Winch electrical setup, fuse/switch options

[4Reak Show]

The potential for components damage is likely in this setup.

I wanted to ask: is it any more dangerous than no fuse at all? Since the factory manual shows no fuse whatsoever. I understand the sizing my exceed my battery's potential and may be "useless" but isn't some fuse better than no fuse at all?

 

[Bumbo]

I wanted to ask: is it any more dangerous than no fuse at all? Since the factory manual shows no fuse whatsoever. I understand the sizing my exceed my battery's potential and may be "useless" but isn't some fuse better than no fuse at all?

No, it’s not any more dangerous really. An oversized fuse would be similar to not having one at all.

If someone is going to ask me a blanket statement question: Should I always fuse?, I am going to say yes. A fuse is like insurance… it’s generally better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

I have projects where I have not fused in certain areas, where the battery run is either very short or heavily protected or tamper proof with little to no chance of compromise or short. (Home battery bank, static / non-mobile application) I did this as a calculated risk, and to reduce line resistance / sag under load. I have protection (fuse & breaker) at the source load end, not at the battery to battery interconnects.

Winching is one of those weird applications that have a potential for very high peak loads, but are often intermittent or for short duration. I guess it would be possible to blow a fuse during a hard pull which is why they might exclude it.

Remember that voltage also plays a roll in amp draw, ohms law.

Say a winch wants to use 5000 watts at max load…
5000 / 13.8 volts = 362 amps

Lets say you alternator died, and you needed to do the same recovery on just battery alone… sitting at 12.5 volts battery only.
5000 / 12.5 = 400 amps

Let’s say voltage sag was bad… which it probably will be 11.8 volts under load
5000 / 11.8 = 424 amps

See where I am going with this? Manufacture doesn’t know your electrical system, they don’t know if you have HO alternator, dual battery to help with sag under load, running AGM voltages.

If you want my honest opinion, I think they winch manufacture probably excludes a fuse from the diagram because they figure that completing a hard pull even with equipment stress and excess heat is worth no pull at all. The cynic in me would say they don’t want to deal with supporting it or dealing with end user who are having problems. Less calls into support.

Best practices obviously dictates to use one, but with intermittent loads like that, the heat generated probably isn’t going to be catastrophic for a short duration. That said it sure helps to overbuild the winch electrical to support it…

 

[Industrialwrench]

All you had to say was "the numerical value stamped on a fuse doesn't necessarily determine its capacity to open a circuit" and then drop a link or whatever.

You opted to come off significantly more pompous than needed. Your information can and will help someone, so I would suggest in the future to work on your delivery. And there may come a day where you don't know something. Humility isn't the end of the world.

The only person to sling any insult is you dude. Like over and over again. At best I called your bad drawing cute, because it is incorrect and only further shows you don’t fully understand what the circuit is doing, yet are giving advice and posturing. Learn to read text without emotion, and be more objective to the information you read. You’re the individual without an electrical background trying to help the public with electrical advice.

 

[4Reak Show]

The only person to sling any insult is you dude. Like over and over again. At best I called your bad drawing cute, because it is incorrect and only further shows you don’t fully understand what the circuit is doing, yet are giving advice and posturing. Learn to read text without emotion, and be more objective to the information you read. You’re the individual without an electrical background trying to help the public with electrical advice.

Man you sure are something. You realize you've yet to give out one sound piece of "WHY" advice. You just keep saying "WHAT" and have dished out zero "WHY's". So I'll ask: what it wrong my my basic drawing I did? Please show me how it done so I can learn? I'm honestly asking for education so I don't make similar mistakes later on.

 

[Industrialwrench]

Honestly I see why you drew what you did. Controller should be controlling power for both directions and a line of voltage powering the motor. I chuckled about your drawing before seeing the factory one so I now understand why you drew what you did. Not that it’s correct, but whatever. Schematics are difficult to read and appently just as difficult to explain. I think I did the same thing I accused you of by reading emotionally into text. I thought I had explained what and why In my first post and misconstrued your response. I’m turning into a grumpy old man that expects everyone to be one the same wavelength. The best way to learn schematics is an apprenticeship. It’s truly that difficult for most. Aside from that get a reference book ( UGLYs is a good one), multimeter, and some circuits to play with isolated and discharged. Enjoy the winch. You can always use mechanical advantage to increase pulling power without increasing motor load, the increase goes to the anchor points though...

 

[nevada]

I think an easily accessed quick disconnect at the battery makes the most sense. I wouldn't want a fuse inline with my winch. but a good manual breaker would be great.

 

[4Reak Show]

Wanted to thank [MENTION=144483]Bumbo[/MENTION] and [MENTION=257642]Industrialwrench[/MENTION] for educating me.

I've been messing with 12v DC systems for 13+ years and now 110 AC RV systems for over a year. I always knew a fuse could handle more than its rating for a brief duration but I didn't know by HOW MUCH more. And in the case of ANL fuses, average about 150% or more.


Here's a great ANL fuse time vs amp graph

And for all this new info I've gathered, I'm downsizing my winch fuse to a 300 amp. That should provide normal winch operation (since 435 is ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM which is going to be a rare event) and in the case of a dead short (releasing 800-1000 amps from my battery) should blow that fuse in about 1-2 seconds, which is significantly less likely to hurt my battery.

Hope this helps somebody some day. Research research research. Face value isn't always what it seems.

 

[phattyduck]

So You’re telling me you do most of your winching with the hood up? Come on. You should have installed a dc breaker rated for what your talking about. A single component to do what you’re dreaming up. The switch is basically useless. And to top it off you bought it from eBay. Not a wise choice for any electronics since you don’t know if it’s seen high current. You’ve titled the thread winch safety but you seem to lack electrical engineering skills. You’ve installed a kill switch and put an oversized fuse that won’t protect the device. Your diagram is cute though, might want to change solenoid to relay, and show d/c power instead of 3 phase a/c....I’m not sorry

Yeah, it is good you went back and read this again.

The drawing is reasonable/correct. The motor is not 3 phase, but there are 3 'power' wires going to it (two field connections, one armature connection) and a ground. There is such a thing as a solenoid used for power switching (even though it really is the same thing as a relay). He doesn't need to be an electrical engineer either. Fuses and switches aren't rocket surgery...

The point about sizing the fuse is correct though - but without pointing to actual information, somewhat useless. Also, you do want to "oversize" fuses in most applications to avoid any aging effects of the fuse which will change its rating with time (thousands of hours of use). For a highly intermittent use like a winch, it won't be an issue the the new 'lower' rated fuse is probably a good idea. I'd still keep the 500A in the truck, just in case...

-Charlie

 

[Bumbo]

Always carry spares…

I made a basic electrical troubleshooting kit I keep in the truck in case I need it on the trail. It’s a basic DC clamp meter / DMM, wire stripper, butt connectors and assorted crimp ends, crimper, and some OEM and aftermarket fuses in the ranges that apply to my setup. Electrical tape and some other odds and ends.

 

[4Reak Show]

I agree with both above. I'm going to use the 300 as a "standard" fuse and still have a couple spare 500 on hand. But having one blow in the middle of a pull is a scary and irritating thought. Although the 300 blowing would indicate I'm pretty much maxing out the winch and maybe I should reevaluate the situation...

I also don't do hard core crawling at all. If I had a dedicated rig for only off-roading I would probably shy away from a fuse and either use a breaker and switch or nothing. But I like over thinking and over building.

Whenever I get real world tests I'll post updates.

 

[Bumbo]

Although the 300 blowing would indicate I'm pretty much maxing out the winch and maybe I should reevaluate the situation...

I like it, I would approach it in a similar fashion.

 

[4Reak Show]

It's satisfying to spend a lot of time and money on a mod AND use it! First trip out with winch & bumper, and I used it.

My system worked great: popped the hood, turned on master switch for winch, connected control wand to interior port, ran out and attached winch cable, and ran the winch while idling in 4Lo and it pulled it right to solid ground. We didn't go much further as the entire trail was icy slushy snow and only getting worse.

But the winch and electrical additions worked great to pull me out. Nothing got hot or sputtered at all for about a 30-45 second continuous pull.

 

[Akkording]

I bought this Bulldog Winch 500 Amp Shut-Off Switch for my cut off, I haven't seen many Toyotas using it but it will be part of my configuration.

Bulldog Winch 500 Amp Shut-Off Switch - Metal Housing Bulldog Winch Accessories and Parts BDW20248

 

[4Reak Show]

I bought this Bulldog Winch 500 Amp Shut-Off Switch for my cut off, I haven't seen many Toyotas using it but it will be part of my configuration.

Bulldog Winch 500 Amp Shut-Off Switch - Metal Housing Bulldog Winch Accessories and Parts BDW20248

I'm a firm believer of better safe that sorry. A simple addition such as this should give the end user electrical cutoff control should a problem arise. Great add on.

 

[metallitera]

...You can always use mechanical advantage to increase pulling power without increasing motor load, the increase goes to the anchor points though...

The increase goes to all of the mechanical components in the system, not just the anchor point. The anchor, the hardware at the end of the cable, the cable, the winch, the mounting components of the winch, and where the winch is mounted (you could have bullet proof mounting of the winch to the bumper and crappy welds between the bumper and the frame).

I've seen a winch destroyed on one of our brush trucks (it was due to negligence...luckily no one was harmed, maimed, or killed!) that broke the winch cable, broke the gears inside the winch, broke the winch mount and bent the bumper of the truck.

This phenomenon is a huge consideration in the rope rescue realm. Setting up Z-rigs or 4:1 and 5:1 mechanical advantages means you really have to watch what your multiplied load will be compared to the breaking weight of your rope, as it is incredibly easy to destroy your rope with 1 or 2 people pulling when you have enough mechanical advantage. Obviously the weight of a rescuer and victim plus the associated equipment on them will not overcome the rope rating, but you absolutely can do this when setting up complicated rigging for rescues.

Not to mention hos much more cable or rope they will take, and how little movement you get...a 4:1 mechanical advantage will move the load one inch for every 4 inches of rope/cable slack that is pulled.

I think we can all agree that vehicle recovery is just a dangerous business, no matter how you slice it. Whether it is using an electric winch, come-a-long, tow strap, chains, etc.

 

[Direwolf82]

Maybe I'm missing something with the fuse sizing.
Every electrical circuit I've worked on has always been sized the same way for fuses or breakers.
You take the wire size and protect to the amperage rating of the wire.
That way you get the minimum amount of nuisance tripping or blowing fuses and it'll pop on a short circuit.
I would be annoyed if the only thing that stopped me from getting out of a hole was an undersized fuse because I hadn't tested the winch at an extreme recovery. Just because it holds in flat ground in snow doesn't mean it'll hold in a mud hole or on a steep slope after ten minutes of intermittent winching and everything getting hot.
Please correct me if I'm wrong and let's try to stay civil.

 

[4Reak Show]

This is my understanding as well. However, different types of fuses blow differently. So that aspect needs to be considered. Here is a chart for an ANL style fuse for example:

Their actual amperage blow amount exceeds its written rating by quite a bit. Almost double for multiple seconds. My thought process was this: how many seconds are you going to be maxing out a winch? And then when you start thinking about how long 5 seconds actually is, you may realize it's unlikely you'll max it out very frequently for that length of time.

The other thing to consider: an electric motor will pull whatever amps it needs to do the work. Period. It will literally destroy itself or burn up wiring to accomplish the job. (Watts=amps X volts) so however many watts of power it needs to consume for the job will dictate the amount of amps it pulls. I've sized my fuse so that the fuse will pop if I'm nearing the amperage rating for the winch. Meaning: I have a telltale if the winch is at or near its upper limit. So it would be unlikely I would suffer catastrophic electrical opponent failure.

I'm also not a hardcore wheeler. I don't do crazy rock crawling stuff up insane hills. So I know that my winch won't be having to do an extreme amount of work repeatedly. Winches don't come with fuses for a reason. I understand not putting one in. I would still suggest a big fat kill switch however. The idea of having a winch or its solenoid short out and continuous run with no way of stopping it is terrifying to me.

 

[Direwolf82]

After looking at the chart I'm not sure what to say really.
It looks like a 35 amp fuse will allow over a thousand amps to flow before burning out so where do you draw the line?
I'll be sticking with the time tested and industry accepted way of determining fuse size, determined by wire size. There is just no way a double ought cable is going to fry before the fuse does.
I cannot guarantee what, where or how I may get stuck and need the winch to get out and don't want to limit my abilities with an undersized fuse. Maybe a little log bridge collapses and leaves me in a steep creek bed. You never know what's going to happen.
I tend to think of others as well, if I come up to a crash and someone needs to get recovered from a ravine or a deep mud hole then my system will be able to deliver maximum pull. How disappointing would it be for your 9 thousand pound winch to only pull 6 thousand before popping a fuse?
And please try this if you don't believe me, the more strain the winch sees the more amps it wants. Put a fifty amp fuse in it and see what it'll do, not much.
Real world, not charts and graphs since it'll be used in the real world. I would be very interested in seeing what pull your winch develops before blowing the fuse.

Edit: don't forget that start surge can be pretty high, that's why electrical motors have capacitors. High discharge rate to start turning the motor.

To each their own, do what makes you feel safe and comfortable. I just personally don't understand why anyone would limit their ability to self recover or recover someone else.