What do Toyota owners want?

[Dalko43]

This topic, in one form or another, has likely been brought up on this forum. And perhaps my timing on this issue is somewhat random, but I figured I would start it off and see where it goes.

Between VW's diesel-gate and a general trend away from traditional body-on-frame (BOF) to crossovers, it seems that car manufacturers are less and less inclined nowadays to make real hardcore, off-road oriented vehicles (think Toyota 70 series Troopy still made in Australia, or the recently-discontinued Land Rover Defender). I'm talking about BOF, solid axles front and rear, front and rear differential lockers, true 4wd with transfer case, and diesel engines.

Of course some car makers (in the US) like Jeep, still cater to the off-road crowd with the Wrangler JK, though it still hasn't received a diesel (there is a rumor that might change soon).

And it seems that diesel engines have seen a revival of sorts in certain segments here in the US: just about all the mid and large-sized pickups offer some sort of diesel; and there are many passenger cars and crossovers (think Audi's, VW's, and Land Rovers and even the Jeep Grand Cherokee) that have diesel engine offerings.

Yet for some reason, diesels have still eluded the one segment where they would likely have the greatest reception here in the US: mid-sized BOF SUV's, which at this point includes only the Jeep JK (already mentioned) and the Toyota 4runner. For argument's sake, I guess we could also include the few remaining small-sized pickup's too: Toyota Tacoma; Nissan Frontier; and Chevy Colorado (latter two are supposed to be getting diesels in the near future).

Just thinking about putting a diesel engine into my 4runner gets me daydreaming: gobs of torque and grunt to tow a whole range of loads or to power up steep terrain; prolonged engine life; better fuel economy. If diesels were to make a true comeback here in the US, you'd think it would start in this segment, which caters to off-road enthusiasts, rural working types, and people who like to travel and explore.

Maybe I am wrong in my assumption. So that's why I put this poll together. If you had the money and the ability to buy a brand new 4runner (think of it as the new and revised 6th gen), which of these listed options would you choose?

Edit: For the sake of context, when I refer to a an optional gas engine, think of a 3.5 or 4.0L V6, naturally aspirated engine with something like 300hp and 270lb-ft. When I refer to a diesel engine, think of a modern inline 4 cylinder or V-6 turbo-diesel, with somewhere around 250hp and 390lb-ft.

 

[jdtaylor42]

Honestly I don't think I have the experience with diesel's to say for sure. I have a Wrangler TJ and LOVED the articulation of the solid front axle but it was far from a joy on the highway. I very much prefer the on-road manners of the 4R to the Jeep and am willing to sacrifice the flex I got from the TJ for that ride comfort.

However that could have been more a Jeep thing than a solid axle thing. I also have a 3/4 ton Ford with solid axle and that thing rides very well on-road.

I would definitely love a diesel option though. A turbo six sounds just right!

So based on personal experiences thus far, I would say IFS Diesel.

 

[1engineer]

Unfortunately you are asking this question to about 1/2 of one percent of the typical target group. If you want to know what the results of your survey would be, if presented to all (or a cross section) the potential buyers and current owners of this type of vehicle, then just drive down to the local Toyota or Jeep dealer. What they currently offer is what the majority of people want. Sorry but it's true. They are in business to make money, plain and simple. You can never make money offering vehicles that the customers don't want.

 

[KidVermicious]

... off-road enthusiasts, rural working types, and people who like to travel and explore.

You are wrong in several assumptions. The first one is assuming that the majority of people who look for the above in a vehicle are the sort of people who are buying those vehicles new off the lot.

You can have a factory Toyota with solid axles and a dead-nuts reliable fuel-efficient gasoline engine, or even a factory diesel if you look. You just can't have it new.

 

[dekeman]

You can have a factory Toyota with solid axles and a dead-nuts reliable fuel-efficient gasoline engine, or even a factory diesel if you look. You just can't have it new.

Indeed, and I'd prefer my Toyota diesel to be old.

 

[Dalko43]

Unfortunately you are asking this question to about 1/2 of one percent of the typical target group. If you want to know what the results of your survey would be, if presented to all (or a cross section) the potential buyers and current owners of this type of vehicle, then just drive down to the local Toyota or Jeep dealer.

Unfortunately, I can't ask this question to all Toyota owners; I can only ask those owners who frequent this site. And IMO, I don't think Toyota has really given its customer base a chance to express their collective opinion on this.

Ever since the 80 series went away, the offering (whether in the 4runner or land cruiser form) has remained a BOF, IFS, Solid rear, with gas engine...and that's all Toyota owners have ever bought.

You are wrong in several assumptions. The first one is assuming that the majority of people who look for the above in a vehicle are the sort of people who are buying those vehicles new off the lot.

I am assuming a lot here, I even admitted as much. Though, it's hard for any person, including you and me, to say for certain what Toyota owners would and would not buy brand new; the only option they've offered since the late 90's has been a setup with IFS, solid rear axle, gas engine.

I would also disagree that there is no market demand for brand new vehicles with 2 solid axles...Jeep JK sales seem to be doing fairly well. And there has been a huge demand in that crowd for a diesel option.

You can have a factory Toyota with solid axles and a dead-nuts reliable fuel-efficient gasoline engine, or even a factory diesel if you look. You just can't have it new.

Disagree strongly with that statement.

Saying a 15 year old + 80 series or hilux/4runner is going to dead-nuts reliable at this point simply isn't realistic IMO. You're going to have maintenance issues with vehicles at that age, regardless of manufacturer.

And the whole reason I put this poll together is due to the fact that you can't buy these types of vehicles brand new from Toyota (at least not here in the US).

 

[KidVermicious]

Saying an old 15 year + 80 series or hilux/4runner is going to dead-nuts reliable at this point simply isn't realistic IMO. You're going to maintenance issues with vehicles at that age, regardless of manufacturer.

For guys that are willing to put in the time to maintain them, they are indeed very reliable. Again, those aren't the sorts of folks dropping 30k plus on a new vehicle to abuse.

What Greg is trying to tell you is absolutely correct. We can argue about the reasons all day, but the fact is that very highly paid market researchers who are very good at what they do have determined that Toyota will make the most money selling what they currently sell. It has not escaped their notice that there is a minority of potential owners who want solid axles and shit. It has also not escaped their notice that that is a very small minority, and the actual uptake if they did try to sell such a rig here in the States would be even smaller. Toyota is very damned good at what they do, which is make money by selling vehicles, but they have a limited amount of vehicles they can make and put on market. They're going to make and put on market the vehicles that make them the most money. There's nothing else to it.

You keep referencing Jeep, but that's a whole 'nuther bucket of fish. Toyota sells vehicles because they have a reputation for reliability. Jeep sells vehicles because they have a reputation for offroadyness. If Jeep didn't keep the Wrangler on the market and at an attractive price, they'd rapidly lose that rep and wouldn't be able to sell shit. For Jeep (AKA Dodge/Chrysler), the Wrangler was a loss leader, sold for image purposes. With Fiat at the helm, a company with much huger volumes, it'll be interesting to see if Jeep as a brand even registers as part of their corporate strategy. I'm guessing they'll finish the job Dodge/Chrysler started, namely milk it dry and toss it when they're done.

 

[Dalko43]

Indeed, and I'd prefer my Toyota diesel to be old.

Sure looks like it. How much did you pay for that? Any kind of work been put into it?

 

[Dalko43]

For guys that are willing to put in the time to maintain them, they are indeed very reliable.

Unless we are perhaps talking about a thorough, and expensive, restoration, these old trucks aren't going to have same reliability as a new truck.

You keep referencing Jeep, but that's a whole 'nuther bucket of fish. Toyota sells vehicles because they have a reputation for reliability. Jeep sells vehicles because they have a reputation for offroadyness. If Jeep didn't keep the Wrangler on the market and at an attractive price, they'd rapidly lose that rep and wouldn't be able to sell shit.

If reliability were Toyota's only concern, it would only sell Corollas and Highlanders.

And no the Jeep is not another bucket of fish. I find that it appeals to a lot of the same crowds as does the 4runner.

The 4runner does have a focus on off-road utility and ruggedness, much like Jeep. And despite the fact that these Toyota owners could easily buy a crossover SUV that has much better fuel economy, ride comfort and handling, they still choose to buy 4runners.

There is still a huge demand in this country for rugged offroad-oriented vehicles.

That's why vehicles like the 4runner and Jeep sell.

That's why people are willing to buy old 60 and 80 series land cruiser (or old defenders and land rovers) and put tens of thousands of $ into restoring/rebuilding and maintaining them.

 

[KidVermicious]

Ok, I'm done here. Lemme know when Akio Toyoda calls you up for marketing advice.

 

[Dalko43]

Ok, I'm done here.

Thanks for that! I was kind of hoping to hear a variety of opinions on this topic.

The poll results so far indicate that there are a variety of opinions.

 

[Ron4RNevada]

Having come from the solid axle, off roading, Land Rover crowd (Defender and Discovery) the same things were always being asked over there.

95% of Land Rover buyers are the same as 95% of Toyota buyers: Urban resident mall crawlers -

 

[02SE]

What I want, is never going to be available in this Country. A 76 series Landcruiser, with the V8 Turbodiesel, solid axles, manual transmission, and front and rear locking diffs.

 

[flyinhawaiian01]

Dalko, you seem to think that Toyota is in the business of building vehicles for a small niche market, they are not.

They have number crunchers and statisticians that research every detail of the market and what will produce the most profit with the least amount of expenditures, its what most business models look like.

And to solidify this notion, folks all over the world have been begging for the Supra to return to Toyota's line of vehicles for the past 13 years since it was pulled from their lineup in '02! There have been many, MANY grand-touring sports cars from all the other manufacturers over this time, yet Toyota has not released anything to feed that "niche".

Yes, they have released several LEXUS vehicles, but you have to look at the cost and market for those vehicles. They themselves said it was unprofitable to build and market the LFA, and there was no way for them to make it under the toyota name.

Same goes here for any other type of 4 runner in america. There's too much money required for them to manufacture a diesel in America, even though they have diesels all over the world! Its just too expensive to get EPA to allow this in America, their numbers just don't show a positive flow to create such a beast, let alone install it into a semi luxury SUV, who's target market is mainly soccer moms! Sorry, but I don't see mom's cruisin' the mall, toting their kids around to sports practice and other places, then pullin' in to fill them up with diesel fuel!

The Tundra? Yeah, I can see it, and Toyota has shown interest in doing so, just not quite yet. The 4 runner? Seriously doubt it, as that's a well-established SUV that's built for touring and day-to-day commuting. And while most people HERE wish it were a trail beast or weekend trail warrior, the fact remains that its just a 4 wheel drive SUV that's got a great reputation of being reliable and comfortable, neither of which fit the picture with a straight axle and/or diesel.

For me? Sure! I'd love to see a straight axle diesel 4 runner! Would I own one? Naww, I'll keep my straight axle truck for the real offroad duties and drive my 4 runner daily! It really is comfy to drive when I take off for installations and such, and it holds everything I need to take with me when I work at RV dealerships weekly.

 

[Lexusbstrdchild]

I like the idea of a turbocharged diesel, but before they put all of the smog equipment they have on new diesels. It's really out of hand all of the shite they put on new diesels now. Just more issues down the road to deal with, and more maintenance to do. The idea of a diesel is more romanticized than anything, it won't happen.

 

[Mistaken]

I see no option for pizza. And for that reason, I'm out.

 

[Dalko43]

Dalko, you seem to think that Toyota is in the business of building vehicles for a small niche market, they are not.

They have number crunchers and statisticians that research every detail of the market and what will produce the most profit with the least amount of expenditures, its what most business models look like.

And to solidify this notion, folks all over the world have been begging for the Supra to return to Toyota's line of vehicles for the past 13 years since it was pulled from their lineup in '02! There have been many, MANY grand-touring sports cars from all the other manufacturers over this time, yet Toyota has not released anything to feed that "niche".

Yes, they have released several LEXUS vehicles, but you have to look at the cost and market for those vehicles. They themselves said it was unprofitable to build and market the LFA, and there was no way for them to make it under the toyota name.

Same goes here for any other type of 4 runner in america. There's too much money required for them to manufacture a diesel in America, even though they have diesels all over the world! Its just too expensive to get EPA to allow this in America, their numbers just don't show a positive flow to create such a beast, let alone install it into a semi luxury SUV, who's target market is mainly soccer moms! Sorry, but I don't see mom's cruisin' the mall, toting their kids around to sports practice and other places, then pullin' in to fill them up with diesel fuel!

The Tundra? Yeah, I can see it, and Toyota has shown interest in doing so, just not quite yet. The 4 runner? Seriously doubt it, as that's a well-established SUV that's built for touring and day-to-day commuting. And while most people HERE wish it were a trail beast or weekend trail warrior, the fact remains that its just a 4 wheel drive SUV that's got a great reputation of being reliable and comfortable, neither of which fit the picture with a straight axle and/or diesel.

For me? Sure! I'd love to see a straight axle diesel 4 runner! Would I own one? Naww, I'll keep my straight axle truck for the real offroad duties and drive my 4 runner daily! It really is comfy to drive when I take off for installations and such, and it holds everything I need to take with me when I work at RV dealerships weekly.

There are quite a few things I am inclined to address in that post, but for the sake of brevity, I'll only address 2 issues:

1) Putting an EPA-compliant diesel in a Toyota truck is not impractical....Ford, Chevy, Dodge, and Nissan have found a way to put one in their pickups. VW, Audi, BMW, Land Rover, and Jeep have found a way to put one in their sedan and crossover lineups (all of which cater to the soccer mom crowd more so than the 4runner does). If all those companies can find a way and justification to put a diesel into what are essentially tame crossovers and sedans designed for daily commutes, I'm sure Toyota could find a way to put a diesel in the 4runner without ruining its everyday practicality and on-road civility....and besides, if someone's vehicular priorities are on-road civility and comfort, there are slue of other vehicles they should consider before getting a 4runner. The 4runner's reputation, as well as the Land Cruiser's, was built on ruggedness and utility, not comfort and refinement....Toyota has Lexus for that.

2) What straight axle truck (I assume you were referring to a pickup) out on the market can even compete with the 4runner when it comes to offroading or back-country trips? All those big trucks were designed for towing and hauling, not for exploring narrow, winding dirt tracks in the middle of the wilderness. Sure those trucks can be used to do some offroading and/or exploring, but with their size, weight and mediocre fuel economy, they wouldn't be my first choice. The only double axle, BOF truck/SUV designed with that kind of stuff in mind is the Jeep, which IMO appeals to much of the same crowd as the 4runner.

 

[cjacob316]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think speculative posts about future generations truly belong in the 5th gen section. They seem better suited for the "General Discussion" or "Polls" subsections.

 

[Osmith]

A grenade launcher would be nice doesn't mean I need it or Toyota will supply it.

 

[RedMagik]

Let me put it this way......I was really really really close to buying a Grand Cherokee Ecodiesel. Even when I was at the dealer I had to cut the sales staff, including the finance manger short on when they tried to up sell the car when compared to a 4Runner (owned a 2010 Limited already at the time and was very happy with it) when I told them "look I'm here for the engine and the engine alone, I wouldn't be talking with you if it wasn't for that."