Update- Mysterious Steering play/clunk (not bushings or guide)

[Malcolm99]

Moses91, you could print the link to the FSM you quoted me in, or print it and take it to Toyota for alignment, they should always follow the FSM.

 

[moses91]

Thank you! Thats super helpful.
But since my rig is a 98 4runner, it's a different file correct?
I'm looking for the right FSM to print out and can't seem to find it.

 

[moses91]

Moses91, you could print the link to the FSM you quoted me in, or print it and take it to Toyota for alignment, they should always follow the FSM.

I think I found it.

Thanks!

 

[jross20]

Update

I installed the newer steering rack guide, this fixed some of the issues but there is still clunking and it's actually getting worse.

If I jack up the front, with stands, and go to town pulling and wiggling the wheels, tie rods, I cannot get any noise or movement out of them. It seems like the noise is just coming from the rack I guess. Maybe it's broken inside?

 

[snydmax]

Update

I installed the newer steering rack guide, this fixed some of the issues but there is still clunking and it's actually getting worse.

If I jack up the front, with stands, and go to town pulling and wiggling the wheels, tie rods, I cannot get any noise or movement out of them. It seems like the noise is just coming from the rack I guess. Maybe it's broken inside?

Have you checked for the infamous steering column play?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jross20]

Have you checked for the infamous steering column play?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey man thanks for the reply. Yeah, as far as I can tell the steering wheel and shaft are perfectly 1 to 1.

The creaks and pops are coming from the underside of the truck as far as I can tell.

 

[jross20]

So just as an update for anyone who was following. I finally gave up and scheduled an appointment with a Toyota dealership.

At this point I'm convinced the noise is coming from the left spindle as any kind of articulation and it makes a lot of noise. But again as far as I can tell, everything is working, I can't visually see an issues.

One side note though, I did realize at full lock that the little flange that would hold the sway bar link can actually contact the outer tie rod. I don't think this is the problem because the noise happens even when I'm dead straight, but I probably will trim this flange a little bit especially since I don't even use the front sway bar.

Will report back after the appointment.

 

[jross20]

So, $130 later, a Toyota technician said that all four camber bolts were very loose so hightened them all the spec.

Surprisingly though this made literally no difference on the sound, it still just as often and just as loud. The tech actually came to the front and personally told me that he was shocked that twerking the bolts made no difference. Said that he checked the torque on everything else he could think of, and confirmed that he can't find any play in anything. So he apologized and and basically said "I've no idea what it is".

So we're back to square one, I will say that I've noticed that the noise seems to go away when it's really cold, and I mean like sub 40° F. It's been 32° F for a few days now and since then the truck has been silent.

I just have no earthly clue what that means... if it comes back when it warms up then I guess I can say that it has to do with temperature? Blah

 

[CPUNeck]

[MENTION=388984]jross20[/MENTION] - I know it's been a minute, were you able to fix the steering problem?

 

[jross20]

[MENTION=388984]jross20[/MENTION] - I know it's been a minute, were you able to fix the steering problem?

Unfortunately no, but it hasn't changed and the slightest as far as I can tell so I just ended up saying "it is what it is".

When my upcoming move and all that is done I should have more time and a better garage to be able to mess with the stuff on my own so maybe someday I will be able to figure it out. Although I'll say at this point the only thing that I think it could be would be the actual rack I guess, or maybe the shaft coming down from the steering wheel.

 

[sleepydad]

Interesting, mine does look like shit, is this hard to replace?

I did watch that but as far as I can tell I can't feel any play between the shaft and the steering wheel. Like if you reach under the dash and hold it while turning the wheel.

At a different alignment shop, I need her to at least be drive-able while i make other repairs.

The 2nd shop kept going on about "the wheel keeps turning back" and I'm like...yeah it should return to center. If it doesn't on one side the cam/caster is wrong most likely.

I freaking wish there was a DIY shop where I could pay to do the alignment myself. I was certified years ago, would take a minute but it's like riding a bike

I can feel it... if somebody had a DIY rent my alignment rack for 1 hour I would be all over that. in fact I would even pay more than they charge when they do the work.

the toe-in should provide that "return to center" I have found the difference between .5mm of toe in per side vs 1mm of toe is crazy different. .5mm of toe per side seems normal, where 1mm of toe per side is like track car steering pulls hard back to center.

one thing I found was your really had to put a ton of pressure on things to get the free play, think about the amount of force in the steering system in general.

I don't know how many technical ugga dugga's of force the rack soaks up but it's got to be substantial.

all that rambling... maybe try a bit of excess toe in?

 

[jross20]

I can feel it... if somebody had a DIY rent my alignment rack for 1 hour I would be all over that. in fact I would even pay more than they charge when they do the work.

the toe-in should provide that "return to center" I have found the difference between .5mm of toe in per side vs 1mm of toe is crazy different. .5mm of toe per side seems normal, where 1mm of toe per side is like track car steering pulls hard back to center.

one thing I found was your really had to put a ton of pressure on things to get the free play, think about the amount of force in the steering system in general.

I don't know how many technical ugga dugga's of force the rack soaks up but it's got to be substantial.

all that rambling... maybe try a bit of excess toe in?

Well I do have a problem with the alignment being a little weird sometimes. Maybe that's not quite the right word but I don't know how else to describe it. So like the last time I had it done the steer ahead was positive 0.06°. the left toe was 2 in the right toe was 0.09

You know what, instead of typing that all out let me just post this picture. Basically after I had this last alignment done where they fixed everything I had an immediate improvement in gas mileage. From 17.5 ish to 19.25 ish. That lasted for several solid weeks. But now suddenly it's gone back down which makes me wonder if the alignment is out of whack again. And really I'm only thinking that because having the alignment done made such a massive immediate improvement.

The guy did suggest at some point looking at getting adjustable rear arms so that they could get everything perfect. Would that be worth doing?

 

[clearock]

Update

I installed the newer steering rack guide, this fixed some of the issues but there is still clunking and it's actually getting worse.

If I jack up the front, with stands, and go to town pulling and wiggling the wheels, tie rods, I cannot get any noise or movement out of them. It seems like the noise is just coming from the rack I guess. Maybe it's broken inside?

To properly complete a suspension shake down u should have two people and some pry bars to get the amount to pressure required to move that much weight around. My guess it u have something worn in the front.

 

[sleepydad]

Well I do have a problem with the alignment being a little weird sometimes. Maybe that's not quite the right word but I don't know how else to describe it. So like the last time I had it done the steer ahead was positive 0.06°. the left toe was 2 in the right toe was 0.09

You know what, instead of typing that all out let me just post this picture. Basically after I had this last alignment done where they fixed everything I had an immediate improvement in gas mileage. From 17.5 ish to 19.25 ish. That lasted for several solid weeks. But now suddenly it's gone back down which makes me wonder if the alignment is out of whack again. And really I'm only thinking that because having the alignment done made such a massive immediate improvement.

The guy did suggest at some point looking at getting adjustable rear arms so that they could get everything perfect. Would that be worth doing?

yea that toe difference would make me wonder. edit(but if those numbers are reality that alignment looks good) like I said I was kind of shocked by how much just .5 mm of toe made my truck behave completely different on the road.

I have scales so this is the weight of a typical 3rd gen no armor just pretty much stock. if you can move something around like clunk clunk with your hands then it's really worn. But a thousand pounds can exert a lot more force than you can, hence the other poster pry bar comment is a good idea IMO.

I mean rear adjustable arms are great, I have a set and it was cool to get it all dialed in but also a huge pain. You should not need adjustable rear arms really. I'm running them right now because I went down the rabbit hole with a 3 link the rear.

youtube link to what that ended up looking like, super happy with it.
Trailing ARM 3rd Gen final - YouTube

I basically use this dudes approach to alignment in my garage, it takes me a couple of hours because I'm old and slow but it works really well.
At Home Alignment Made Easy - How To Use String To Align Your Car - YouTube

<a href="https://imgur.com/ou5Csqy"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/ou5Csqyl.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

 

[CPUNeck]

I believe finding the culprit isn't out of reach, but as [MENTION=222826]clearock[/MENTION] mentioned, 2 people are needed. I would determine if the clunk is coming from the steering shaft or the rack. I'm not convinced the clunk noise has anything to do with the alignment concerns.

That change in toe is interesting. Not sure how long/distance between alignment with improved gas mileage was to current alignment, but a single shift in toe (the others barely changed) that significant indicates 1. previous tech didn't tighten tie-rod 2. failing component.

If you experience wonder or bump steer at all, I'd look at ball joints. My experience with newer techs has been they don't have a good understanding of differences in suspension design. These Toyotas have the lower ball joint riding in compression (inverted)... so you have to unload the joint to check for play. I should note my truck did not give the impression the entire front suspension was shot -- but it was.

I had issues with clunks and sudden steering effort increases... to the point it felt like the wheel was "stuck". It was random, happened at different degrees of turn and sometimes was gone all together! As hard as I reefed on the steering wheel when it would happen, I was certain it was a failed rack - nope, it was the CV joint on the steering shaft! Yep that mysterious part [MENTION=168172]sleepydad[/MENTION] posted 4529035040 YOKE SUB-ASSY, STEERING SLIDING (on 1st page) is a double cordon joint - different than a "rag joint." I believe it's only on the tilt columns. There was a "disk" inside the bolted together halves that was almost seized up/no lubricant. Shot some lube in there and bam - my problem 100% gone.