Winch electrical setup, fuse/switch options

[4Reak Show]

I chose "off-roading" as theoretically those who have winches would be off-roading, so if this needs to go to off-topic, move as you see fit mods...

Now to the meat of it:

To my knowledge most winches are wired directly to the battery at all times. This is made even more dangerous as they don't come with any form of fuse or circuit breaker or at least mine didn't.

So if something were to short circuit, you'd fry your battery at best, and burn down the truck at worst.

And another danger is always the possibility of a "runaway winch" where the solenoid internally sticks or welds together causing the winch motor to continue to run even if the triggering mechanism is unplugged.

Both of these scenarios were incredibly terrifying and bothersome to me so I went about solving it and I wanted to share what I did as a double safety.

I mounted an RV style shut off switch rated at 600 amps "intermittently" which means 5 minutes at a time. $40 on eBay. Blue Sea 9003e is the model. This allows for the power supply to the solenoid pack to be turned off at will in seconds from under the hood in the case of an emergency and also allows you to leave it off and essentially disconnected while not it use.

I also ran a 500 amp fuse of "ANL" style and that comes directly off the battery and feeds the input to the switch above. Covered it up with some basic battery terminal rubber covers and zip ties. Also bought a 3 pack of these fuses which I will keep in the glove box. Just 2 1/2" nuts and the fuse can be replaced if it pops.

Here's the kicker for my setup: the fuse should NEVER pop unless there is a DEAD SHORT somewhere when the winch becomes energized. So if you want to go this route (which I can't recommend enough) just read what your winch draws at max. For example my winch is rated to pull 435 amps at absolute maximum. Which is a hard value to achieve unless you're really getting nutty out there. So I bumped it up to 500 so the winch itself should never blow the fuse. Only a dead short in the event a cable rubs thru or you get in an accident or something.

Another concern folks might have with the switch I chose is that 5 minute 600 amp rating.. Think about it. 5 continuous minutes is a long time. That's 300 seconds. The likelihood you'd be running your winch at maximum for a continuous 5 minutes seems very unlikely to me, but please correct me if I'm wrong. It's rated for 300 or 350 amps continuous so really, this switch should be able to handle the winch and probably most winches for similar weight ratings. Mine is a 9500 lb winch.

What you end up with a safe and easy way to hook a winch up and have peace of mind. All in, about $60-70 depending on how you want to mount and run cables and stuff.

Hoping to bring awareness to an often under thought setup that can be very dangerous.

Any questions or suggestions, let me know please!

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[fourwd1]

You make a lot of important points that few would think of.
When i installedmy winch I too wanted it isolated .
I just happened to have some 500A capacity Anderson Power Pole connectors handy and choose them as my mechanical disconnect.

 

[fourwd1]

You make a lot of important points that few would think of.
When i installedmy winch I too wanted it isolated .
I just happened to have some 500A capacity Anderson Power Pole connectors handy and choose them as my mechanical disconnect.

 

[Industrialwrench]

sorry but what you’ve done is very strange. A 600amp switch sitting under your hood is only a switch. It’s not going to turn off after 5mins of 600amps, it’s going to melt... All you’ve done is add another point of failure. Short circuit protection is always needed. This falls under the, “have installed by a qualified technician”. So I’m pretty sure the winch manufactures are protected from liability. Everything that uses electricity needs protection. The appropriate fuse size should be in the owners manual. You also need the appropriate wire cable size, among other things. Short circuit protection is very simple to size, just do it specifically to the application or it’s wrong. The switch isn’t even a redundancy. If you wanted isolation and short circuit protection you’d install a breaker or a fusable disconnect.

 

[4Reak Show]

Winch electrical safety

I think you misunderstand my intent. The switch is there to allow me to have control while the winch isn't in use or there's an electrical issue that limits my control. It cuts off power directly after the fuse. Therefore if there were to be an issue where the winch solenoid sticks on (called a runaway winch) and it starts to crush itself, I can simply flip a switch. That is safer and quicker than fumbling to remove a battery cable.

Here's a quick diagram of what I did. The dotted line was what I added. You'll notice it's set up just like any other basic circuit just has bigger capacity components.

My statement of switch rating was to verify the switch would be able to handle the winch's basic operation, even at maximum pull. Obviously the switch is for CONTROL. Fuse is for PROTECTION.

And the fuse is the first thing in the chain. I also repurposed all cables that came with the winch since I remote mounted my solenoid and used new, longer cables where needed.

The install instructions showed a basic user nothing in the way of fusing. Just said to hook it up directly to the battery. I chose otherwise and hoped to share for others who may not be as electrically aware as I am.

I appreciate your concern and informative meaning, but I truely think there was a misunderstanding of my intent. No apology needed

 

[Industrialwrench]

So You’re telling me you do most of your winching with the hood up? Come on. You should have installed a dc breaker rated for what your talking about. A single component to do what you’re dreaming up. The switch is basically useless. And to top it off you bought it from eBay. Not a wise choice for any electronics since you don’t know if it’s seen high current. You’ve titled the thread winch safety but you seem to lack electrical engineering skills. You’ve installed a kill switch and put an oversized fuse that won’t protect the device. Your diagram is cute though, might want to change solenoid to relay, and show d/c power instead of 3 phase a/c....I’m not sorry

 

[4Reak Show]

Winch electrical safety

So You’re telling me you do most of your winching with the hood up? Come on. You should have installed a dc breaker rated for what your talking about. A single component to do what you’re dreaming up. The switch is basically useless. And to top it off you bought it from eBay. Not a wise choice for any electronics since you don’t know if it’s seen high current. You’ve titled the thread winch safety but you seem to lack electrical engineering skills. You’ve installed a kill switch and put an oversized fuse that won’t protect the device. Your diagram is cute though, might want to change solenoid to relay, and show d/c power instead of 3 phase a/c....I’m not sorry

You're clearly smarter, better, faster stronger and bigger than me.

I can't wait to see your custom winch setup.

Keep in mind I was only sharing. Zero belittling, zero judgement. Honestly only trying to inform.

How this could have gone in a very non-a$$hole way: "hey man, a circuit breaker would have accomplished both these goals as well"

To which I would reply "yes this is true. I opted for a more elaborate setup but the same goal is still achieved: over current protection as well as quick ability for a manual disconnect without having to rip off battery cables"

Have a good day. And feel free to contribute constructively whenever you'd like.

Ps: you're right. Amazon is a way better place to shop than eBay. No chance of getting brand new stuff there. Good call.

Here's the actual winch manual. This page is titled SOLENOID mounting supplement. (Notice how it doesn't say RELAY?)

And here's a picture of the FOUR WIRES GOING TO MY DC WINCH. Also the diagram from the manual. Not 3 phase AC.

 

[4Reak Show]

Winch electrical safety

Master disconnect allows me to control this:

Freaky Winch runaway | IH8MUD Forum

And this:

Winch wont stop winching when pulling in - Australian 4WD Action | Forum

And this

Winch Problem - International Forum - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum

And this

Smittybilt solenoid problems - Toyota FJ Cruiser Forum

It looks like there are cases where a winch solenoid contact can, and has been stuck in the ON position, regardless of what position the trigger is in... Even sometimes when the trigger is even fully disconnected! Therefore the only way to stop it is to disconnect the main feed from the battery... In my opinion it is easier to open the hood and turn a knob counterclockwise 90 degrees rather than dig out a wrench, open the hood and undo a battery cable, all while the winch in winding itself in, unstoppable otherwise! Keep in mind, the winch can only pull a maximum of 435 amps, so my fuse wouldn't blow under that particular condition.

Now for a fuse explanation for those that think it's "oversized":

MY winch CAN pull 435 amps under maximum. Therefore, if I picked a 300 or 400 amp fuse, that could blow even though there is no short. So I need a fuse that WOULDNT blow under normal conditions, but WOULD blow of there was a dead short, as in a wire rubbed thru the frame and I didn't know it. The fuse would blow instead of pumping the 1000 amps from my battery melting and catching fire.

makes perfect sense. Maybe your ego has a hard time understanding this. It's pretty basic electrical knowledge and if you need more explanation or have any actual questions let me know.

 

[Industrialwrench]

Keep making unsafe decisions and posting them on the internet. I tried to tell you in a nice way, but you don’t understand. The oversized fuse will not protect you, and the switch is not going to be accessible during an issue. Don’t post “safety” advice you’re not qualified to give...

 

[4Reak Show]

Keep making unsafe decisions and posting them on the internet. I tried to tell you in a nice way, but you don’t understand. The oversized fuse will not protect you, and the switch is not going to be accessible during an issue. Don’t post “safety” advice you’re not qualified to give...

Adding a fuse is unsafe? Can you elaborate? Seriously man. I want to be educated.

All you've done is judge quite harshly like a typical keyboard warrior and offered ZERO technical data to back it up. So far it's been:
It's unsafe, it won't work, it does nothing.

If a light bulb pulls 4 amps, you'd install a 5 amp fuse, before the switch on the main power feed side, correct? Because a 3 amp fuse would blow under normal operating conditions (the bulb CAN pull 4 amps). How is this any different? Except my "light bulb" is a winch that pulls 400 amps.

And don't come back with some more BS. If you're more qualified than me, use some actual electrical nomenclature. Not just the basic "it won't do anything". How is a DC breaker as you've suggested any less of a failure point? Doesn't it have moving parts? Doesn't it have a set point at which it opens the main power feed of given circuit? Again, SERIOUSLY ASKING so I can become educated by someone who apparently knows more.

If you're going to chime in "in a nice way" back it up with some technical info. What a useless way to ruin a thread. Typical.

 

[Industrialwrench]

Oversizing a fuse is unsafe every time. Figuring out what size fuse to use is where you need to know what you’re doing. To small and it will pop because it was engineered wrong. To large and it won’t protect anything and becomes a potential for fire risk. This is for any electrical component. It’s also information that you can easily look up, if you know what to look up. The fuse you installed if sized appropriately would protect against all the issues you have listed without the need for a kill switch. Every added component inline will cause an increase of load, at best. To accomplish what you’re trying to achieve safest, cleanest, least chance for issues (now or future) is a dc breaker that will Isolate the circuit if not wanted and protect against over current. I don’t think I’ve added any new information, but this clearly states what the issues is and why. What you’ve done is not the best way to do things, take an objective approach to the information listed. Maybe if the thread was called something other than “winch safety”...

 

[Bumbo]

[MENTION=127339]4Reak Show[/MENTION]

There are certain instances where a breaker could fail… In a high current dead short, it is possible to weld the contacts of a breaker in an on position. Most breakers on the market are thermal devices… they blow based on heat. It’s good to remember, where a breaker will fail, a fuse would not.

With that out of the way, the main point of a fuse should be to protect the wiring / infrastructure of the truck. The fuse should be sized to protect the weakest component in the chain. It’s also worth mentioning that a 5 amp fuse, doesn’t blow at 5 amps. It should be able to carry a 5A load RMS. Where the fuse blows is part of the fuse design… including how fast or slow it breaks the circuit.

Just as an example, here is a video I made for another forum where people build battery packs… I was testing a 3A fuse for other members to see if it would be suitable for the application. It consistently blows at 5 amps… that’s 40% more power than stamped on the fuse. Hypothetically, if your fuse was anything alike, a 400 amp fuse might actually blow at 560 amps with a ramped load.

YouTube

If you need to do an emergency break of a high current circuit under load… you want to use a contactor. That can be triggered using either a current clamp to trigger it, or a couple emergency off push buttons located in strategic places.

Either way, a fuse is not a reliably way to stop a run-away winch… there is a chance it could creative significant damage before it even reaches the point it would flow a fuse. If you want to get a better idea of actual real world loads during winching, you must measure it with a current clamp in use. Under sizing would only create problems during actual use, and oversizing would negate any protections to the vehicle wiring and winch itself. The fuse is there to protect from catastrophe electrical even like an internal short or wiring issue which would have otherwise resulted in a vehicle fire or electrical damage.

 

[Bumbo]

I just happened to have some 500A capacity Anderson Power Pole connectors handy and choose them as my mechanical disconnect.

This...

1) I love Anderson Power Pole connectors.
2) They are extremely convenient as a high current disconnect.

OP, you could just have one available near the winch or mounted to the bumper as the main power connection for the winch. In an emergency, you could easily just yank on it to disconnect.

Alternately, you could use it for other things... Like make one end of your jumper cable an Anderson disconnect, which allows you to jump someone without opening your hood. Or connect / power large current items safely... like a portable inverter or something like that.

Anderson Powerpole and SB Connectors | Powerwerx

SB350 SB Series 350 Amp Anderson Powerpole Kit | Powerwerx

SB350 SB Series Connector Handle Kit with Hardware | Powerwerx

 

[4Reak Show]

Winch electrical safety

[MENTION=144483]Bumbo[/MENTION]

[MENTION=127339]4Reak Show[/MENTION]

If you need to do an emergency break of a high current circuit under load… you want to use a contactor.....

Either way, a fuse is not a reliably way to stop a run-away winch… there is a chance it could creative significant damage before it even reaches the point it would flow a fuse.

Again, I'm using the fuse for PROTECTION ONLY, and the giant switch is for the runaway CONTROL ONLY. Both designed for this exact purpose to my knoweldge.

Thanks. And I totally agree. The purpose of my fused application, again, is to stop a DEAD SHORT and save the battery/electrical system from releasing the battery's 1,000 amps into the frame. So I still think my fuse is correct. It's rated slightly higher than basic circuit operation, yet NOT higher than the entire battery system.

As for a contactor, that's what the big marine style switch does. It's just mechanical. I could have gone with a solenoid or relay or motor driven switch, but to me, having a solid mechanical switch seemed like a more fool-proof idea.

If you were to design a winch circuit and didn't want to just connect to a battery, how would you have done it? I'm seriously asking to see if m system could be improved upon. For mine, the switch itself should NEVER burn out as it's rated far higher than the 500amp fuse. Again, my fuse IS the weak link, which is what a fuse ought to be, correct? Providing normally operation flawlessly, even at maximum pull, even during a runaway winch scenario, yet still small enough to open the circuit should a dead short occur. The switch is there for me to be able to turn off the entire circuit by cutting power flow to the solenoid pack should there be a sticking solenoid situation.

I also agree a breaker COULD work, but I'd rather have a fuse so if there is a short, there's no way that fuse lasts and the circuit is safely opened on the battery positive side.

 

[Bumbo]

[MENTION=127339]4Reak Show[/MENTION]

I really try not to get involved with other peoples wiring setups, design, and engineering... but...

1) What is the size of the wire you are using
2) What is the length of the longest wire run
3) What size fuse did you select (500A?)
4) What is the design load (max load for the winch component on the spec sheet)

 

[4Reak Show]

[MENTION=127339]4Reak Show[/MENTION]



I really try not to get involved with other peoples wiring setups, design, and engineering... but...



1) What is the size of the wire you are using

2) What is the length of the longest wire run

3) What size fuse did you select (500A?)

4) What is the design load (max load for the winch component on the spec sheet)

I appreciare that but I'm sincerely trying to help people.

1) wires are the same size that came with the winch. Something around 2 gauge or 1/0.

2)Same length that came with the winch, about 5.5-6'

3) correct. 500a ANL Fuse

4)maximum winch draw is advertised at 435 max. Probably a lot less during lighter pulls. But 435 is advertised as the most it's capable of pulling

 

[Industrialwrench]

[MENTION=127339]4Reak Show[/MENTION]

There are certain instances where a breaker could fail… In a high current dead short, it is possible to weld the contacts of a breaker in an on position. Most breakers on the market are thermal devices… they blow based on heat. It’s good to remember, where a breaker will fail, a fuse would not.

With that out of the way, the main point of a fuse should be to protect the wiring / infrastructure of the truck. The fuse should be sized to protect the weakest component in the chain. It’s also worth mentioning that a 5 amp fuse, doesn’t blow at 5 amps. It should be able to carry a 5A load RMS. Where the fuse blows is part of the fuse design… including how fast or slow it breaks the circuit.

Just as an example, here is a video I made for another forum where people build battery packs… I was testing a 3A fuse for other members to see if it would be suitable for the application. It consistently blows at 5 amps… that’s 40% more power than stamped on the fuse. Hypothetically, if your fuse was anything alike, a 400 amp fuse might actually blow at 560 amps with a ramped load.

YouTube

If you need to do an emergency break of a high current circuit under load… you want to use a contactor. That can be triggered using either a current clamp to trigger it, or a couple emergency off push buttons located in strategic places.

Either way, a fuse is not a reliably way to stop a run-away winch… there is a chance it could creative significant damage before it even reaches the point it would flow a fuse. If you want to get a better idea of actual real world loads during winching, you must measure it with a current clamp in use. Under sizing would only create problems during actual use, and oversizing would negate any protections to the vehicle wiring and winch itself. The fuse is there to protect from catastrophe electrical even like an internal short or wiring issue which would have otherwise resulted in a vehicle fire or electrical damage.

anything can happen, but an appropriate sized breaker that is used as a breaker and not an on/off switch (while power is engaged) will most likely fail open. If it fails. But sure a fuse Is a sure bet for failing open. Fuses also function based on heat by the way. I’ve now looked up the owners manual for his listed winch models posted in this thread. Not the best installation guide, but it does list expected current based on load. The only reason I’m suggesting a breaker is due to his wanting to isolate while not in use. The only thing needed for a safe circuit is appropriate fusing, and wire/connector size. the only reason I chimed in is because he posted a guess at the appropriate fuse, and titled it electrical safety. Fuses come in fractional sizes so throwing an extra 65amps at it is not well thought out. It should say directly on the motor what it’s rated for, apart from the manual. “Should”. I don’t know which model he has, and don’t really care anymore at this point. I maybe didn’t breast feed the info to him, but dudes a grown man. Maybe you’ll have better luck explaining why an oversized fuse is always a bad idea.

 

[Bumbo]

Maybe you’ll have better luck explaining why an oversized fuse is always a bad idea.

I thought my video example did a good job of explaining that… it showed a 3A fuse requiring 40% more current than rated to blow in 9-10 seconds.

If you were to apply the same 10 seconds of overcurrent to a 500 amp ANL you would need about 200% more current than rated. Meaning it could pass about 1000 amps +/- for 10 seconds before it blows.

Even to blow in 1 second it’s going to pass about 1600 to 2000 amps of current.

The potential for components damage is likely in this setup. For example, you could permanently damage the winch from a over current condition or low voltage pull before blowing a fuse.

That said, I understand his though process and methodology in what he did and why he did it, but yes, there is more to fuse sizing than just picking a value.

 

[4Reak Show]

Winch electrical safety

I thought my video example did a good job of explaining that… it showed a 3A fuse requiring 40% more current than rated to blow in 9-10 seconds.

If you were to apply the same 10 seconds of overcurrent to a 500 amp ANL you would need about 200% more current than rated. Meaning it could pass about 1000 amps +/- for 10 seconds before it blows.

Even to blow in 1 second it’s going to pass about 1600 to 2000 amps of current.

The potential for components damage is likely in this setup. For example, you could permanently damage the winch from a over current condition or low voltage pull before blowing a fuse.

That said, I understand his though process and methodology in what he did and why he did it, but yes, there is more to fuse sizing than just picking a value.

Now THIS is helpful. Full of actual facts and thoughts instead of arrogant insults. I will now downsize my fuse to something smaller to accommodate my desired affect. Numerically, it worked out, however the performance rating turns out to be vastly different than the actual value. This is interesting.

I'm also going to guess that someone down the road may find it useful that the number stamped on the side of a fuse does not guarantee its determined performance. Thank you for this. When information is delivered in a respectful and scientific manor backed up facts it tends to be accepted more readily.

 

[4Reak Show]

Winch electrical safety

anything can happen, but an appropriate sized breaker that is used as a breaker and not an on/off switch (while power is engaged) will most likely fail open. If it fails. But sure a fuse Is a sure bet for failing open. Fuses also function based on heat by the way. I’ve now looked up the owners manual for his listed winch models posted in this thread. Not the best installation guide, but it does list expected current based on load. The only reason I’m suggesting a breaker is due to his wanting to isolate while not in use. The only thing needed for a safe circuit is appropriate fusing, and wire/connector size. the only reason I chimed in is because he posted a guess at the appropriate fuse, and titled it electrical safety. Fuses come in fractional sizes so throwing an extra 65amps at it is not well thought out. It should say directly on the motor what it’s rated for, apart from the manual. “Should”. I don’t know which model he has, and don’t really care anymore at this point. I maybe didn’t breast feed the info to him, but dudes a grown man. Maybe you’ll have better luck explaining why an oversized fuse is always a bad idea.

All you had to say was "the numerical value stamped on a fuse doesn't necessarily determine its capacity to open a circuit" and then drop a link or whatever.

You opted to come off significantly more pompous than needed. Your information can and will help someone, so I would suggest in the future to work on your delivery. And there may come a day where you don't know something. Humility isn't the end of the world.