Wandering on road

[CarmMontana]

Hey guys..

Loving the forum, so much already fixed due to all the help. So with that said I am hoping you can help me figure out why my 4 runner wanders all over the place on rutted roads. I think I need to tack weld the joint in the steering but also want to see if there is anything else I should take a look at.

I have checked all the suspension and its all very tight with no signs of issues other than the sway bar. Any help would be great.

 

[Tango71]

Hey guys..

Loving the forum, so much already fixed due to all the help. So with that said I am hoping you can help me figure out why my 4 runner wanders all over the place on rutted roads. I think I need to tack weld the joint in the steering but also want to see if there is anything else I should take a look at.

I have checked all the suspension and its all very tight with no signs of issues other than the sway bar. Any help would be great.

There is a rubber coupling just above the steering rack. Make sure it is in good order as well with no tears/cracks. I replaced mine when I did my body lift.

 

[Baja Runner]

Take it to a good alignment shop...

Other things to check for is ball joint play and tie rod play. Its pretty simple to change out the inner and outer tie rods, as well as the lower ball joints. You can also replace the steering rack bushings. But to me, Id try looking into a good alignment shop and having them dialing it in.

 

[Drcoffee]

If the steering components are in good shape, talk to your alignment shop and have them add in as much toe-in as they can, Within the allowable range. Toe-in helps with that twitchy steering feeling when the tire wants to wander around.

 

[Nelsonmd]

Hey guys..

Loving the forum, so much already fixed due to all the help. So with that said I am hoping you can help me figure out why my 4 runner wanders all over the place on rutted roads. I think I need to tack weld the joint in the steering but also want to see if there is anything else I should take a look at.

I have checked all the suspension and its all very tight with no signs of issues other than the sway bar. Any help would be great.

I doubt your steering slip joint is the problem. Lots of people jump to that one right away because there's a neat write-up on it, but that is a very specific problem, and is by far not the most common cause of wandering like you describe. If you read the write-ups, it gives you an easy procedure for checking this (sticking your hand down on the steering column, turning the wheel and feeling for play in the slip joint). If that procedure doesn't result in obvious play, then don't tack weld a safety feature...

It could be lots of things:
Lower Ball Joints
Inner tie rod ends
Outer tie rod ends
worn out suspension (this is pretty common, and is mostly limited to wandering on bumps)
steering rack bushings
control arm bushings

Then if all else checks out, it may be in the steering column, but you should go there last.

I would put my money on worn out suspension.

Adjusting toe to the extreme of the spec would just be a band-aid to cover the real problem. Something is worn out and needs to be replaced. I replaced most of these front end components all in one shot and now my 13 year old 4runner drives like it's brand new.

 

[Shibby!]

I have the same problem with my 4R. Had the problem since I bought it.

Mine drives fairly well on flat, smooth roads, but easily affected by wind. When driving down a road with ruts (semi trucks, well used, etc) it'll get very twitchy and caution is required. Reminds me of a snowmobile with the improper toe out and what sledders call "darting".

I'm in the process of lifting it, which has me worried about not tracking down this problem first, however, I feel fairly confident that it's an alignment issue. Tire wear proves some of that with irregularly worn tires.

So, I may be creating a headache anyways, but I'm lifting it with LC/TRD set-up, new tires, and alignment. If it's not fixed I'll start looking at steering bushings, etc since I'll ask the alignment shop to confirm tie rod and upper ball joints prior to doing the work. I just replaced the lowers with OEM ball joints. I was supposed to have uppers but they were out of OEM and apparently weren't getting anymore in. I wasn't going to put in generic brand ball joints so for the time being I skipped out on it.

I know alignments aren't cheap, but if you have a chance, jack up the tire. Do the prybar test for ball joints. Confirm tie rods appear tight. If all is good, take it and get the alignment done. I'm fairly sure it'll fix your issues and save your tires!

 

[Sheepdog]

Excessive toe-in with radial tires negates their lower rolling resistance advantage over bias-ply tires. This will reduce fuel economy and increase wear. I would consider a urethane anti-sway bar bushing kit, rotate the tires, and get an alignment.

 

[CarmMontana]

Ok guys... Back to the top. After the lift and alignment with the tie rods replaced I still have the wander. On flat roads it's great, tracks straight and everything is good. On rutted roads it's scary... So I took it back to the alignment shop and they told me everything is good, all is tight and they aren't sure what's up. They thought it may be the tires. Any thoughts?

 

[1985taylor1925]

Ok guys... Back to the top. After the lift and alignment with the tie rods replaced I still have the wander. On flat roads it's great, tracks straight and everything is good. On rutted roads it's scary... So I took it back to the alignment shop and they told me everything is good, all is tight and they aren't sure what's up. They thought it may be the tires. Any thoughts?

There are so many threads on this forum about front end issues. Literally almost every day theres a new thread about someones loose steering, vibrations, knocking or clunking, etc . . . And a lot of guys like you and myself have replaced the front end components that would typically cause these issues. Granted the problem is not always the same for each case, and new ball joint, inner/outter tie rods, rack bushings, shocks and coils, wheel balancing, and alignment all seem to help to a point. But Im convinced in the end the majority of steering slop and related issues fall back on the steering rack. Ive driven many many cars and trucks, and never felt a front end quite like the 3rd gen runner. One minute the steering seems tight, then you hit a good size bump and your steering wheel goes crazy. The rack is what keeps the wheels in place (along with centrifical force of the rolling tires of course). But its the tightness in the rack that keeps the wheels from pushing or pulling sideways when one tire hits a good sized pothole, or when a large gust of wind hits you on the highway. Granted the 4runner is tall and square, so side winds are going to push it. But in the end my theory is that the 3rd gen OEM rack has some issues with holding the wheels tightly in place. When so many of us have replace our front end components and still have these issues, an overly loose steering rack is the only answer that makes sense.

 

[NCrunner0]

Front end

I agree with you 1985taylor! I just got done replacing all front end parts(Otr,itr,lbj,ubj,remaned steering rack) and had an alignment and although it is better, it still wonders on anything other than a smooth and flat road! It is almost as bad as my 2000 f350! I do have a bent rear lower control arm I took off this am to straighten but I am not hopefull that it will help. I feel it is just the nature of the beast. I am going to get me some spiderrtax spacers and see if sliding out those wheels will help with the tip top feeling, my fj cruisers wheels tuck tight under the runner and make it feel a little top heavy.

 

[1985taylor1925]

I agree with you 1985taylor! I just got done replacing all front end parts(Otr,itr,lbj,ubj,remaned steering rack) and had an alignment and although it is better, it still wonders on anything other than a smooth and flat road! It is almost as bad as my 2000 f350! I do have a bent rear lower control arm I took off this am to straighten but I am not hopefull that it will help. I feel it is just the nature of the beast. I am going to get me some spiderrtax spacers and see if sliding out those wheels will help with the tip top feeling, my fj cruisers wheels tuck tight under the runner and make it feel a little top heavy.

Im on my second remanufactured rack, and I will never waste my time on one again. They are useless. The next rack I get will be brand new.

So the truth about wheel spacers . . . wheel spacers are going to make your front end feel even more sloppy. I posted this picture a while back to illustrate this in a different thread where wheel spacers came up. Your wheels swivel at a pivot point, and when you add a spacer you increase the distance between the wheel and pivot point. That creates more leverage for swiveling the tires. Its like adding a cheater bar to create more leverage when trying to remove a bolt (granted on a very minor level). But with the influence of 5000lbs pushing the tires, that small spacer will make a noticable difference. I added 1.5 spacers to my stock wheels several months ago, and the front end wandered like crazy.

 

[CarmMontana]

Thanks guys for the info. Im at my wits end here. I will look into the rack and see if I can swing that.

Just out of curiosity has anyone changed the guide on the rack, or tightened the guide bolt. Ive heard that helps a bit and was wondering if it would...

 

[CarmMontana]

Anybody done this?

 

[curtperry]

I have the same problem as the OP.

Just out of curiosity has anyone changed the guide on the rack, or tightened the guide bolt. Ive heard that helps a bit and was wondering if it would...

I have tightened the guide bolt and replaced my rack bushings so far. There was improvement from doing these things but the problem remains. I just received a newer style guide and will install that next. After that I'm looking at the column.

I added 1.5 spacers to my stock wheels several months ago, and the front end wandered like crazy.

Maybe the extra leverage/stress just makes apparent an existing problem? I'm not willing to give up my 1.5" spacers without trying many other possibilities... can't anyway due to tire rub.

 

[Baja Runner]

Hopefully you're taking your trucks to a good alignment shop and not some ignoramus at a tire shop.

A seasoned alignment/front end specialist will be able to tell you exactly whats up. This shouldn't be such a mystery.

Have you tried jacking up the front and tugging on the tires at 9 and 6 o'clock? Is there play? Where is it coming from? Hows your bushings look on the a-arms? Have you replaced the ball joints? Steering rack bushings ok? Inner and outer tie-rods looking decent? The rack guides do have play, but I've never got wondering from it.

When I had my first 4Runner, I lifted it and it sucked on the highway. I wasted money spending it on stupid alignments from tire shops that just read stuff from a computer. I then took it to an alignment specialist (yes they will cost more, but you get what you pay for) and it fixed my problems. Now I never go back to a general shop for that work.

 

[Nelsonmd]

Anybody done this?

I have tightened the guide bolt and replaced my rack bushings so far. There was improvement from doing these things but the problem remains. I just received a newer style guide and will install that next. After that I'm looking at the column.

Check out the tutorial and documentation reference sticky. It has a link to a very detailed guide on replacing the steering rack guide. That is a common point for slop, so much so that Toyota redesigned it for 01-02, so you could try replacing yours with one from an 01-02 4runner.

Regarding the column, again, this is a very specific fix for a specific problem, not a general front end slop problem. The tutorial and documentation reference sticky has a link to a great thread on that as well. Don't jump to welding the column without taking the 10 seconds to actually diagnose it.

I'll make it easy for you, here's the instructions on how to diagnose play in the column:

Diagnose Your Truck in 10 Seconds:
As Gunny pointed out, you can check to see if your vehicle has this problem simply by reaching under the dash and holding the steering shaft in one hand while slightly turning the steering wheel back and forth with the other hand. The shaft is behind the Lower Left Hand Finish Panel, and you can reach it without having to remove anything. I included a picture of this area in the procedure below. If you detect a small amount of movement between these two locations (you will feel a small knock, or pop), then it is likely that your truck has this problem. I have read many posts where people have replaced entire steering racks only to find that the problem is still there. This quick test will tell you if there is play in the steering system even before reaching the steering rack.

Go here for the link to the pictures: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/69744-tutorial-documentation-reference.html

Seriously guys, just take the 10 seconds to check this, and come back and tell us if you had play in the column. It's free. That will answer that question once and for all.

I know it is annoying chasing this problem, but like I said before, there are lots of possible contributors. I see a couple of you say you replaced all your joints, and even your rack, but how're your struts? New, old, worn out? For me, the struts were 90% of my wandering on bumps. May not be it for you, but it's very possible.

Also, the article linked in the sticky talks about the viability of the tack welds to break in a crash and still provide the ability of the slip joint to give and not injure the driver as much, but I don't really buy it. A weld strong enough to hold the stress and vibration of the steering column (since there is play, the weld is taking that stress) is probably not going to give with just the weight of your head and shoulders slamming against it. So bottom line, welding your column is disabling a safety features that Toyota obviously went well out of their way to provide (and paid more for), so do it at your own risk.

 

[curtperry]

Thanks for the info nelsonmd.

I have followed that procedure before and I did feel a small knock in the column when moving the wheel back and forth, but it's so small that it just doesn't seem like it would translate into a ton of looseness on the freeway.

I suppose I'll enlist some help tonight and lay underneath inspecting things while someone turns the wheel.

 

[madbomber08]

I have the same problem with my 4R. Had the problem since I bought it.

Mine drives fairly well on flat, smooth roads, but easily affected by wind. When driving down a road with ruts (semi trucks, well used, etc) it'll get very twitchy and caution is required. Reminds me of a snowmobile with the improper toe out and what sledders call "darting".

I'm in the process of lifting it, which has me worried about not tracking down this problem first, however, I feel fairly confident that it's an alignment issue. Tire wear proves some of that with irregularly worn tires.

So, I may be creating a headache anyways, but I'm lifting it with LC/TRD set-up, new tires, and alignment. If it's not fixed I'll start looking at steering bushings, etc since I'll ask the alignment shop to confirm tie rod and upper ball joints prior to doing the work. I just replaced the lowers with OEM ball joints. I was supposed to have uppers but they were out of OEM and apparently weren't getting anymore in. I wasn't going to put in generic brand ball joints so for the time being I skipped out on it.

I know alignments aren't cheap, but if you have a chance, jack up the tire. Do the prybar test for ball joints. Confirm tie rods appear tight. If all is good, take it and get the alignment done. I'm fairly sure it'll fix your issues and save your tires!

This describes my 4 runner and i exactly. Its always wandered on bumpy uneven roads to the point that if i'd let go of the wheel itd find its way off the road pretty fast. I have wanted to lift mine as well since i got it, but the wandering steering (and brakes) have kept me from putting more money into it if it may not help the problem. But i know im in the wrong place if i am gonna be a tight wad.

When you get your lift installed you should update if the worn out suspension was indeed the core of the wandering problem.

 

[CarmMontana]

Well I went ahead and replaced the guide on the rack with the roller type. No change . Then I over tightened the guide and man it's worse... No idea why that would be. So to clarify I have replaced all shocks, struts and tie rod ends. Bushings in rack and pinion, had it aligned and still it wanders. I even checked my steering column and no play.

I'm starting to wonder if the guy at the alignment shop was onto something about the tires...

What else is there guys?

 

[nevada]

Ok guys... Back to the top. After the lift and alignment with the tie rods replaced I still have the wander. On flat roads it's great, tracks straight and everything is good. On rutted roads it's scary... So I took it back to the alignment shop and they told me everything is good, all is tight and they aren't sure what's up. They thought it may be the tires. Any thoughts?

what is the caster like? did they give you a print out on the alignment?


sounds like not enough, or maybe even negative caster.

also, what tires/wheels are you running. you might have just the right(wrong lol) track width to catch the edge of the ruts, the tires will ALWAYS try to climb OUT of the ruts.

This describes my 4 runner and i exactly. Its always wandered on bumpy uneven roads to the point that if i'd let go of the wheel itd find its way off the road pretty fast. I have wanted to lift mine as well since i got it, but the wandering steering (and brakes) have kept me from putting more money into it if it may not help the problem. But i know im in the wrong place if i am gonna be a tight wad.

When you get your lift installed you should update if the worn out suspension was indeed the core of the wandering problem.

shocks/struts are bad.