5100 set for no lift

[ron in sc]

If Bilstein 5100 are used on the front and set for no lift or very little lift does that mean no change in nosedive? In other words to they have to be set up to lift in order to preload the spring in essence increasing the spring rate.

 

[Stream2Stream]

I would think so, but then again, I've always assumed the upgrade in shock was the catalyst for the elimination of the nose dive. So, if it is indeed the compressed spring in the adjustable CO that is doing that, then I would think that a 5100 set to 0 would see no change.

 

[philsey]

5100s will not "eliminate" nose dive. "Reduce" perhaps.... it's more soft springs than shocks.

ETA: Mine set @ .85 reduced nose dive noticeably, but it is nowhere near gone ... still annoys me.

 

[ron in sc]

Based on what both of you have said I'm thinking this may give me a reason and/or excuse to buy the Kings.

I think the way the Kings work I think I can get spring rate I need to stop most of nosedive and set coil to exact height I want. I like the idea of the spring being separate from the shock.

 

[eddiebx]

You're not going to get rid of all/most of the nose dive unless you get some really really stiff springs...I have ~600lb/in springs and there's still substantial nose dive if you slam the brakes hard. Don't get me wrong, it made a huge difference over the stock springs, but it's still definitely noticeable.

If you want to get stiffer springs and keep the stock height you're probably going to have to go with the Kings or something of that sort, because I've not seen any off the shelf springs that are stiffer and no lift. The other option are custom springs, but that can get kind of pricey (IMO, might as well spend a little more and just go with the Kings )

 

[adam2562]

who here has the King Shocks?

 

[Canazes9]

Based on what both of you have said I'm thinking this may give me a reason and/or excuse to buy the Kings.

I think the way the Kings work I think I can get spring rate I need to stop most of nosedive and set coil to exact height I want. I like the idea of the spring being separate from the shock.

Ron,

If on road performance/handling is a major consideration you want Icon's
, not King. Icon's "raison d'être" is their digressive shock valving. This provides stiffer settings to reduce nose dive/improve cornering which become soft on bigger hits, then progressively stiffer like Kings. The main difference is the initial softness setting.

If you don't want a lot of lift, want better handling, significantly reduced nosedive while maintaining strong off road performance check out my no/low Icon lift thread:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/147258-no-low-lift-icon-suspension.html

David

 

[homeyclaus]

I left my 5100's on my 4Runner at stock height, and they significantly reduced the nose dive, to the point it wasn't an issue any more. YMMV, but to me it went from "hold onto your coffee cup" to what one would expect from a truck.

 

[bimrunner]

who here has the King Shocks?

Gabex35 has them and someone else I believe... Can't remember who.

 

[ron in sc]

Ron,

If on road performance/handling is a major consideration you want Icon's
, not King. Icon's "raison d'être" is their digressive shock valving. This provides stiffer settings to reduce nose dive/improve cornering which become soft on bigger hits, then progressively stiffer like Kings. The main difference is the initial softness setting.

If you don't want a lot of lift, want better handling, significantly reduced nosedive while maintaining strong off road performance check out my no/low Icon lift thread:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/147258-no-low-lift-icon-suspension.html

You're not going to get rid of all/most of the nose dive unless you get some really really stiff springs...I have ~600lb/in springs and there's still substantial nose dive if you slam the brakes hard. Don't get me wrong, it made a huge difference over the stock springs, but it's still definitely noticeable. If you want to get stiffer springs and keep the stock height you're probably going to have to go with the Kings or something of that sort, because I've not seen any off the shelf springs that are stiffer and no lift. The other option are custom springs, but that can get kind of pricey (IMO, might as well spend a little more and just go with the Kings

David,
I read the thread you link to and it's relevant to my situation too.

There is a board member close by who runs the icons. I'm hoping to check his out next week. I kind of got the impression that the icons are rather stiff on the road.

You're not going to get rid of all/most of the nose dive unless you get some really really stiff springs...I have ~600lb/in springs and there's still substantial nose dive if you slam the brakes hard. Don't get me wrong, it made a huge difference over the stock springs, but it's still definitely noticeable

.

If you want to get stiffer springs and keep the stock height you're probably going to have to go with the Kings or something of that sort, because I've not seen any off the shelf springs that are stiffer and no lift. The other option are custom springs, but that can get kind of pricey (IMO, might as well spend a little more and just go with the Kings

King makes an OEM 25001-278 and a spring rate of 550 lbs which is the rate recommend for my vehicle. If the spring is not used to lift the vehicle it was my understanding that the range of motion the shock can use for compression, rebound and damping is optimal. Of course King can put other springs in there with higher rates.

I know I would not like the ride if all the nosedive was gone, because it would probably ride super stiff. I just want to get rid of the slinkys they used for the front springs.

 

[philsey]

..... I just want to get rid of the slinkys they used for the front springs.

:laugh:

 

[1engineer]

Ron,

If on road performance/handling is a major consideration you want Icon's
, not King. Icon's "raison d'être" is their digressive shock valving. This provides stiffer settings to reduce nose dive/improve cornering which become soft on bigger hits, then progressively stiffer like Kings. The main difference is the initial softness setting.

If you don't want a lot of lift, want better handling, significantly reduced nosedive while maintaining strong off road performance check out my no/low Icon lift thread:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/147258-no-low-lift-icon-suspension.html





David,
I read the thread you link to and it's relevant to my situation too.

There is a board member close by who runs the icons. I'm hoping to check his out next week. I kind of got the impression that the icons are rather stiff on the road.


.



King makes an OEM 25001-278 and a spring rate of 550 lbs which is the rate recommend for my vehicle. If the spring is not used to lift the vehicle it was my understanding that the range of motion the shock can use for compression, rebound and damping is optimal. Of course King can put other springs in there with higher rates.

I know I would not like the ride if all the nosedive was gone, because it would probably ride super stiff. I just want to get rid of the slinkys they used for the front springs.

Do you have an SR5? I can't remember. If so, have you driven an LE or KDSS equipped TE?

 

[ron in sc]

Do you have an SR5? I can't remember. If so, have you driven an LE or KDSS equipped TE?

I have 2012 SR5. Have not driven the vehicles you reference. If advisable I can go to dealer and drive 2014 version of those vehicles.

 

[Canazes9]

David,
I read the thread you link to and it's relevant to my situation too.

There is a board member close by who runs the icons. I'm hoping to check his out next week. I kind of got the impression that the icons are rather stiff on the road.


.



King makes an OEM 25001-278 and a spring rate of 550 lbs which is the rate recommend for my vehicle. If the spring is not used to lift the vehicle it was my understanding that the range of motion the shock can use for compression, rebound and damping is optimal. Of course King can put other springs in there with higher rates.

I know I would not like the ride if all the nosedive was gone, because it would probably ride super stiff. I just want to get rid of the slinkys they used for the front springs.

Ron,

Riding in vehicles with different set ups is the best way to decide if you can. The Icons are stiffer than stock for sure. They are also going to be initially stiffer than a comparable set up with Kings. Having said that, I don't find them at all objectionable - just a nice taught feeling. Remember, this is my wife's daily driver and she is very happy with it also.

With the Icons the suspension will feel tighter and more taught, but if you hit a big pothole or speed bump at speed they soften. As the impacts get harder the shocks get progressively stiffer like the Kings. The real difference is just the initial feeling - do you want it to feel soft or taught? For me, the initial tightness makes the vehicle feel much more responsive and agile.

Based on the discussions that I had with Icon, your understanding that a suspension set-up without lift provides optimum ride is correct. While the Icon coil overs come set-up to provide ~2.5" lift in the front, they can be adjusted down to stock ride height. I lowered mine ~0.5". The Icon people I spoke with said that several employees had their personal vehicles set with Icon suspensions at stock ride height.


David

 

[1engineer]

I have 2012 SR5. Have not driven the vehicles you reference. If advisable I can go to dealer and drive 2014 version of those vehicles.

I think [MENTION=51186]philsey[/MENTION] and [MENTION=96409]Canazes9[/MENTION] advice is sound. If you can, drive different suspension setups. I would definitely drive the LE with XREAS and the TE with KDSS if you can find one down there. I had a '11 SR5 and traded for the TE and there is a world of difference in handling and nose dive.
If you were going to go hard off road then I would not even blink at changing to Icon or King. For your use it might pay to drive the others just to see if that would suit you better.

 

[philsey]

As to [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] 's mention of the TE/LE; I don't know what it would do for you as to tuning your SR5, but I drove a '13 TE last Fall, and a '14 LE several weeks ago.

Compared to my SR5's (w/ 5100s) handling, the TE was better, and the LE was much better. Hating the nose dive as I do, I really gave the LE a workover with the brakes and an extensive test drive. It would be my choice were I to replace mine.

Although now that the TRD Pro is around the corner, I'll just wait for the new engine.

 

[ron in sc]

I think [MENTION=51186]philsey[/MENTION] and [MENTION=96409]Canazes9[/MENTION] advice is sound. If you can, drive different suspension setups. I would definitely drive the LE with XREAS and the TE with KDSS if you can find one down there. I had a '11 SR5 and traded for the TE and there is a world of difference in handling and nose dive.
If you were going to go hard off road then I would not even blink at changing to Icon or King. For your use it might pay to drive the others just to see if that would suit you better.

Just back from dealer and drove 2014 Limited with XREAS. Vehicle was 2W drive and had a sunroof. No other recommended vehicles there to test.

My vehicle is 2012 SR5 with 4W drive and no sunroof.

I have not read anything abut the XREAS so I don't know how it works. My observations are just that and are not intended to offend anyone.

My impressions are as follows:
1-Not a substantial difference in nosedive. Both vehicles were driven fast enough to the point the ABS kicked in on hard braking. I suspect the spring rates of both vehicles are the same.

2-Driving as hard and fast as I felt comfortable on a cloverleaf ramps I would say the XREAS was a little more stable. This may be due to lack of extra weight of the 4W drive parts associated with the SR5. It may be related to different shocks on the XREAS which if I had to guess have better compression and rebound characteristics than on my SR5.

These are just my unscientific observations.

I do not think I would be happy with an aftermarket system that performed like the XREAS that I drove..

I will search for someone reasonably close to Charleston, SC that has Bilstein setup and King setup, I have someone for the Icon kit.