97 Houdini Coolant

J

jhumphrey

New member
Hey all,

So I'm fearing the worst on my 97 runner 3.4: blown head gasket. But first, let me describe whats going on. The runner isn't a DD and I've come to realize that I overpaid for it. I just spent close to $500 for new LBJ's and tie rods (did the work myself, so saved on "labor"). Still, my issues seem to keep piling up and I'm not finding the runner to be any more dependable or tough than my Jeep (which is why I made the leap). But, I've gotten on a tangent...

I haven't had the runner long and was going through doing the routine fluid check/change and noticed that the coolant reservoir was empty. Easy enough, just add. I did check the radiator and could see coolant even though it wasn't at the very top. So I topped everything off. After some mileage, I checked it again: empty. Not a good sign.

I flushed the system, re-topped everything off, and changed the radiator cap. I drove it about 30 miles, reservoir was still at the full mark. Awesome. I put another 30 miles on it and checked it: reservoir was halfway between F and E. Once again: not a good sign.

I plan to take her to a radiator shop and have a leak down done to see where the antifreeze is going, but I'm expecting the worse. I've already talked to my mechanic and I'm looking at a $1k job if its the head gasket.

That's where my question comes in: where else / what else should I be looking at to eliminate any other possibility? My runner isn't showing any typical signs of hg leaking: no smoke, no rough idle, no overheating, and no bubbling coolant. That's why I'm at a bit of a loss. I've searched the site (and others) and haven't found any help. I've also tried to find a picture write up of a hg replacement, but haven't found one either.

Any and all help is appreciated!
 
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If your head gaskets were leaking THAT much, your engine would've liquefied.

First, check for leaks. Run the engine and look to see if any coolant drips. If you don't see anything, turn it off and let it sit overnight and look for pools the next day. Also, inspect your upper and lower radiator hoses. Check for holes and also where they connect to the radiator/engine block. Clamps may be loose.

Second, check the water pump. I had symptoms just like you. Lost lots of coolant with no HG symptoms. After running it for several weeks by just refilling the reservoir, my water pump completely gave out and poured out coolant. Replaced it...never had coolant disappear again.

Third, if you really do suspect HG...let the engine sit overnight and pull your spark plugs out. You might find traces of coolant on them if you in fact have a HG failure. Ultimately, you can take it to the shop for a compression test on the cylinders. You can also buy chemical detection kits for a DIY method.

Overall, it doesn't sound like a HG issue from you're saying. With that much coolant loss, you'd def have rough idle or smoke. HG failure is relatively rare on these rigs, unless you let the engine overheat before. Fear not (yet).
 
Ryan_289 said:
Does it have an automatic transmission? If so check the fluid level ASAP! Search "pink milkshake"
Click to expand...

Yes, it has an auto trans. I've read some about pink milkshake, but isn't it immediate and catastrophic? Is the only way to check for it is to pop the plug on the transmission itself? I've checked the fluid level via the dipstick and didn't notice anything.
 
If your fluid level is rising on the transmission dipstick than its not going in there. Do you see any white smoke coming from the exhaust that has a "sweet" smell? That can indicate hg failure. I chased a coolant leak on a different vehicle once that drove me nuts. No puddles but noticable loss of coolant. It ended up being an intake manifold gasket in the back and was dribbling out and hitting the manifold and burning off.
 
Ryan_289 said:
If your fluid level is rising on the transmission dipstick than its not going in there. Do you see any white smoke coming from the exhaust that has a "sweet" smell? That can indicate hg failure. I chased a coolant leak on a different vehicle once that drove me nuts. No puddles but noticable loss of coolant. It ended up being an intake manifold gasket in the back and was dribbling out and hitting the manifold and burning off.
Click to expand...

The trans fluid is on the dipstick and appears fine. I'll look again tomorrow. I did smell the exhaust and it didn't smell sweet or like antifreeze. It just smelled like...exhaust. Of course the weather has been cold here, so there is exhaust smoke when cars start up. But before the cold snap, I didn't notice any smoke upon start up.

I didn't think about an intake manifold. I'll need to look around there and see what's going on. I need to tighten my valve cover gaskets anyway, they're leaking as well.

Oh, and my 97 has 171k on it. If that matters.
 
I agree with Kanger, if it was a headgasket, as much as it's leaking you would see smoke and have rough running after sitting for a while.

I would look around the water pump for signs of dried coolant and check your rear heater lines that run along the passenger side underneath by the cats.
 
I have to change the oil tomorrow on the mrs scion, so while I'm at it, I'll look around the water pump to see if it's weeping. The timing belt/wp was done around 85k. So, I could see it failing now that it's getting close to having 100k on it.

I've checked my upper and lower hoses and they were dry/not leaking. I'll also see if I can locate the hoses on the pass side near the cat to see if they're leaking. I'll also try to do the cardboard test to see if it's leaking somewhere and catching on the skid plate.

I know the rear valve cover gasket on the driver side is leaking, so maybe the intake manifold gasket is shot.

Any suggestions on how to check the wp without taking everything apart?

Thanks for the help so far!
 
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bump on the water pump as possible culprit. Had this same exact issue on my wife's Toyota Rav4.....I was filling the reservoir for weeks and weeks, trying to determine the cause. I was like you, thought it was the HG, but did not have the symptoms.

Discovered that the coolant was coming out of the weep hole on the WP, had it replaced several months ago - coolant level has remained exactly the same in the reservoir ever since.

Check that weep hole on your WP....you wont see it on the ground, but you may see it on our engines down on the very bottom (looking down on the engine from above, right below the belts on the right side just above the skid plate.)

Good luck!
 
Another place to check is the aux/rear heater lines. They run along the inside of passenger frame rail.

Good luck!
 
Yes, they run parallel with the exhaust right beside the cats. My 98 had good size leak there, when I found it I poked it a little and she let go, dumping hot coolant on me. Good times. I just bypassed the lines in the engine compartment. Rear heat is nice but not necessary.
 
Ok, so I was able to look around a little today. I must've missed the heater lines near the cat or my runner doesn't have them, I couldn't find any lines near the frame in that area.

I also looked around the front of the engine and couldn't see the water pump (or weep hole). Do I have to take everything apart (belts, shrouds, etc) to see it? If that's the case, I might as well just go on and replace everything regardless. Talk about a PITA.

I did notice around the lower radiator hose that there was an orange-red tinted gunky buildup. The coolant was orange before I flushed (I put in green). This could be burnt motor oil as well, I simply can't tell the difference.

While I was looking for the lines near the cat, I noticed a ton of that orange gunk buildup on my axle area and rear engine. Maybe it's a rear main seal, maybe not. Ive attached some photos to get an opinion. Yes, they're crappy. I can try to get better ones, if need be.







I did look around the lower radiator hose and it was completely dry (as was the tstat - I guess thats what it was, Im still learning toyota).

Thanks everyone for the ideas so far.
 
Can't tell from the pics but what you call reddish colored gunk is probably ATF from the power steering system. That's the rack you're pointing to in the pic. Looks like you have quite a bit of oil leaking underneath...

Easy to tell if you have the rear heater or not. If you're sitting in the back seat and you look at the backside of the center console, is there a heater control there? If not, you don't have it or the coolant lines.
 
kball said:
Can't tell from the pics but what you call reddish colored gunk is probably ATF from the power steering system. That's the rack you're pointing to in the pic. Looks like you have quite a bit of oil leaking underneath...

Easy to tell if you have the rear heater or not. If you're sitting in the back seat and you look at the backside of the center console, is there a heater control there? If not, you don't have it or the coolant lines.
Click to expand...

No, no controls, so no heat.

So where should I be looking for the ATF leak?

Man, I really should've inspected this thing better before I bought it. I def overpaid and am at this point considering selling it. It took me forever to find this one but I'm just not sure it's worth sinking all this money into.
 
Anywhere from the reservoir down...

I think you need to park it over some paper or something so you can tell where the coolant is going.
 
So the snowball keeps growing...

Can anyone point me to a write up on steering rack replacement? I'm beginning to think the ATF that's all over the rack is from it going bad (from what I've read here and other sites), it's lining up. I'm still planning to trace the lines, but I have $20 on the rack being bad. Why? That's my luck :-/
 
I wanted to give an update. I drove the runner 150-200 miles over the weekend over highway and city driving. No coolant loss was experienced. If the weather is good next weekend, I plan to trace the ps lines and see if I can find the leak. I did notice a little groan when turning, so I think the pump may be leaking.

Just wanted to update everyone.
 
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