1999 4Runner - No Brake Pedal after flush and bleed!!

[MrBobDobalina]

Okay, for those that didn't see my post about my brake flush:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...lly-needed-reason-flush-your-brake-fluid.html

Now I have tried everything to bleed these brakes, I have gone through 60 ounces of brake fluid....

I tried both with the key on and off...

I used a Mityvac...

I used a helper and tried manually...

Then I bought another vacuum based bleeder that I hook up to my air compressor...

All of which produce the same results...When the truck is off the pedal will get hard after about 5 pumps, then once I start it up the pedal falls to the floor....I am not finding any additional air in my lines when I bleed....My brakes worked great aside of my nasty fluid before I flushed, now I can't leave the house!!!

Is there anything special to consider with the ABS?

My truck is a 99, so I don't have the hydraulic booster. Shouldn't matter if the truck is on or off right?

My master cylinder is not leaking and as I mentioned before the flush I had not one issue with my brakes. Always seemed to stop exactly when and where I needed them.

The funny thing is, I just finished flushing the brake fluid with my Mityvac from my friends 07 Lexus IS250 just before I did mine and had no issues with that....

 

[Singtoe]

Sounds like your master cylinder crapped out.

 

[rjaudi]

I had bleed the brakes before on my 4runner. When I put the lift on I had to install the longer brake line that I got in the Sonoran kit. Spend a good bit trying to bleed them to no avail. Finally took it to a shop and the master cylinder was done. It did not leak, but the internal seal was done.

 

[attitudeofgratitud]

I'm sure others will be mad when I post this. But you shouldn't have cleaned the MC with anything other than new clean brake fluid. Plus you should bench bleed the MC when it's been disconnected. You may try that before buying a new one. It'll take 2 people if you leave it on the car. Just have someone pump the peddle 4-5 times(slowly) holding on the last stroke. Then crack loose the rear most line on the MC. Repeat several times and then move to the front one. Then start at the pass. rear slowly pump 4-5 times. Then drivers rear, pass front and drivers side. All this while not running. If still no peddle. Then your MC is toast. And I hope your using DOT 3.

 

[MrBobDobalina]

Sounds like your master cylinder crapped out.

That is what I am thinking too!!

I had bleed the brakes before on my 4runner. When I put the lift on I had to install the longer brake line that I got in the Sonoran kit. Spend a good bit trying to bleed them to no avail. Finally took it to a shop and the master cylinder was done. It did not leak, but the internal seal was done.

Interesting, I always thought I would see a leak. Maybe something I flushed through the system took out the MC. That old fluid was nasty.

I'm sure others will be mad when I post this. But you shouldn't have cleaned the MC with anything other than new clean brake fluid. Plus you should bench bleed the MC when it's been disconnected. You may try that before buying a new one. It'll take 2 people if you leave it on the car. Just have someone pump the peddle 4-5 times(slowly) holding on the last stroke. Then crack loose the rear most line on the MC. Repeat several times and then move to the front one. Then start at the pass. rear slowly pump 4-5 times. Then drivers rear, pass front and drivers side. All this while not running. If still no peddle. Then your MC is toast. And I hope your using DOT 3.

Just to be clear, I only removed the MC reservoir to clean it out. Not the entire MC. I have ran about 60oz of DOT 3 through the system trying to get the bleed down. I have used two people in the way you suggested and still no peddle...

Everyone, thank you for your responses!! I need to get my rig back, she is my DD right now!!

What is going on now is that when I am completely done bleeding in the proper order from farthest-closest and the truck is off I can pump the pedal, it will respond tightly - I hold down the pedal and the start the truck - The pedal drops to the floor. If I try to pump the pedal with my foot, it just keeps dropping to the floor. If I pump the pedal rapidly by hand, I can build a bit of pressure but if I try to hold it, the pedal will lose the stiffness and drop to the floor after a few seconds.

From what rjaudi said, maybe my internal seals were ruined with a piece of sediment from the inside of the res when I flushed it.

I always thought if the MC was toast you would see it leak or it would of failed before I simply flushed my old fluid....I had not had a lot of sudden stops, but the few I have had were without any concern.

Any suggestions for verifying the MC is bad before I pull that tomorrow? I am having dreams about brake fluid and just want to get past this task that normally is soooooo simple Thanks again everyone!!

 

[A.Wilson013]

Do not know what does not compare people to see it on the happy

Am I the only one that saw this...?

 

[MrBobDobalina]

Am I the only one that saw this...?

No, I saw it!! Dang spammmmmmmmmmmmerrrrs! Dont click the link in his sig!!! Probably something bad. I sent it to the mods and looks like they already deleted it.

 

[TheDurk]

I'm guessing some air got in the MC when you took the reservoir off. I have a '99 paper FSM (bought in '99) and there is a specific instruction on how to bleed the MC in this case that is different from the 2002 FSM you find on-line (because of the hydraulic booster).

It's short and it worked for me when I let the reservoir go dry first time I bled the truck with my $10 DIY power bleeder. So I'll retype it:

From page BR-4 V.2 '99 FSM:

If the master cylinder has been disassembled or if the reservoir becomes empty, bleed the air from the master cylinder.
(a) Disconnect the brake lines from the MC.
(b) Slowly depress the brake pedal and hold it
(c) Block off the outlet plugs with your fingers, and release the brake pedal
(d) Repeat (b) and (c) 3 or 4 times.

The illustration shows two fingers in "V" formation being held to the two outlets on the side of the MC. It does not say to reconnect the brake lines, but I think we can assume that's the next thing to do.

Then you need to re-bleed the rest of the system. This is certainly worth trying before you ditch a good MC.

 

[MrBobDobalina]

I'm guessing some air got in the MC when you took the reservoir off. I have a '99 paper FSM (bought in '99) and there is a specific instruction on how to bleed the MC in this case that is different from the 2002 FSM you find on-line (because of the hydraulic booster).

It's short and it worked for me when I let the reservoir go dry first time I bled it with my $10 DIY power bleeder. So I'll retype it:

From page BR-4 V.2 '99 FSM:


The illustration shows two fingers in "V" formation being held to the two outlets on the side of the MC. It does not say to reconnect the brake lines, but I think we can assume that's the next thing to do.

Then you need to re-bleed the rest of the system. This is certainly worth trying before you ditch a good MC.

Nice!! Thank you very much for posting that, I am going to try to get this done one last time in the morning....First will be MC bleed, per those instructions and then bleed brake lines...

 

[attitudeofgratitud]

Just bleed the MC the way I described, by loosening the lines. No need to take them completely off. Either way is fine, but this way is easier and just as effective. Plus just as messy.

 

[cj80cruiser]

Just bleed the MC the way I described, by loosening the lines. No need to take them completely off. Either way is fine, but this way is easier and just as effective. Plus just as messy.

So it worked or do you have to bleed the rest of the system still?

 

[attitudeofgratitud]

So it worked or do you have to bleed the rest of the system still?

I'm not the OP. Just trying to help the guy gets some brake pedal back.

 

[MrBobDobalina]

Just bleed the MC the way I described, by loosening the lines. No need to take them completely off. Either way is fine, but this way is easier and just as effective. Plus just as messy.

Okay I will give it a go today when I get a helper!! Thanks again for the reply!!

So it worked or do you have to bleed the rest of the system still?

I will post up what happens today, I am going to try and bleed the MC and then rebleed the lines one additional time.

 

[TheDurk]

Okay I will give it a go today when I get a helper!!

Actually, I did it my/the FSM way with no helper. Just a 2x4 to hold the pedal down against the front seat, then I used a breaker bar to knock it away with my right hand while using my left hand to put the fingers on the outlets.

To be honest, you are supposed to re-bleed the rest of the system, but I tried a test drive after just doing the MC and all was good so I left it. That was exactly two years ago. YMMV.

 

[MrBobDobalina]

Actually, I did it my/the FSM way with no helper. Just a 2x4 to hold the pedal down against the front seat, then I used a breaker bar to knock it away with my right hand while using my left hand to put the fingers on the outlets.

To be honest, you are supposed to re-bleed, but I tried a test drive after just doing the MC and all was good so I left it. That was exactly two years ago. YMMV.

Got to love that ingenuity...Desperation is the mother of all invention. I don't think I will have a helper today, so I may be trying something creative like this...Thanks!!

 

[cj80cruiser]

I'm not the OP. Just trying to help the guy gets some brake pedal back.

Yeah, I don't know why I thought you were. doh!

 

[TheDurk]

Got to love that ingenuity...Desperation is the mother of all invention. I don't think I will have a helper today, so I may be trying something creative like this...Thanks!!

Exactly! I had to get it done. I think I ended up with my cheek on the windshield but it worked!!

 

[attitudeofgratitud]

Is it fixed?

 

[topdown4runner]

I'd put my money on the booster.
If you have good pedal with the engine off, then it is building pressure in the system regardless.
Once vacuum is applied via the engine, you loose the pedal.
This screams "Bad Booster" to me.

 

[MrBobDobalina]

Is it fixed?

Its seems like it....I had a friend who works on Toyota mini-trucks a lot and he helped me bleed one more time...there were a few more air bubbles....It still feels a bit soft, but it still seems to stop quickly....at 30 mph I slammed the brakes and it stopped quick and abs kicked on for just a quick second.

I'd put my money on the booster.
If you have good pedal with the engine off, then it is building pressure in the system regardless.
Once vacuum is applied via the engine, you loose the pedal.
This screams "Bad Booster" to me.

I hope I don't ever have an issue with this!! If I am able to stop as I explained above, I am hopping there was just a bit of air left causing my problem....I drove it for about 30 minutes through the city last night and with my normal driving I didn't notice it stopping any different.