encouraged by how well the 4Runner retains its value. Darn you, 4Runner!

 

[Jernik]

Someone mentioned a door for the oil filter. That one you'd think would have traction, as it would help the dealerships be more efficient when providing regular maintenance.

I will admit, I am disappointed my Tundra, which is 6 years newer, does NOT have the auto up/down feature on all windows like my 4Runner does. WTF Toyota?! :shrug:

 

[SpeedyKevin]

Someone mentioned a door for the oil filter. That one you'd think would have traction, as it would help the dealerships be more efficient when providing regular maintenance.

I will admit, I am disappointed my Tundra, which is 6 years newer, does NOT have the auto up/down feature on all windows like my 4Runner does. WTF Toyota?! :shrug:

Maybe they thought it encourage even the minimal DIYers to go to the dealer for an oil change lol

 

[83Mule]

Toyota won't care to make improvements until the sales crash. Then, when folks have moved on to another like the Bronco.....they won't be back regardless what they improve. Toyota will likely cancel the 4Runner or re-badge a Highlander with a ''Package'' and think that will pacify us......NOT! They blew it with the Tacoma re-do IMO. If Bronco sales are huge, Toyota may see a need to jump in and actually try and gain Market share. Legacy Profits are enough at 140K sales but if they leave meat on the table because the product is out of style they may have to step up. Me, I want an improved version but my Idea of better IS NOT more Nanny State or Soccer Mom crap, but improved power, gearing and a facelift that increases the Off-Road angles in a Base version without Safety sense and other Gee-Gaws. There is the Limited and Pro models for those folks. I absolutely want an improved 4 liter over any attempt to transplant the hideous 3.5!

 

[Jernik]

Toyota won't care to make improvements until the sales crash. Then, when folks have moved on to another like the Bronco.....they won't be back regardless what they improve. Toyota will likely cancel the 4Runner or re-badge a Highlander with a ''Package'' and think that will pacify us......NOT! They blew it with the Tacoma re-do IMO. If Bronco sales are huge, Toyota may see a need to jump in and actually try and gain Market share. Legacy Profits are enough at 140K sales but if they leave meat on the table because the product is out of style they may have to step up. Me, I want an improved version but my Idea of better IS NOT more Nanny State or Soccer Mom crap, but improved power, gearing and a facelift that increases the Off-Road angles in a Base version without Safety sense and other Gee-Gaws. There is the Limited and Pro models for those folks. I absolutely want an improved 4 liter over any attempt to transplant the hideous 3.5!

Definitely agree they dropped the ball with the "new" Tacoma. I think that was the result of too many years without competition in the segment and they were caught with their pants down when the Colorado/Canyon launched. Then it was "hurry up and do something" mode, and a half-baked result ensued.

As for 4R, seems it was just a couple years ago everyone thought for sure Toyota was going to drop it/quit building it altogether. If that was the original plan, and they decided to keep it and start over on a redesign on a new platform, then it's no wonder they seem so far behind.

Just some speculation on my part - I have no contacts at Toyota to know if any of this may be accurate or not. Just what seems it could be from the outside looking in.

 

[jp.vegas]

Someone mentioned a door for the oil filter. That one you'd think would have traction, as it would help the dealerships be more efficient when providing regular maintenance.

I will admit, I am disappointed my Tundra, which is 6 years newer, does NOT have the auto up/down feature on all windows like my 4Runner does. WTF Toyota?! :shrug:

The Tundra is the most dinosaur of the four Toyota BOF vehicles by far. It's positively barbaric.

 

[RichinRidgewood]

No revision needed. I explained in simple terms why solid axles have benefits in some offroad scenarios - specifically low speed and high articulation technical terrain. I showed you photos. I explained in detail with mathematical calculations of load distribution. Nothing sank in obviously.

I gave you the formulas and you couldn't do the math. If you can remember back that far I told you you need to it in 3D at the tire patch using the static coefficient of friction. And I also said not to use MathLab. You would then need to do it for the dynamic case and move on from there.

If you did that you would see how much better IFS is but you cant do it so you wont know.

Your expiation was below what a first semester mechanical engineer would need to be able to do in a Statics class in order to pass.

I can spot a pseudo-intellectuals craving attention and spouting nonsense along way away.