US vs Euro Towing

[NoDak]

interesting article on why US you need big trucks/suvs/etc to pull big loads compared to euro cars pulling that same big load. (in a nutshell)

This Is Why You Need A Big Truck To Tow Big Things In America

 

[lelandr]

interesting article on why US you need big trucks/suvs/etc to pull big loads compared to euro cars pulling that same big load. (in a nutshell)

This Is Why You Need A Big Truck To Tow Big Things In America

Also, keep in mind that America is also the land of the lowest common denominator. Since anyone with $15 & pulse has to be issued a DL qualifying them to operate a 26k lb vehicle, the laws have to err on the side of the stupid as opposed to the load a vehicle can sensibly tow. I also feel that, like in Europe, to drive a larger vehicle or tow a big trailer that one should be required to have additional training. Getting just a basic DL in most of Europe would already disqualify a significant number of American motorists, the additional training for the endorsements would be helpful.

How many times has everyone seen someone towing a trailer or driving a huge RV & thought, hmm, that looks pretty stupid?

 

[KidVermicious]

Also, keep in mind that America is also the land of the lowest common denominator. Since anyone with $15 & pulse has to be issued a DL qualifying them to operate a 26k lb vehicle, the laws have to err on the side of the stupid as opposed to the load a vehicle can sensibly tow. I also feel that, like in Europe, to drive a larger vehicle or tow a big trailer that one should be required to have additional training. Getting just a basic DL in most of Europe would already disqualify a significant number of American motorists, the additional training for the endorsements would be helpful.

How many times has everyone seen someone towing a trailer or driving a huge RV & thought, hmm, that looks pretty stupid?

You didn't actually read that article, did you?

The writer tried to play to the "big dumb American" theme, but even after all his math and James May cracks, even he was forced to admit that the reason the Brits can tow more with smaller cars is only because they go slower. We can can tow heavier loads at a higher rate of speed with more safety because we use large trucks to do it with - more mass and longer wheelbase means more tongue loading which means more stability.

Europeans tend to drive smaller cars (and fewer pickups) not because they're smarter or more evolved, but because a large percentage of their surface streets are Old World relics that Big Dum Amerkan Trucks just wouldn't fit on. Here in the US we have wide surface streets and a vastly larger rural area full of people who own and use their Big Dum Amerkan Trucks to tow larger loads at higher speeds safely. Hence the US "truck culture" and the European "wagon culture", and why we tow huge trailers with huge trucks and they tow small trailers with small cars.

It's an overpopulation thing. When there's room to go big, humans go big - it's human nature. Here in the US we've got room to go big, so we did. It's got f*ck-all to do with drivers license requirements.

 

[T4R2014]

I see the tiny cars with trailers hitched up going well past 60MPH. I am not going to say that towing with a Peugeot 205 is as safe as towing with an F350, though.

KidV is right about the tiny streets contributing to this difference. If I do decide to move to Europe I will have to look into a Hilux Surf electric folding mirror conversion. If I were to drive into one of those many tiny streets and a bus is coming the other way, I may be screwed and have to back up. lelandr is also correct about the general EU driver license standards. If we implemented those standards in the US we would have a lot of shitty drivers off of our roads. It also appears that everybody knows how to drive manual. If you take a peek inside the cars of an average French parking lot, you will find that more than a good 3/4 of the cars are manual.

 

[1engineer]

US tow safety prioritizes a naturally safe dynamic situation so that more people can pull at freeway speeds with less likelihood of incident. There is no doubt that using this method results in an inherently safer tow situation as it relates to vehicle dynamics.

UK tow safety allows for the possibility to carry more weight, but erring on the side of caution with far less safety margin in respect to the physics.

Bottom line - Can a tow vehicle pull a heavier trailer there than is rated for here in the US? Yes, with some provisions:

1. The closer the trailer weight gets to the vehicle weight the slower you will need to drive.

2. DO NOT exceed 65 mph with a tongue weight in the 4-7% range, this is a guaranteed way to sway and 65 is the max, go slower in regards to #1.

3. None of this takes into account crosswinds, cooling systems, hp, or braking effectiveness.

The above is all that needs to be said.
After reading the article, some of the math they use is absolutely not applicable for the premise of the article. Could have made it much simpler but the author apparently wanted to show crap to impress, not explain.

 

[lelandr]

You didn't actually read that article, did you?

The writer tried to play to the "big dumb American" theme, but even after all his math and James May cracks, even he was forced to admit that the reason the Brits can tow more with smaller cars is only because they go slower. We can can tow heavier loads at a higher rate of speed with more safety because we use large trucks to do it with - more mass and longer wheelbase means more tongue loading which means more stability.

Europeans tend to drive smaller cars (and fewer pickups) not because they're smarter or more evolved, but because a large percentage of their surface streets are Old World relics that Big Dum Amerkan Trucks just wouldn't fit on. Here in the US we have wide surface streets and a vastly larger rural area full of people who own and use their Big Dum Amerkan Trucks to tow larger loads at higher speeds safely. Hence the US "truck culture" and the European "wagon culture", and why we tow huge trailers with huge trucks and they tow small trailers with small cars.

It's an overpopulation thing. When there's room to go big, humans go big - it's human nature. Here in the US we've got room to go big, so we did. It's got f*ck-all to do with drivers license requirements.

I read the article in its entirety.

Europeans tend to drive smaller cars (along with being predominantly diesel & manual transmission) because gas is about $8-9/gal (diesel is cheaper) and cars tend to be considerably more expensive. The slower speed is very important, and I agree with that completely. You see vehicles there very strictly adhering to those speed limits. The reason Clarkson jokes about caravans is because they do poke along at 80 or 100kph--somtimes in countries with roads with unlimited speed regulations. It's a blast having to scrub off 120/130/140kph because some Dutch guy pulling a camper at 100kph with his Opel pulled out to pass a truck doing 80.

F-all to license requirements, huh? First, in Western Europe anyway, cars have to pass an annual or biennial safety inspection which is much more rigorous than in the USA. Getting one's driving license is MUCH harder and more expensive. Furthermore, you have to qualify for larger loads separately.

I still stand by the idea that the towing requirements are higher, partially due to the speed, but also considering the fact that many people drive around in general, as well as tow, with improperly maintained vehicles, at less well regulated speeds with no actual training requirement. Furthermore, there are a lot more well-enforced rules about what you're supposed to be doing behind the wheel in Europe.

For you, I or anyone else to go buy a Pickup & tow a 10000lb trailer with it requires NO special training. None. That's kind of BS. Not sure about where you live, but many states require ZERO driver's training. $15 bucks & pass a test that any 5th grader could manage, parallel park & manage to stand still enough for a picture.

Europe's not particularly overpopulated (and I never tried to insinuate that they were smarter or more evolved), and it's really only in very old city centers where the streets are small. In Scandinavia, where the rules are pretty much the same, the population is downright sparse. The reason for the American love affair with big vehicles is that until 10-15 years ago that the gas was basically free & apparently big vehicles are cool.

Sorry, but there's a lot of overkill with vehicles people use to tow here, and maybe not all bad.

 

[1engineer]

I read the article in its entirety.

Europeans tend to drive smaller cars (along with being predominantly diesel & manual transmission) because gas is about $8-9/gal (diesel is cheaper) and cars tend to be considerably more expensive. The slower speed is very important, and I agree with that completely. You see vehicles there very strictly adhering to those speed limits. The reason Clarkson jokes about caravans is because they do poke along at 80 or 100kph--somtimes in countries with roads with unlimited speed regulations. It's a blast having to scrub off 120/130/140kph because some Dutch guy pulling a camper at 100kph with his Opel pulled out to pass a truck doing 80.

F-all to license requirements, huh? First, in Western Europe anyway, cars have to pass an annual or biennial safety inspection which is much more rigorous than in the USA. Getting one's driving license is MUCH harder and more expensive. Furthermore, you have to qualify for larger loads separately.

I still stand by the idea that the towing requirements are higher, partially due to the speed, but also considering the fact that many people drive around in general, as well as tow, with improperly maintained vehicles, at less well regulated speeds with no actual training requirement. Furthermore, there are a lot more well-enforced rules about what you're supposed to be doing behind the wheel in Europe.

For you, I or anyone else to go buy a Pickup & tow a 10000lb trailer with it requires NO special training. None. That's kind of BS. Not sure about where you live, but many states require ZERO driver's training. $15 bucks & pass a test that any 5th grader could manage, parallel park & manage to stand still enough for a picture.

Europe's not particularly overpopulated (and I never tried to insinuate that they were smarter or more evolved), and it's really only in very old city centers where the streets are small. In Scandinavia, where the rules are pretty much the same, the population is downright sparse. The reason for the American love affair with big vehicles is that until 10-15 years ago that the gas was basically free & apparently big vehicles are cool.

Sorry, but there's a lot of overkill with vehicles people use to tow here, and maybe not all bad.

You are getting off topic and you are sadly misinformed about a bunch of stuff my friend.

First, why do you think it's more expensive and "harder" to get a driver's license in Europe? You insinuate that because it is, people who have them are going to be better drivers and with that, will be more competent to pull a trailer. Nothing could be further from the truth!

The requirements in Europe for a license are more stringent and more expensive for one reason and one reason only: To push their citizens to use public transportation in urban areas. You say Europe is not overcrowded but have you ever went to Paris? London? Every big city in Germany? Rome? Sure, there are areas that are not crowded but like here, they are not crowded for a reason! Duh. The governments over there started years ago gradually increasing the cost for the privilege to drive to cut down on automobile use in urban areas. China and India are both starting to do the same. Ever been to New Delhi? Shanghai? I have and it's ugly with traffic, just like metropolitan areas were in Europe 30 years ago.

So to say that because it costs more and is harder to get a license in Europe will equate to their drivers being able to pull a trailer better is hogwash. The only thing that means is they are willing to study a bit and pay more for the privilege.

 

[KidVermicious]

You're missing his point, Greg. Merkans R Dum. Everything else flows from that premise, and I suspect you're wasting your time.

 

[02SE]

I've driven all over the USA, and in several European countries; UK, Germany, France, Italy, Austria, etc.

I would have to say the level of driving acumen exhibited in the European countries, IS higher than what I've experienced in this country.

For example I've been riding up I-5 today from Sonoma, California, through Oregon, heading for the Seattle area. The amount of boneheaded driving maneuvers witnessed just today, is amazing.

 

[lelandr]

You are getting off topic and you are sadly misinformed about a bunch of stuff my friend.

First, why do you think it's more expensive and "harder" to get a driver's license in Europe? You insinuate that because it is, people who have them are going to be better drivers and with that, will be more competent to pull a trailer. Nothing could be further from the truth!

The requirements in Europe for a license are more stringent and more expensive for one reason and one reason only: To push their citizens to use public transportation in urban areas. You say Europe is not overcrowded but have you ever went to Paris? London? Every big city in Germany? Rome? Sure, there are areas that are not crowded but like here, they are not crowded for a reason! Duh. The governments over there started years ago gradually increasing the cost for the privilege to drive to cut down on automobile use in urban areas. China and India are both starting to do the same. Ever been to New Delhi? Shanghai? I have and it's ugly with traffic, just like metropolitan areas were in Europe 30 years ago.

So to say that because it costs more and is harder to get a license in Europe will equate to their drivers being able to pull a trailer better is hogwash. The only thing that means is they are willing to study a bit and pay more for the privilege.

I have a German license, & it was a heck of a lot more rigorous to get than my US license. I've driven a lot in Europe, and generally speaking, the quality of driving & adherence to rules is better. Driven in Rome, through Paris at rush hour (admittedly bad planning) throughout most of Germany and quite a bit in Finland. Sorry, as someone who lives in Atlanta, our traffic is as bad or worse than any of those places, and it's a smaller population which is more sparse.

So, to say that more extensive training doesn't improve driving is completely wrong? Really? Keep in mind you're discussing this with someone who instructs track events & volunteers his time to teach car control to teens because he thinks driver's training is crucial and sorely lacking in the USA.

This was about European laws, but Asian driving is attributable to lax enforcement & little effort in getting a license. I've driven in Thailand & Korea. I lived in China for two years (not contiguously). In China, you can get a driving license without even having ever driven... The result is near mayhem in places like Shanghai or Beijing. I have done everything I can to avoid going to India, but I suspect that it's similar.

 

[lelandr]

You're missing his point, Greg. Merkans R Dum. Everything else flows from that premise, and I suspect you're wasting your time.

You're either not reading my posts or, for some reason reading into them what you want. I specifically said that I didn't feel that Europeans were any smarter or more evolved. But continue on reading into what I've posted what you prefer... Free country & all.

 

[T4R2014]

I've driven all over the USA, and in several European countries; UK, Germany, France, Italy, Austria, etc.

I would have to say the level of driving acumen exhibited in the European countries, IS higher than what I've experienced in this country.

For example I've been riding up I-5 today from Sonoma, California, through Oregon, heading for the Seattle area. The amount of boneheaded driving maneuvers witnessed just today, is amazing.

This. I can't agree with the other point. I know people in the states that have been driving for years that still don't know WTF they are doing in a Walmart parking lot. The standards are much lower.

 

[1engineer]

I've driven all over the USA, and in several European countries; UK, Germany, France, Italy, Austria, etc.

I would have to say the level of driving acumen exhibited in the European countries, IS higher than what I've experienced in this country.

For example I've been riding up I-5 today from Sonoma, California, through Oregon, heading for the Seattle area. The amount of boneheaded driving maneuvers witnessed just today, is amazing.

I have a German license, & it was a heck of a lot more rigorous to get than my US license. I've driven a lot in Europe, and generally speaking, the quality of driving & adherence to rules is better. Driven in Rome, through Paris at rush hour (admittedly bad planning) throughout most of Germany and quite a bit in Finland. Sorry, as someone who lives in Atlanta, our traffic is as bad or worse than any of those places, and it's a smaller population which is more sparse.

So, to say that more extensive training doesn't improve driving is completely wrong? Really? Keep in mind you're discussing this with someone who instructs track events & volunteers his time to teach car control to teens because he thinks driver's training is crucial and sorely lacking in the USA.

This was about European laws, but Asian driving is attributable to lax enforcement & little effort in getting a license. I've driven in Thailand & Korea. I lived in China for two years (not contiguously). In China, you can get a driving license without even having ever driven... The result is near mayhem in places like Shanghai or Beijing. I have done everything I can to avoid going to India, but I suspect that it's similar.

This. I can't agree with the other point. I know people in the states that have been driving for years that still don't know WTF they are doing in a Walmart parking lot. The standards are much lower.

I too have driven extensively throughout the world.

Take your pick:
1. Drive in a country that has has cheap affordable licenses and relative few driving rules and if you do break them you just have to pay a small (or nil) fine, or
2. Drive in a country that has extremely expensive licenses, multitudes of very strict rules and if you break one and they catch you it could ruin your career and affect your livelihood.

Another question: Why is gas and diesel so expensive in European countries? The followup is
Why are taxes there so high? Answer: To keep control over just anyone driving.

Freedom sometimes is a double edged sword. You have to take the good with the bad, or you could do like I did and move away from the crazies in big cities. Or you could just move back to Europe and live under their strict, totalitarian and expensive driving system.

 

[02SE]

Thanks for the unneeded Civics lesson.

My only point was confirming that the European countries do in fact have a higher standard of driving ability, than is generally displayed in this country.

 

[lelandr]

I too have driven extensively throughout the world.

Take your pick:
1. Drive in a country that has has cheap affordable licenses and relative few driving rules and if you do break them you just have to pay a small (or nil) fine, or
2. Drive in a country that has extremely expensive licenses, multitudes of very strict rules and if you break one and they catch you it could ruin your career and affect your livelihood.

Obviously, I have picked the first one, that being said, I was just presenting a different viewpoint. A MT article last year reported that German & Finnish deaths per mile driven were about half of the USA. Sorry, but I think that's a little bit of a problem. I DID also suggest that along with mandatory, enforced maintenance and slower speeds was a reason why they are allowed tow more with less.

In fact, a reasonably intelligent person with a little know-how (either experience or training) could tow 2 tons with a RAV4 from coast to coast & back, provided they operate within the design limitations of the vehicle. I only suggested that commonly, we go a little overboard on the rules due to litigation & the fact that sometimes rather unintelligent or ambivalent persons will try to tow as such--with results that can harm others as well. I also suggested that maybe this wasn't a bad thing.

Obviously, there is a balance as well. When I was in my 20s, I thought driving in Thailand was fun. No rules, always a challenge, kinda like an X-games event, while all of my colleagues were petrified to drive. Now that I'm 40, I'm honestly not so excited about driving there when we go this year...It just seems like a lot of extra work. Yes, I do prefer W Europe where people yield the left lane, stop for me when I'm on a bike or foot, don't drive the wrong way, don't drive while eating, reading, texting, etc.

Another question: Why is gas and diesel so expensive in European countries? The followup is
Why are taxes there so high? Answer: To keep control over just anyone driving.

I was going to mention this. I feel that the high prices are more to subsidize the extensive public transit system. Additionally, the roads there tend to be a better maintained, which costs a lot with their labor rates. I do prefer to go by foot when I can & like public transit for local trips--especially with my drinking habits. That being said, most Europeans will admit that it is more cost-effective & convenient to travel longer distances by car. Even with the rental & fuel, I have found that it is cheaper to drive than pay for two or more train tickets. In fact, I think that they have figured out what the market will bear as I assume that they must enjoy the considerable tax revenues...

Out of curiosity, you haven't seen anyone driving recently & thought that maybe the world would be a better place if they didn't have a DL?:biggrin2:

Freedom sometimes is a double edged sword. You have to take the good with the bad, or you could do like I did and move away from the crazies in big cities. Or you could just move back to Europe and live under their strict, totalitarian and expensive driving system.

I agree for the most part, except I wouldn't call the driving system totalitarian. I found it easy enough to drive anywhere there with a brain & some common sense.

I would like to move farther from the city, however, that would only increase the time per day that I spend waiting for other people in my little 4-wheeled prison. Fortunately, my trips to customer sites get me out of this quagmire on a regular basis.