harper7
Senior Member
What's Jed??? :bigok:Wow, Jed is all over this one! Numbers are numbers, take a breath people
Oh ,that's right. I have the "Ignore Jed" software up and running now!
:jk:
5th Gen sales up 54.7% over 4th Gen
- Thread starter SeattleMike
- Start date
Oh ,that's right. I have the "Ignore Jed" software up and running now!
:jk:
You really should do it. Then you can just read all of westwind's BS and illogical garble and skip over the facts and logic. Hahahahaha:toilet3:
SeattleMike
New member
Maybe its a regional thing. In my neck of the woods, soccer moms drive much more expensive SUVs and usually much bigger ones. I see them in Escalades and Range Rovers every single day. And the middle class soccer moms just buy minivans. Even today I rarely see a soccer mom 4Runner. Not that they aren't out there, but not very often do I see one. Hell, I hardly even see a female driving a 4Runner...it always seems to be a guy behind the wheel of the 4Runners I see on the road.
westwind77
New member
Yes, I guess here we do go. Yes, do I need to repeat myself? NO ads in my area. None, zip, nada, sorry. (even if there was, I am sure it would not be more than the 09's) (apples to apples)
Wow, I do not know what reality you are in, but not mine. Yes, it still in horrible right now. I own my own business 25+ years, 08 we saw the start of it going down, 09' was not the best, and 10' is starting off as 09' was so far. The amount of people I have knocking on my door looking for jobs seems to be increasing month by month. I do watch the news, but I also rely on real number, what people are spending. The calls I get from people with Ferraris in the garage asking how they can get their bills 15-30% from last year. I am not the only one, every business in my area is feeling the 'pinch' more now than the same time last year, so dont get me started on that..
No, no, no, and no! There are too many variable to go back that far. Everything from price of fuel to insurance cost to vehicles that are in competition with the 4R, then vs now. Sorry, you need to look at 09' vs 10'. We all know the numbers were higher way back then, again many many many reason why. If you look short term, 09' vs 10' the reason is clear and 99% of all other factors reamain the same, except for the new style. That is what has increased the sales, which you admit to, which I was trying to say. The 4R will NEVER (IMO) ever get to the sales numbers it used to be at. The market is saturated with all new crossovers with all wheel drive and other like it, the hardcore demand for this 4R is not out there anymore. People are going to opt for one of those over a 4R unless they plan to do serious offroading. To think it will ever be 100,000 is just well....put yourself in a straight jacket and save people some time! It can, however, be at the top of the SUV market it happens to be in, whether that number be 500 or 10,000, it does not matter. Time will tell with that though.
Well, you did not offer your reasoning? I am sure other reasons are out there, price/value/competition/etc. I almost bought a pre-owned Sequoia but it had too many miles for me. I looked at the last gen of them, almost bought one too (exterior I loved, interior not so much). Not a chance with the new style though. To back up my 'crazy' oh so funny reason... over the course of about a year I found 3 Sequoias to choose from. I knew a few people and asked them if they were going to trade them in. I, yes ME, was laughed at....and the comment back to me...."have you seen the new ones!?!" (said with disgust).
Of course not, did you figure they would be?! Again, gas prices are a LOT higher, a lot more competition from other makers, economy in the tank and on and on and on and.... You can not compare apples to oranges. That is why you have to look year to year. That is like saying look at Windows 3.1 sales vs Windows XP sales, you just can NOT do that. Well you could, but you would not be too smart, think of how many computers were in houses back then vs today. Some things you can compare over decades, others you can not.
Can you just be HAPPY the 4R is doing better? Improving sales for Toyota? Hopefully showing them that, yes, there are people around who still WANT something like this. That it will keep their company motivated to improve this 4R even more and maybe give us a 6th in a number of year! Would you rather have sales worse?
westwind77
New member
Regarding the Venza: Production of the 2009 V6 model started in November 2008 and started to slowly appear on dealers' lots in late December/early January. The 4-cylinder model arrived a few months later.
That explains the relatively low numbers in early 2009 for the Venza -- slow ramp up of production and the popular 4-cylinder model hadn't been released yet.
Regarding the 5th Gen 4Runner: you can't compare 2010 to 2003. The general market has moved on from traditional SUVs. The only real question is whether the 5th Gen is meeting Toyota's sales targets, which I'm sure are obviously significantly lower than 2003. I seriously doubt that Toyota envisioned the 5th Gen sparking a BoF SUV renascence.
You're missing a key variable: the number of 4th Gen 2009 4Runners available on the lots was likely very constrained as Toyota cut back on production. You can't sell what's not on the lot.
That explains the relatively low numbers in early 2009 for the Venza -- slow ramp up of production and the popular 4-cylinder model hadn't been released yet.
Regarding the 5th Gen 4Runner: you can't compare 2010 to 2003. The general market has moved on from traditional SUVs. The only real question is whether the 5th Gen is meeting Toyota's sales targets, which I'm sure are obviously significantly lower than 2003. I seriously doubt that Toyota envisioned the 5th Gen sparking a BoF SUV renascence.
You're missing a key variable: the number of 4th Gen 2009 4Runners available on the lots was likely very constrained as Toyota cut back on production. You can't sell what's not on the lot.
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Hmmm....no ads in your area. Now that's funny. Do you read magazines? I only ask because I happen to have the March edition of Popular Mechanics and guess what's on page 23 of that issue? Yup, a full page ad for the 2010 4Runner. I don't know...maybe you don't get Popular Mechanics "in your area" LOL. And just for the record, the ad campaign for the '09 was virtually non-existent. Besides, do you really think that it would be smart marketing for Toyota to build an all-new 4Runner and NOT advertise it? Really? Not very business-minded, are you?
I'm not saying the everything is all rosy with the economy, but it's an undeniable fact that things have gotten better overall. The stock market has started to rebound, for one. And CAR SALES HAVE BEEN INCREASING, which is exactly what we're talking about. You can deny it all you want, but the proof is all around you. Don't argue with me because I'm just telling the truth. Just do you own research if you don't believe me, but the fact remains that people are buying more new cars now, and that wasn't happening when the economy was nothing but doom and gloom.
There is no way to compare that is 100% fair and accurate. So we are left with two options: Compare the first year sales of each generation or comparing '09 and '10. Now which is more accurate? Well, there are problems with both, but the big issue you seem to miss is that Toyota severely cut production of the '09 4Runner like they never have in the history of the 4Runner. The numbers I found said only about 5000 were produced and sold. So your way of comparing is far more inaccurate. But if you insist on comparing to recent sales numbers, you'd have to look at '08 sales. Still though, the way I see it, the better way is to look at first year sales.
And the only real way to make a true comparison is by overall numbers for each generation, assuming they have the same number of models years between them. Of course that will not be known until the 6th gen comes out.
No sense it adding to the debate. It's just funny to me that you think the reason for poorer sales is a redesign. Lets leave it at that.
You can't be serious with that comment....We've already covered this. Any manufacturer that redesigns a vehicle and doesn't have increased sales over the old model failed miserably. Newsflash for you---more people than ever lease cars today. Did you ever wonder why? Well, one big reason is that people want to drive new cars....the newest cars they can drive. If the 5th gen 4Runner came out looking like a twin to the Rav4, it still would have sold better than the '09 4Runner, just because it was a fresh design. How do you not grasp that simple concept? And again, the '09 was an anomaly---no other 4Runner had such low sales numbers in history.
It doesn't make a difference to me either way. I don't get happy or sad if 4Runners are selling or not. It just doesn't make a difference in my life either way. I just find it ridiculous that someone starts a thread that sales are up on the 2010 4Runner and doesn't understand that the comparison he's making is based on numbers from the '09 only. Lets be real here...the 4Runner is one bright spot in Toyota's lineup, but selling nearly 6000 units to date is nothing to write home about. If the numbers don't increase dramatically, I highly doubt we'll even see a 6th gen. So yes, in that respect it would be nice to see the sales numbers go up to continue the 4Runner as we know it, but so far I am not impressed. I'd love to know Toyota's sales projections for the 2010 and see how it compares to actual sales. If things stay the same for the rest of the year, it looks like 4Runner sales will be approximately 25000 units. Now imagine if the sales stay at that same level for the next 3 or 4 years. Do you think Toyota would continue the 4Runner as we know it? I don't know, but the FJ is already close to the chopping block and I highly doubt they would keep two "offroad" oriented SUVs that are not selling in big numbers.
RonMAIDEN
Super Moderator
I have noticed over several threads it seems 4th gen owners are butt hurt that the 4th generation ended and seem to be taking some things personally like they don't want to see the 5th gen succeed and just rip on it every chance they get.
If 4th gen owners love their Runners so much then keep it and be happy but to debate some of this stuff is simply silly.
If 4th gen owners love their Runners so much then keep it and be happy but to debate some of this stuff is simply silly.
Yeah, you got it all figured out. We don't want the 5th gen to succeed. We would rather see the 4Runner die completely. Now pass that joint, will ya?
My debate is based off the silly crap that certain people post. There's nothing wrong with a little sibling rivalry, but sometimes I feel that some of these guys need a "voice of reason" to get their heads out of the clouds. It's not personal, it's about being real, which is something some people just can't handle. If you or anyone else wants to make comparisons, then feel free. Just make sure they are real and not out in left field, which is mostly what I see in this thread. Sorry if you can't see that.
The reality is that the only number that matters is whether the 2010 model is meeting Toyota's expectations. Whether you think the numbers don't justify a 6th Gen or whether others feel the 5th Gen has knocked it out of the park -- it's all pure speculation. Both views are highly premature, IMHO.
Uneek
Super Moderator
:iagree:
Another way to accurately track the success of the 5th gen is its sales rank relative to SUVs in its category or market share. This would account for market shift from body on frame SUVs to crossovers and any other type of hype and trend out there.
The current issue of Motor Trend highlights top sellers in 2000 vs. 2009. They mention how gas prices have impacted the overall sales numbers of full size trucks, and the Camry in '09 have moved to the #2 best selling vehicle. However, the Camry maintained its position above the Accord. Furthermore, the Corolla was not listed in top 10 for 2000, but it even edge passed the Accord and Civic. Both the Camry and Corolla have been successful in out selling their competition. Just like the the Ford F150 selling in much smaller numbers in '09, it still outsold its rivals and that IMO is being successful, since the segment as a whole has sold less units.
So if the 4Runner continues to maintain or improve its sales ranking relative to its rivals in the segment, then its been successful.
Also, the last year of an outgoing generation and the first year of the new generation will almost always result in a huge jump in percentages. The '10 4Runner was an exception, but Toyota likes introducing a new generation almost a full year ahead of its model year further skews the numbers. The '11 Sienna is available now, '07 Camry was on sale in Jan '06, etc.
Yes, and that is exactly what I said in an earlier post in this thread. I think it's pretty much common sense that Toyota wants/needs their vehicles to meet sales projections. The problem there is that nobody knows what Toyota expects out of the 4Runner. They have obviously let the FJ go this long without being a big seller, but rumors have been circulating that the FJ is getting the axe very soon. That's not to say it will definitely happen, but unless Toyota is fine with the FJ being a niche vehicle and a low volume seller, I think its future is questionable. Either way, I seriously doubt Toyota has room for two low volume midsize SUVs in its line-up, but I guess time will tell.
Yes, it is really hard to figure it all out these days because there are so many vehicles that are difficult to define. It seems that more and more vehicles are somewhere between cars/suvs/trucks, almost to the point that they need their own classification.
That said, what do you see as the 4Runner's direct competitors? Years ago, the 4Runner competed directly with other SUVs of similar size and price that also happened to be body-on-frame, no IRS, etc...It used to be Explorers, Grand Cherokees, Pathfinders, Trailblazers, etc... And an argument could be made that the 4Runner still competes with those vehicles today, but in reality most of them have shifted to unibody design with IRS, so I'm not so sure they are really a direct competitor anymore. Take the new Grand Cherokee for example....it's unibody and now will have IRS. Why would Jeep do that? Simple---they want to compete with all those softroader crossover SUVs that have flooded the market in the last few years. At the same time, they also keep themselves in the same market segment as the 4Runner because the Grand Cherokee still has enough in common that people will cross shop them.
westwind77
New member
No need to feel sorry for me. Just as sales numbers don't make a difference to me, your opinion matters even less.
adoihcj
New member
To tell you the truth,I was not a 4Runner enthusiast prior to buying a 5th Gen. Personally, I think the 3rd Gen looks much better than the 4th. Given that I've never owned a 4Runner before, and never owned a Toyota for that matter, I believe Toyota did what they set out to do -- attract NEW customers. Would love to survey the group of 5th Gen owners on here and see how many of them ever owned a 4Runner in the past.
I bet the true 4Runner enthusiasts (those who owned a 4Runner in the past) will probably buy more 2011's than 2010's. So as someone mentioned earlier, it will be interesting to see the numbers for 2011.
I bet the true 4Runner enthusiasts (those who owned a 4Runner in the past) will probably buy more 2011's than 2010's. So as someone mentioned earlier, it will be interesting to see the numbers for 2011.
More than a few 4th gen owners like myself would agree. I much prefer the looks of the 3rd gen. But I prefer the room and performance of the 4th gen over that of the 3rd gen.
