0-20W oil... Is it an absolute requirement?

[ZO6_Vette]

So you did not like what the manual recommends? Did you really ask what the oil weight requirements were? Did they define harsh conditions?

Did I really ask? Of course I did, Toyota does not respond to my thoughts.

Did they define harsh conditions? No its probably easier to to get a straight answer from a politician, I posted the entire reply sans the names.

There are many opinions concerning oil viscosity selection and they are all a compromise.

Your old post is pretty accurate except for "The differences are small in the temperature ranges our engines operate"
Drive a car hard with an oil temp gauge and you may be surprised.

 

[1engineer]

Did I really ask? Of course I did, Toyota does not respond to my thoughts.

Did they define harsh conditions? No its probably easier to to get a straight answer from a politician, I posted the entire reply sans the names.

There are many opinions concerning oil viscosity selection and they are all a compromise.

Your old post is pretty accurate except for "The differences are small in the temperature ranges our engines operate"
Drive a car hard with an oil temp gauge and you may be surprised.

So do you want to post the viscosity difference of synthetic 0W-20 at 180 degrees vs the same at (driven hard) 250 degrees or do you want me to do it? The answer is not much. That's what I meant about "not knowing the difference."
What temps does your 4Runner operate? Again, with synthetic fluids and a very flat VI, everyone will be fine. And if you are towing through the mountains every day or driving along the Baja peninsula for 1,000 miles yes, I would probably bump it up a bit but for 99.9% of the driving, including offroad, the lubrication level won't change from one spec to the other.

BTW there is quite a bit of difference between a GM and a Toyota engine and the specs for oil should reflect these differences. We actually do have a Toyota mechanical engineer who posts here and I'm sure he would be glad to debate you on the oil specs.

 

[eddiebx]

So do you want to post the viscosity difference of synthetic 0W-20 at 180 degrees vs the same at (driven hard) 250 degrees or do you want me to do it? The answer is not much. That's what I meant about "not knowing the difference."
What temps does your 4Runner operate? Again, with synthetic fluids and a very flat VI, everyone will be fine. And if you are towing through the mountains every day or driving along the Baja peninsula for 1,000 miles yes, I would probably bump it up a bit but for 99.9% of the driving, including offroad, the lubrication level won't change from one spec to the other.

BTW there is quite a bit of difference between a GM and a Toyota engine and the specs for oil should reflect these differences. We actually do have a Toyota mechanical engineer who posts here and I'm sure he would be glad to debate you on the oil specs.

When you say the lubrication level won't change from one spec to the other, do you mean lubrication level between 0w20 and 0w30? Or were you referring to something else?

 

[1engineer]

When you say the lubrication level won't change from one spec to the other, do you mean lubrication level between 0w20 and 0w30? Or were you referring to something else?

Yes it won't change any appreciable amount.

 

[eddiebx]

Yes it won't change any appreciable amount.

Sorry if this is rehashing an argument from before my time here, but if it does not result in a practical difference, then why not just use 0w30 all the time, lol.

EDIT: I mean for those that feel the need to use a thicker oil due to how they use their vehicles.

 

[1engineer]

!

Sorry if this is rehashing an argument from before my time here, but if it does not result in a practical difference, then why not just use 0w30 all the time, lol.

EDIT: I mean for those that feel the need to use a thicker oil due to how they use their vehicles.

So if two beers a day are good for you why not drink a 12 pack a day lol.

Probably you would be OK but you would increase a little risk because of the slightly more viscous (not heavier bow tie boy) 30 in super cold start applications. I know for a fact that the 20 will cover you from the North Slope to Mexico and everywhere in between. The 30 will PROBABLY do that too but do you want to be the one showing receipts of 30 oil to Toyota after you described your mundane driving conditions to try to get warranty on a blown engine? Me either so 20 it is! A slight efficiency increase (very slight) with 20 too.

 

[DRICHEY]

sorry to bump a dead horse...been reading up on this now since I moved to Germany. Lots of un-restricted roads here. Wondering what Toyota/Other Manf. consider as High speeds. On average I drive between 70-95mph to work depending on traffic. On road trips I cruise at 85-95mph.
Ran 0w-20 Royal purple for the last 7000 miles. Changed my oil today and put in Mobil 0w-30. Truck has been running fine. Big difference in driving style here vs the States. Haven't found any 0w-20 , other than Royal Purple. I can always go back. Anyone else been running 30?

 

[Ezlife45]

How about this

Somewhat along the same lines.

I had a Dakota with 200K on the clock. Sounds amazing but I did it. Ran it on regular 10W30. At 100K I figured I had a little wear on her so I started using 10W40. At about 180 gas was getting to 4.00/gal so I wanted to squeeze all the efficiency I could out of my engine. I went back to 10W30 and started using oil. At the next oil change went back to 10W40. Then at 190K+ the 40 weight started going.

Is there much concern on an older engine to heavy up the oil to help prevent engine consumption? My engine had no oil leaks, did not smoke noticeably and did have a good intake air gasket that plagued dodges...

 

[Saker]

I don't understand the need to vary from a crucial requirement of engine oil weight that Toyota developed our engines and thoroughly tested with.....

just sayin'

 

[BettysNephew]

If I remember correctly from a couple of oil seminars I attended while in the industrial maintenance community, the first number on 0W-20 is the actual viscosity of the oil and the dash 20 is the oils' capability of passing the tests required of 20 weight oil. The oil does not thicken when it gets hot, but is able to protect to the level of the higher viscosity oil. Another thing that was discussed was that the really extended weights (like -50) were done with long polymer chains that tended to break down fairly quickly during the service life of the oil, so were not necessarily a best choice with extended duration oil changes.

As an aside story regarding synthetic oils while working as an industrial mechanic, we had a gearbox failing on a heavily loaded conveyor system and the gearbox, a ring and pinion type, was so hot that it felt like it was heated by a torch. You could feel the heat coming off of the enclosure from a foot away and it would have burned you severely if you had touched it. We were in the middle of a two week production run and the gearbox would have required extensive disassembly of the conveyor to replace which would have entailed shutting down the process system and doing a total clean up which was an 8 hour process. We shut the conveyor down and drained the scalding oil into a waste bucket and replaced it with a synthetic gear lube. We then restarted the conveyor and within 2 hours you could place your hand on the gearbox while running. The gearbox ran until our next scheduled downtime and was replaced without affecting production. This event convinced me and the rest of the mechanics in our department of the capabilities of synthetic oils. I run them in everything I own.

I would run Toyota's recommended weight.

 

[DRICHEY]

Thanks for the insight. I know its been said before. Not real worried for one OCI on the 30. Have to order the 20 for next one.

 

[Wizzard]

Actually it says:
If SAE 0W-20 is not available,
SAE 5W-20 oil may be used.
However, it must be replaced
with SAE 0W-20 at the next oil
change.

If you are savvy enough to get a Used Oil Analysis you might think it provides you with protection in case of engine failure but Toyota will be pointing you to the manufacturer of the oil if you need to file a claim. I have nothing against any particular brand of oil but I can afford the frequent oil changes other people claim they don't need. But claiming it's ok to run 30 weight oil is just more misinformation.

Forget all the "protection" talk and focus on hydrodynamics and the difference between forcing water through a garden hose versus forcing cold molasses through. The oil pump in the 5th Gen V6 was designed to run 20 weight oil max. The channels were designed to run 20 weight oil. The problem with thicker oil is that pressure builds up and pressure leads to leaks and leaks lead to failure. Is it as dramatic a difference as water and cold molasses? No usually, but time takes it's toll, as does high RPMs and hot weather. 0w-20 is the recommendation, why bother trying to second guess the people who designed the engine?

It's not a big surprise that you don't hear about engine failure due to the wrong oil. No one's going to want to admit to the world that they blew up their engine trying to save a few bucks. I mean, look how many people blamed Toyota when they jammed on the gas instead of the brake?

0W-20 was strictly a move to eek every bit of economy possible out of the engine, it was not chosen based on bearing clearances or oil galley diameters within the engine block. Any reputable engine builder (not an 'assembler') knows this, and it is published in articles. Oil is selected based on application. NASCAR teams use different grades depending on the application, you won't see them using the same thin grade oil they use for qualifying in a race (yes these aren't pushrod racing engines but the same principles apply). If you compare equal high mileage engines that have used a 20 grade vs a 40 grade all else being the same the cylinder wall cross-hatch will be more worn (less visible) on the engine that ran 20 grade. It is a matter of how thin of an oil can they get away with (in order to improve economy). Should a person run 20w-50 on a modern engine, no, but 0w/5w-30 is more than acceptable and probably better suited for a hot climate on an engine that will see 200k+ miles over its lifetime, especially if any towing will be involved (considering someone doesn't care about the .5-1.5% economy improvement of 0w-20).

 

[1engineer]

0W-20 was strictly a move to eek every bit of economy possible out of the engine, it was not chosen based on bearing clearances or oil galley diameters within the engine block. Any reputable engine builder (not an 'assembler') knows this, and it is published in articles. Oil is selected based on application. NASCAR teams use different grades depending on the application, you won't see them using the same thin grade oil they use for qualifying in a race (yes these aren't pushrod racing engines but the same principles apply). If you compare equal high mileage engines that have used a 20 grade vs a 40 grade all else being the same the cylinder wall cross-hatch will be more worn (less visible) on the engine that ran 20 grade. It is a matter of how thin of an oil can they get away with (in order to improve economy). Should a person run 20w-50 on a modern engine, no, but 0w/5w-30 is more than acceptable and probably better suited for a hot climate on an engine that will see 200k+ miles over its lifetime, especially if any towing will be involved (considering someone doesn't care about the .5-1.5% economy improvement of 0w-20).

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/109588-oil-change-0w20-wtf.html

You probably need to pull out some documentation if you truly believe your post. "NASCAR" engines are 1960's model oranges. Our engines are at least 2000's apples. F1 engines would be a closer comparison than "NASCAR."

I posted the link because there is some decent information in there and some documentation too.

 

[Wizzard]

Yup, already read that thread. F1 engines have an over-square design with massive bore-stroke ratios, we won't even get into the custom oil they require. When looking at the physical properties a NASCAR engine is much more comparable. Not to mention engines such as the ones used by NASCAR are assembled with much more precision compared to assembly line engines.

 

[Swarty]

I would go ahead and assume they mean high engine speeds.

sorry to bump a dead horse...been reading up on this now since I moved to Germany. Lots of un-restricted roads here. Wondering what Toyota/Other Manf. consider as High speeds. On average I drive between 70-95mph to work depending on traffic. On road trips I cruise at 85-95mph.
Ran 0w-20 Royal purple for the last 7000 miles. Changed my oil today and put in Mobil 0w-30. Truck has been running fine. Big difference in driving style here vs the States. Haven't found any 0w-20 , other than Royal Purple. I can always go back. Anyone else been running 30?

Constant hard acceleration is where the engine sees the most forces, in other words high RPMs. Cruising at some speed is not where you see the gains from heavier oil since the torque and RPMs being produced are pretty low even at 95 MPH.That being said I personally feel that for protection the 0 is the more important part. The thinner the oil is at start up the faster it will protect your parts. the difference between 20 and 30 at operating temps is negligible. You can go to most oil sites like mobil1 or castrol and they show where their products are carried. Worst case you have to wait for them to order it.

 

[1engineer]

Yup, already read that thread. F1 engines have an over-square design with massive bore-stroke ratios, we won't even get into the custom oil they require. When looking at the physical properties a NASCAR engine is much more comparable. Not to mention engines such as the ones used by NASCAR are assembled with much more precision compared to assembly line engines.

No seriously, you alluded to "articles" in your post and I would truly like to see these items documented from a reliable source:
1. Toyota only uses 0W-20 for efficiency and it's all a marketing ploy, and
2. Engine design, oil passages, oil galleries, oil pumps, etc have no bearing on on viscosity of oil.
If you could show me true documentation I would appreciate it.

Edit: Here's some documentation on F1 and "NASCAR":
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2014/9/16398.html
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=71544
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/guides/viscosity/

 

[crackiswack]

If you compare equal high mileage engines that have used a 20 grade vs a 40 grade all else being the same the cylinder wall cross-hatch will be more worn (less visible) on the engine that ran 20 grade. It is a matter of how thin of an oil can they get away with (in order to improve economy).

This is all a moot point when the 0w-20 is a superior synthetic compared to a dino 40 weight. cars making it to 250k+ on dino 5w30 would have made it to those intervals on 0w20 as well. This has already been hashed out on oil forums and no noticeable difference in wear occurs using a synthetic oil, they are all vastly better at protecting the engine compared to a conventional anyways, so why bother going to a thicker weight oil?

 

[NorthWest 4R]

I have always used the Caterham blend in all my modern vehicles that spec 0-20W.

 

[Wizzard]

No seriously, you alluded to "articles" in your post and I would truly like to see these items documented from a reliable source:
1. Toyota only uses 0W-20 for efficiency and it's all a marketing ploy, and
2. Engine design, oil passages, oil galleries, oil pumps, etc have no bearing on on viscosity of oil.
If you could show me true documentation I would appreciate it.

Edit: Here's some documentation on F1 and "NASCAR":
Formula 1® - The Official F1® Website - Headlines - Ferrari and Shell debut natural-gas derived oil
Oil viscosity in Formula 1 Engines? | Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO) - Gasoline Cars/Pickups/Vans/SUVs | Bob Is The Oil Guy
Choosing The Right Viscosity | Driven Racing Oil

1engineer, no offense but the article you linked to are either advertisements (Shell) from the Formula1 website (which is a marketing site, just like NASCAR.com) or arm-chair information when it comes to engine building. Driven is simply marketed JGR in-house spec'd oil, they were forced to go under the name Driven due to sponsorship reasons and now they market to the public sector. It is no secret that the move to 0W-20 was due to CAFE standards. Bearing clearances are in the norm for Toyota, nothing exotic at all, rod bearing clearances for example are ~.0015+/- with a max allowable of ~.0025.

Fuel economy race brings expensive oil to inexpensive cars
AMSOIL- Articles
No 0w20 in Australia and this is why | Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO) - Gasoline Cars/Pickups/Vans/SUVs | Bob Is The Oil Guy

 

[1engineer]

1engineer, no offense but the article you linked to are either advertisements (Shell) from the Formula1 website (which is a marketing site, just like NASCAR.com) or arm-chair information when it comes to engine building. Driven is simply marketed JGR in-house spec'd oil, they were forced to go under the name Driven due to sponsorship reasons and now they market to the public sector. It is no secret that the move to 0W-20 was due to CAFE standards. Bearing clearances are in the norm for Toyota, nothing exotic at all, rod bearing clearances for example are ~.0015+/- with a max allowable of ~.0025.

Fuel economy race brings expensive oil to inexpensive cars
AMSOIL- Articles
No 0w20 in Australia and this is why | Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO) - Gasoline Cars/Pickups/Vans/SUVs | Bob Is The Oil Guy

Thanks for the documentation. The Bobistheoilguy link cannot be right. $3 TRILLION Toyota earned on CAFE credits?
I do agree it is more efficient but my contention is that is actually a good oil spec for our vehicles and their normal operation. I also cannot comprehend how people keep calling a higher viscosity oil "thicker." I also never used the word exotic. I don't know what you do for a living but in my world we design for a specific fluid spec and tolerate a bit either way for unusual conditions.
The links I posted took all of five seconds to google. I could spend a bit of time and give you better.