2016 4Runner getting recalled for Takata airbags...

[00Sebby]

Not sure...

But then your modifying a safety system with an unapproved repair (I doubt Toyota or even the NHTSA would be okay with that).

Manufacturers don't like to mess around when it comes to safety systems. For example unless Toyota specifies otherwise any damage to SRS wiring requires replacement of the corresponding wiring harness. (i.e. rodent nibbles the insulation on an airbag wire? The entire harness that has that wire needs to be replaced, I'd imagine not a lot of independent shops would even think of repairing it due to liability. )

This is becoming a circular discussion when you cloud the possibility of what could physically be done by trying to counter with the mind readings and intent of large companies and government organizations.

I understand that unplugging an airbag is not a solution and I understand Toyota doesn't want to "mess around" with the functionality of the SRS system. I worked in the automotive industry for over 20 years and for several years at an airbag inflator factory here in TN... thankfully not Takata. I'm not talking about Joe Blow shade-tree mechanic making this change. I'm talking about a Toyota/Takata engineering effort to design an approved repair module that replicates the load or presence that the current airbag inflator presents to the system. It's basically an igniter connector combined with the correct resistor, maybe a dollar in parts. We made these at the factory I worked at to make sure our inflator test and measurement equipment was working properly. You don't want to plug a real inflator into a test fixture without knowing that it works properly... it could get messy.

Then, those of us that still want to use the vehicle as intended now know the risk of the temporary "fix" and could opt to safely drive it until an airbag inflator becomes available in the next few years. Take it to the dealer, sign paperwork of understanding, and then they unplug the bomb and plug in this approved module that lets the rest of the system work properly. At the same time, place one of those ugly yellow stickers on the dash that warns the passenger "THERE IS NO PASSENGER AIRBAG IN THIS VEHICLE BUT AT LEAST YOU WILL NOT BE FILLED WITH METAL BITS IN THE EVENT OF A COLLISION. RIDE AT OWN RISK AND USE SEATBELT."

 

[wfo9]

This is becoming a circular discussion when you cloud the possibility of what could physically be done by trying to counter with the mind readings and intent of large companies and government organizations.

I understand that unplugging an airbag is not a solution and I understand Toyota doesn't want to "mess around" with the functionality of the SRS system. I worked in the automotive industry for over 20 years and for several years at an airbag inflator factory here in TN... thankfully not Takata. I'm not talking about Joe Blow shade-tree mechanic making this change. I'm talking about a Toyota/Takata engineering effort to design an approved repair module that replicates the load or presence that the current airbag inflator presents to the system. It's basically an igniter connector combined with the correct resistor, maybe a dollar in parts. We made these at the factory I worked at to make sure our inflator test and measurement equipment was working properly. You don't want to plug a real inflator into a test fixture without knowing that it works properly... it could get messy.

Then, those of us that still want to use the vehicle as intended now know the risk of the temporary "fix" and could opt to safely drive it until an airbag inflator becomes available in the next few years. Take it to the dealer, sign paperwork of understanding, and then they unplug the bomb and plug in this approved module that lets the rest of the system work properly. At the same time, place one of those ugly yellow stickers on the dash that warns the passenger "THERE IS NO PASSENGER AIRBAG IN THIS VEHICLE BUT AT LEAST YOU WILL NOT BE FILLED WITH METAL BITS IN THE EVENT OF A COLLISION. RIDE AT OWN RISK AND USE SEATBELT."

The idea makes perfect sense, but that would mean more money spent.. Two engineering efforts and two field replacement jobs. Bottom line... all they care about is the money... They will give you a POS rental for the next X amount of time while your truck sits.... but that won't work for me....

Follow up question. I thought the airbag only gets activated when there is a certain amount of weight on the passenger seat (maybe I'm thinking of another car...) but if that was the case it seems like modifying that circuit would be an easy DIY.

 

[007Tacoma]

Follow up question. I thought the airbag only gets activated when there is a certain amount of weight on the passenger seat (maybe I'm thinking of another car...) but if that was the case it seems like modifying that circuit would be an easy DIY.

This was my thought as well. I wonder... I am not actively part of the recall yet, but how long does it take for the deterioration to set in on these air bags? Is my wife at risk for our trip to Colorado tomorrow?

I could just avoid hitting things, but where is the fun in that??? :lookout: :jk:

 

[kernel.panik]

I just went on to Toyotaowners.com and saw that mine is due for July of 2019...

wonder if it will still take 6 months from then to get it done...

 

[wfo9]

This was my thought as well. I wonder... I am not actively part of the recall yet, but how long does it take for the deterioration to set in on these air bags? Is my wife at risk for our trip to Colorado tomorrow?

I could just avoid hitting things, but where is the fun in that??? :lookout: :jk:

Should be nothing to worry about yet on a 2015. It looks like their estimates put the airbags at risk in 5 years in the worst climate zones. This obviously depends a lot on how you store and use the truck. If it sits in a garage....or out in the sun all the time on the beach... Mine has spent most of its life garaged, so not too worried even though I'm in now past the 5 year window living in zone A. Still wish they had parts available to remedy, because it is not cool to put passengers at risk.... of a pipe bomb in the face.

 

[johnbt]

I'm waiting on one.

Those clowns at Toyota built my 2016 TEP with the worthless part. And it was built in September of this year. And McGeorge Toyota didn't bother to mention it. Projected replacement date is 2019.

Clowns, the entire bunch of them.

 

[00Sebby]

The idea makes perfect sense, but that would mean more money spent.. Two engineering efforts and two field replacement jobs. Bottom line... all they care about is the money... They will give you a POS rental for the next X amount of time while your truck sits.... but that won't work for me....

Follow up question. I thought the airbag only gets activated when there is a certain amount of weight on the passenger seat (maybe I'm thinking of another car...) but if that was the case it seems like modifying that circuit would be an easy DIY.

True. Spend $200 (including dealer labor) to make the vehicle mostly safe in the interim. Much cheaper than rentals, loaners and people suing for injury and death. And you are correct. The seat mat sensor senses weight and area to decide if airbag should be activated or not. Has to be over 40 lbs and somewhat evenly distributed in the seat. For example, my 42 lb poodle sitting up front disables the airbag. Car seats do the same due to the uneven weight distribution. It would be very easy to mimic the seat sensor to disable the airbag and let the others function as normal.

 

[wfo9]

I'm waiting on one.

Those clowns at Toyota built my 2016 TEP with the worthless part. And it was built in September of this year. And McGeorge Toyota didn't bother to mention it. Projected replacement date is 2019.

Clowns, the entire bunch of them.

Its unclear, but I'm not sure Toyota has built any 5th gens without the defective bags yet. Maybe it will be fixed in 2017 maybe not. Since there is a 5 year+ safety window... they are able to keep selling them without having to disclose anything to the buyer.

If anyone has info about a 2016 with an updated airbag. please post production dates...

 

[00Sebby]

I'm waiting on one.

Those clowns at Toyota built my 2016 TEP with the worthless part. And it was built in September of this year. And McGeorge Toyota didn't bother to mention it. Projected replacement date is 2019.

Clowns, the entire bunch of them.

Most of the older and at risk vehicles being serviced for the recall have received a just-as-defective-but-newer inflator which will have to be replaced later. If you think about it in a 20 year window, even with desiccant, the inflator will eventually end up in the same condition. Desiccant becomes saturated over time and the moisture will still have an impact. The problem is Takata's cheap design that allows outside air to enter the vessel.

The airbag inflators made at the company I worked for are hybrid inflators that use both propellant and compressed inert gas. So, a sealed vessel with high psi inert gas inside along with the propellant prevents any moisture from finding its way inside. Of course, they are still pipe bombs and can rupture if not assembled correctly but they do not suffer moisture instability. I think all of this is calling into question the safety of having explosive-filled devices throughout the interior of the vehicle.

 

[Salvo Jimmy]

I think it was an old Shelly Berman joke about the first lap seat belts. They were so only the top half of you would go thru the windshield in a crash.

 

[johnbt]

We didn't have lap belts when I was learning to drive. I thought they were an improvement because they kept me from sliding across the bench seat when cornering too hard. Those were the days.

Heck, my first football helmet didn't have a face guard.

Toyota is so proud of their quality stuff, so they say, but profit comes first, well before safety it appears.

Straight from the global site: "Safety and Confidence. Enriching Lives of People". Doesn't it make you feel all warm and fuzzy? Toyota cares about us, the customers. Our money maybe. They only care if we live so we will buy another car.

And McGeorge Toyota? Nothing they do surprises me. I bought a new '86 Camry for my then wife - white with a red interior - and paid good money for upgraded aluminum wheels and rigid mudflaps. They delivered the car to me with the mudflaps in bags in the back seat and cussed me out when I called to ask if they were serious about me drilling the additional hole in each rear fender and installing them. I did and then called the president of the company. He was not happy with his employees telling a customer FU on the phone.

Anyway, they've improved some over the years, but this defective airbag installed in a late-2016 vehicle ticked me off just enough to consider going by there to demand a refund for my TEP and my girlfriend's Avalon Touring.

Do you think they would have refunded the $75,000 cash I spent? Well, it was personal checks, but that's cash, right? It would have been fun just to get 'em going on the showroom floor and jerk 'em around some. Call it old retired guy entertainment.

John

 

[jwatson]

Just imagine if Toyota's dealerships were as reliable as the cars...

 

[wfo9]

We didn't have lap belts when I was learning to drive. I thought they were an improvement because they kept me from sliding across the bench seat when cornering too hard. Those were the days.

Heck, my first football helmet didn't have a face guard.

Toyota is so proud of their quality stuff, so they say, but profit comes first, well before safety it appears.

Straight from the global site: "Safety and Confidence. Enriching Lives of People". Doesn't it make you feel all warm and fuzzy? Toyota cares about us, the customers. Our money maybe. They only care if we live so we will buy another car.

And McGeorge Toyota? Nothing they do surprises me. I bought a new '86 Camry for my then wife - white with a red interior - and paid good money for upgraded aluminum wheels and rigid mudflaps. They delivered the car to me with the mudflaps in bags in the back seat and cussed me out when I called to ask if they were serious about me drilling the additional hole in each rear fender and installing them. I did and then called the president of the company. He was not happy with his employees telling a customer FU on the phone.

Anyway, they've improved some over the years, but this defective airbag installed in a late-2016 vehicle ticked me off just enough to consider going by there to demand a refund for my TEP and my girlfriend's Avalon Touring.

Do you think they would have refunded the $75,000 cash I spent? Well, it was personal checks, but that's cash, right? It would have been fun just to get 'em going on the showroom floor and jerk 'em around some. Call it old retired guy entertainment.

John

Don't forget... Toyota has a dark history when it comes to safety and fraud... Toyota agreed to pay a 1.2 Billion dollar fine (the largest in history of any automaker)

The U.S. Justice Department was pursuing criminal fraud charge against Toyota Motor for misleading customers about unintended acceleration, but Toyota agreed to pay the fine to defer the criminal charges. They also had to setup a 3 year independent safety monitor as part of the settlement. This safety monitor should still be in place now and is probably the reason they are doing rentals for those who push the issue.

I'm sure they don't want people hurt.. but i'm sure the fix is also very low on the list since there are not that many 5th gens on the road. They will get around to it at some point...Hopefully sooner rather than later.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

[MENTION=134890]00Sebby[/MENTION]

It comes down to liability, by bypassing the airbag and doing what you're suggesting it could then be put that it's Toyota's burden should someone become injured because no airbag was active in that spot. Then people will vilify Toyota that they should never have let the vehicles go without airbags, ect. and it becomes a "let's blame everyone else" situation that's all too common in America... hell the world. It's not a technical issue but a legal/liability issue.

Also the airbags aren't all grenades, the issue is more about the propellant being unstable and the detonation characteristics being more unpredictable (still very dangerous and potentially deadly) . First off having handled the inflators that are being replaced regularly and also having set many of them off, you'd be hard pressed to crack/destroy a casing unless it was structurally unsound like say a poor weld in a certain hybrid side airbag inflator.

The inflators being recalled are typically passenger side units, these are not like the apparently thinner walled steering wheel units (which due to propellant issues were rupturing). Having looked at the shrapnel claims it seems almost all of them are driver's airbag units, which from the post-deployment pictures I have seen seem to have a thinner casing.

That's a Passenger inflator that slides into the airbag assembly, it's got something like 3/16 or 1/4" thick walls. It probably won't grenade like the other makes and models affected (keep in mind that the Takata thing is across a lot of brands as they supply a whole slew of manufactures not just Toyota). But unstable propellant means unpredictable detonation characteristics, which means potential danger to the occupant.

I'm not trying to downplay the severity of the issue, but generalizations such as that are rather annoying and do nothing but cause uneeded fear in owners. It's the same thing as the UI issue Toyota faced years ago, much (If not probably the huge majority) of Unintended Acceleration issues were end-user caused (too many floor mats stacked up, crap rolling everywhere in the car, double foot driving, ect. the list of idiotic things I saw and see that could cause that condition are baffling in how common it is). Unfortunately it meant the small subset of legitimate cases got quietly swept under the rug and the issues of non-lead solder in the circuits creating tin whiskers and potentially aging/erroneous coding causing memory bandwidth issues was forgotten. Toyota wasn't and isn't the only manufacturer with those issues nor will they be the last (in fact Toyota was lambasted by the media, but almost ALL manufacturers had a hundred or more cases of UI in their Throttle By Wire systems around the time Toyota did, it's not a Toyota specific issue).

Sensationalism sells papers, but it doesn't do much beyond stoke panic and fear when most people can't be bothered to research.

Post Note-

From what I have heard and understand of the situation, it will probably not be long before air bags are a service item with a given life-expectancy like say coolant, oil, spark plugs, ect. It seems like regardless of what propellant is used, it just degrades over time and has the potential to be unstable particularly in places with higher humidity and such. That alone is enough of a liability concern that I wouldn't be surprised if after this Takata thing is more under control you'll see expiration dates on airbags to shift liability on long-term vehicle owners instead of companies.

 

[Salvo Jimmy]

We didn't have lap belts when I was learning to drive. I thought they were an improvement because they kept me from sliding across the bench seat when cornering too hard. Those were the days.

Heck, my first football helmet didn't have a face guard.

Toyota is so proud of their quality stuff, so they say, but profit comes first, well before safety it appears.

Straight from the global site: "Safety and Confidence. Enriching Lives of People". Doesn't it make you feel all warm and fuzzy? Toyota cares about us, the customers. Our money maybe. They only care if we live so we will buy another car.

And McGeorge Toyota? Nothing they do surprises me. I bought a new '86 Camry for my then wife - white with a red interior - and paid good money for upgraded aluminum wheels and rigid mudflaps. They delivered the car to me with the mudflaps in bags in the back seat and cussed me out when I called to ask if they were serious about me drilling the additional hole in each rear fender and installing them. I did and then called the president of the company. He was not happy with his employees telling a customer FU on the phone.

Anyway, they've improved some over the years, but this defective airbag installed in a late-2016 vehicle ticked me off just enough to consider going by there to demand a refund for my TEP and my girlfriend's Avalon Touring.

Do you think they would have refunded the $75,000 cash I spent? Well, it was personal checks, but that's cash, right? It would have been fun just to get 'em going on the showroom floor and jerk 'em around some. Call it old retired guy entertainment.

John

John,

I've had good luck with service at Haley in Midlothian when visiting my Grandkids there and service was due. Satisfied with routine service, state inspection, brake job, new tires. Was done on my '04 Runner, over several years.

BTW sounds like you might have had a spinner knob on the steering wheel. lol

OBTW no seat belts in my first drive either. '49 Ford. I can also vaguely recall standing up on the front seat between my parents in a '39 Packard. No kiddie seat for sure.

Lastly 1st football helmet was leather.

 

[00Sebby]

[MENTION=134890]00Sebby[/MENTION]
First off having handled the inflators that are being replaced regularly and also having set many of them off, you'd be hard pressed to crack/destroy a casing unless it was structurally unsound like say a poor weld in a certain hybrid side airbag inflator.

That's a Passenger inflator that slides into the airbag assembly, it's got something like 3/16 or 1/4" thick walls. It probably won't grenade like the other makes and models affected (keep in mind that the Takata thing is across a lot of brands as they supply a whole slew of manufactures not just Toyota). But unstable propellant means unpredictable detonation characteristics, which means potential danger to the occupant.

[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION], I agree with most of your points. As for liability, it is already a problem for Toyota. In Toyota's case do they want to risk killing a passenger with a potential known faulty airbag or alert the consumer that there is a non-working airbag on that side but they can still ride with the other safety features? We can't answer this, but only guess the legalities.

As for hybrids coming apart, it can and has happened. If rupture disks are doubled up, a port is blocked or not drilled, or as you refer to a bad weld, etc. the vessel will come apart in potential deadly fashion. The good part about this style is the pressurization process does prevent moisture entry.

Lastly, your point on casing thickness. Passenger airbag inflators are larger and heavier with thicker casings because of several reasons. They inflate a bigger bag, the bag has to travel farther than the driver bag and therefore faster, so they also have more propellant than a driver airbag. Unstable propellant detonation can exceed the port holes' ability to vent and rupture the vessel as well. Fortunately, the tube type are more likely to split than shrapnel but it has happened.

In summary, it seems you are willing to roll the dice one way and I would be willing to roll the dice the other way. But I have a 2010 model that has lived near the coast and in the south and still can't get a replacement soon so I would rather it be disabled.:frusty:

 

[wfo9]

[MENTION=134890]00Sebby[/MENTION]

It comes down to liability, by bypassing the airbag and doing what you're suggesting it could then be put that it's Toyota's burden should someone become injured because no airbag was active in that spot. Then people will vilify Toyota that they should never have let the vehicles go without airbags, ect. and it becomes a "let's blame everyone else" situation that's all too common in America... hell the world. It's not a technical issue but a legal/liability issue.

Also the airbags aren't all grenades, the issue is more about the propellant being unstable and the detonation characteristics being more unpredictable (still very dangerous and potentially deadly) . First off having handled the inflators that are being replaced regularly and also having set many of them off, you'd be hard pressed to crack/destroy a casing unless it was structurally unsound like say a poor weld in a certain hybrid side airbag inflator.

The inflators being recalled are typically passenger side units, these are not like the apparently thinner walled steering wheel units (which due to propellant issues were rupturing). Having looked at the shrapnel claims it seems almost all of them are driver's airbag units, which from the post-deployment pictures I have seen seem to have a thinner casing.

That's a Passenger inflator that slides into the airbag assembly, it's got something like 3/16 or 1/4" thick walls. It probably won't grenade like the other makes and models affected (keep in mind that the Takata thing is across a lot of brands as they supply a whole slew of manufactures not just Toyota). But unstable propellant means unpredictable detonation characteristics, which means potential danger to the occupant.

I'm not trying to downplay the severity of the issue, but generalizations such as that are rather annoying and do nothing but cause uneeded fear in owners. It's the same thing as the UI issue Toyota faced years ago, much (If not probably the huge majority) of Unintended Acceleration issues were end-user caused (too many floor mats stacked up, crap rolling everywhere in the car, double foot driving, ect. the list of idiotic things I saw and see that could cause that condition are baffling in how common it is). Unfortunately it meant the small subset of legitimate cases got quietly swept under the rug and the issues of non-lead solder in the circuits creating tin whiskers and potentially aging/erroneous coding causing memory bandwidth issues was forgotten. Toyota wasn't and isn't the only manufacturer with those issues nor will they be the last (in fact Toyota was lambasted by the media, but almost ALL manufacturers had a hundred or more cases of UI in their Throttle By Wire systems around the time Toyota did, it's not a Toyota specific issue).

Sensationalism sells papers, but it doesn't do much beyond stoke panic and fear when most people can't be bothered to research.

Post Note-

From what I have heard and understand of the situation, it will probably not be long before air bags are a service item with a given life-expectancy like say coolant, oil, spark plugs, ect. It seems like regardless of what propellant is used, it just degrades over time and has the potential to be unstable particularly in places with higher humidity and such. That alone is enough of a liability concern that I wouldn't be surprised if after this Takata thing is more under control you'll see expiration dates on airbags to shift liability on long-term vehicle owners instead of companies.

Good info, and I agree the risk is probably overstated... but it is not something we can really speculate too much about since the NTSA says they are unsafe device and could cause serious injury or death... Since the risk has an environmental trigger... you figure they have to error way on the conservative side.

Understand media and hysteria cause lots of false claims... but Toyota had a real problem with UA.... Most other mfgs did not. It was a very poor design for such a critical component. It is hard for any mfg to sift through all the bogus claims that come in... My only reason to bring it up was that Toyota is still being watched very closely under the agreement. Which is probably a good thing for owners.

The thing that is a bit irritating about this entire deal is how long it has been going on. This round of recall guidelines were set in May. So 6 months and no remedy for current owners. No information on when parts will be available. They are still building 5th gens.. so airbags must be available. Even if they are 5 year lifetime ones... they should be putting them in to allow people to keep carrying passengers without risk.... I understand that would be expensive...but probably much cheaper than paying for 6 months to a year of a rental....

 

[Ron4RNevada]

Does anyone have any actual numbers of the people who were injured over the years by these "defective" air bags? What are there, 20,000,000 or so vehicles with "defective" airbags driving around?

Has anyone actually heard of one case? Are we being a bit paranoid?

Last I heard the the unintentional acceleration of 15 year old Camry's was a faked hokes. My wife's 2001 Camry carpet pad is still fastened down as securely as my 2013 4Runners is.

BTW: My first 10 cars didn't come with seat belts; we didn't wear helmets when riding bicycles and horses when I was a kid; all of my early cars came with bumper jacks (made exactly like a high lift); yes I do go off-road without another vehicle along; no I don't routinely air down; my mother drank and smoked while she was pregnant with me; I guess there were just a lot less lawyers around 76 years ago.

Just sayin' - - - I would say bro or dude but those titles just don't easily pass my lips.

Meanwhile, I'm sure not going to lose any sleep over this situation.

:spider:

 

[wfo9]

Does anyone have any actual numbers of the people who were injured over the years by these "defective" air bags? What are there, 20,000,000 or so vehicles with "defective" airbags driving around?

Has anyone actually heard of one case? Are we being a bit paranoid?

A quick google search shows 70 million vehicles, 150 injuries and 11 deaths with many more under review. 10 of the deaths were in Hondas. That is the overall Takata airbag recall. Not sure if any of those are passenger airbags. I'm guessing the issue there is much more speculation based on the design flaws found in the driver units.

This is a bit different than most things you mentioned... It's a pipe bomb installed in your car. Much different than a lack of safety equipment... I'm willing to take calculated risks all day long.. and do very often. Just not thrilled about putting a bomb in my passengers face. I would much rather disable it.

I never wore helmets either... but I do now. And it has probably saved my life a few times. There is a difference between taking risk and just being stupid.

The numbers came from here...
The Takata Airbag Recall Is Now a Full-Blown Crisis

And a very interesting quote from that article....

Toyota, including its Lexus and Scion brands, began replacing passenger-side inflators starting last October. The threat is so great that the company even advised its dealers to disable the passenger-side airbags if the replacement was not available, and attach a sticker to the dashboard that says “Do Not Sit Here.”

I wonder why we are not seeing this with 5th gens.

 

[WRM1]

I'm waiting on one.

Those clowns at Toyota built my 2016 TEP with the worthless part. And it was built in September of this year. And McGeorge Toyota didn't bother to mention it. Projected replacement date is 2019.

Clowns, the entire bunch of them.

Apparently, there's no other part that will fit the space allocated to the airbags. Toyota's had to choose between not selling the vehicles at all, or selling them as is, with no problems likely to occur in the first 6 years. If it's a problem, ask for a refund.