A possible solution to leaking axle seals

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

So is it as simple as the retainer be pressed on too far?

Yes, that's it. I think when techs press the retainer on, they press it all the way against the ABS exciter ring (on ABS models) and that is wrong. Also, I see A LOT of people cutting the pressed on components and cutting into the axle. This usually isn't a problem except for inner retainer where the seal rides. If the groove from the cutting wheel is deep enough (it doesn't take much) the gear oil channels under the retainer. At that point you MIGHT be able to fill the groove with a little hardening sealant, or you might need a new axle. There are machine shops that do spray welding to fix stuff like this too but a used axle somewhere would be cheaper.

 

[mtbtim]

So is it as simple as the retainer be pressed on too far?

I would show the shop that did the job for you what you learned from this thread. Before they do anything with the retainer position, have them pull the axles, put grease on the inner retainers, put the axles back in until they are fully seated (I suggest bolting it back up just to be sure it's fully seated), rotate the axles a few times, pull the axles back out and see where the lip of the seal has pushed the grease back. The line where the grease is pushed back to shows you where the lip of the seal is currently riding. This will hopefully give the mechanic an "AH HAHH" moment realizing the seal lip was barely riding on the polished part of the retainer.

Now, ask them to pull the retainers off and flip them around so the bevel is now facing the ABS gear. Have them press the retainers in with 3mm of polished axle showing and redo the grease test. If the lip of the seal isn't centered on the polished part of the axle, have them press it in further until the lip of the seal is centered. What I found when watching the mechanics do my axles is we had to go to 5mm of polished axle showing to get the lip of the seal centered. The lip of the new seal only sits 2mm more inboard than the original seal. When you flip the retainer, you're gaining around 2mm because you no longer have to push past the bevel width to get onto the polished shoulder of the retainer. So, flipping the retainer and keeping around 5mm of polished axle showing worked for me. How people are getting the seal lip centered at 3mm of polished axle showing when they flip the retainer doesn't make sense to me. The only way having 3mm of polished axle showing makes sense is if you don't flip the retainer and leave it in the OEM orientation with the bevel facing the seal.

Here's my post from a while back explaining my experience with what I'm taling about:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...olution-leaking-axle-seals-6.html#post1925749

 

[Bmellow]

Thanks for all the advice. Im hopeful the shop I've been going to is willing to work with me, I have an appointment this coming Tuesday. I certainly don't think they are bad guys and it sounds like from your experience there are even Toyota shops that aren't aware of how to get this fix right. After my original post I called the closest Toyota dealer to me and when I told the person what year my 4 Runner was he chuckled and said they usually don't see vehicles that old come in their shop for service. He said most older vehicles end up at independent shops. His comments didn't give me much faith that, even going the route of a dealership, they would get it right. After finding this thread I'm a little more hopeful I'll be able to keep my 99' on the road.

 

[mtbtim]

Thanks for all the advice. Im hopeful the shop I've been going to is willing to work with me, I have an appointment this coming Tuesday. I certainly don't think they are bad guys and it sounds like from your experience there are even Toyota shops that aren't aware of how to get this fix right. After my original post I called the closest Toyota dealer to me and when I told the person what year my 4 Runner was he chuckled and said they usually don't see vehicles that old come in their shop for service. He said most older vehicles end up at independent shops. His comments didn't give me much faith that, even going the route of a dealership, they would get it right. After finding this thread I'm a little more hopeful I'll be able to keep my 99' on the road.

Yes, not even Toyota mechanics know everything about our rigs. If the shop is worth anything, they will listen to what you have to say regarding what you've learned on this forum and then do the grease test for you. Once they do the grease test, they will see the error in their repair and should be willing to make it right for you.

We should never stop learning and even a certified mechanic can learn something new from a DIY mechanic. If they aren't willing to fix their mistake, just let them know you will share your experience on Yelp how they don't stand behind their work. They'll probably change their mind after you say that. Don't just drop off your rig and hope they get it right this time. Tell them you want to watch them pull the axles and perform the grease test. It will be learning experience for you and them. Good luck!

 

[Drcoffee]

So is it as simple as the retainer be pressed on too far?

Umm. No. :redbrick:

Even if you press it on to the correct place, the seal does not seat correctly on the retainer. The seal instead, rides on the bevel. So lets explain this for the 100th time. Toyota redesigned the seal and the new seal does not reach the retainer shoulder. If you simply move the retainer inboard, it will make contact with the axle housing. You need to reverse the retainer to give more real estate for the seal to ride on. It also helps to go thicker on the gear oil. 75w90 is too thin. 75w140 works better to resist leaking.

Go back and read pages 1&2 and watch the video on page 1. Its not rocket science but an observation that helped me seal my leaking axles.

 

[Drcoffee]

Here's a pic of where my old seal was riding on the retainer. If you look at my pic and post from above, you will see where it was riding with the new seal. Dr coffee's solution has merit. I reversed the retainer picking up about 1/8" because of the bevel and moved the retainer about 1/16" closer to the differential. No leak yet. Thanks Dr Coffee.

Would you be so kind to RESIZE the picture?

 

[4Runnin2000]

I had this mod done when I did my axle seals a month ago. The guy (who happens to be on this forum) that pressed them in mentioned it would be good to do and so far.. Knock on wood...no leaks.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[pluton]

I guess my questions boil down to this. Should I give up on the independent shop? Is it a GUARANTEE that if I take it to a Toyota dealer they will get it right?
Thanks!

Short answer: NO.
Long answer: If you have the type of dealer that lets you talk to the technicians, then you can show them this citizen-developed info. If the dealer you select doesn't let you meet the techs, you have to believe whatever made-up sh-t the white coat(service writer) wants to tell you.

 

[reelamin]

What a great thread DOC. I appreciate the most you debated back with facts and asked for counter data to be provided. You must work for TRUMP!! BAM!! Great info...and if I need this I dang sure will try it. Just put new suspension (more wear on components due to stiffness) and absolutely a concern to happen....plus I have 257K on her. Thanks again!

 

[Bmellow]

Umm. No. :redbrick:

Even if you press it on to the correct place, the seal does not seat correctly on the retainer. The seal instead, rides on the bevel. So lets explain this for the 100th time. Toyota redesigned the seal and the new seal does not reach the retainer shoulder. If you simply move the retainer inboard, it will make contact with the axle housing. You need to reverse the retainer to give more real estate for the seal to ride on. It also helps to go thicker on the gear oil. 75w90 is too thin. 75w140 works better to resist leaking.

Go back and read pages 1&2 and watch the video on page 1. Its not rocket science but an observation that helped me seal my leaking axles.

Got it. Thanks.

I went back to the shop today and they are more than willing to do the grease test and install it to your instructions.

The one thing he was wondering is: If there is a 1mm gap between the retainer and the ABS ring, what keep the ABS ring from moving around and damaging the sensor? He was trying to recall from memory but to his recollection the retainer held the ABS Ring (rotor) snug against the c clip?

He mentioned that the ABS ring on these 4 Runners are much wider than the sensor and in addition to that maybe you calculated that the 1mm amount of play between the clip and the retainer wasn't big enough to make the ABS ring wobble and damage the sensor?

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

Got it. Thanks.

I went back to the shop today and they are more than willing to do the grease test and install it to your instructions.

The one thing he was wondering is: If there is a 1mm gap between the retainer and the ABS ring, what keep the ABS ring from moving around and damaging the sensor? He was trying to recall from memory but to his recollection the retainer held the ABS Ring (rotor) snug against the c clip?

He mentioned that the ABS ring on these 4 Runners are much wider than the sensor and in addition to that maybe you calculated that the 1mm amount of play between the clip and the retainer wasn't big enough to make the ABS ring wobble and damage the sensor?

The ABS ring is pressed on just like the retainers. I know for a fact it's not against the clip because the side of the ABS ring that goes towards the clip is the open end and will be on way too far. I remember JUST being able to get to the clip with the ABS ring on so you press the ring on until it's almost even with the clip.

I hope this answers your question because there are 2 retainers and I assume your talking about the outermost retainers

 

[thegipper]

I could be totally wrong but I think the sensor cannot hit the abs ring no matter where it is. On mine (all original seals ect), the ABS gear sits pretty much in the center of the hole where the sensor goes in. I don't think the sensor is deep enough to ever make contact with the ABS ring but again, I could be wrong.

 

[Bmellow]

The ABS ring is pressed on just like the retainers. I know for a fact it's not against the clip because the side of the ABS ring that goes towards the clip is the open end and will be on way too far. I remember JUST being able to get to the clip with the ABS ring on so you press the ring on until it's almost even with the clip.

I hope this answers your question because there are 2 retainers and I assume your talking about the outermost retainers

certainly makes sense if the ABS ring is pressed on, as well. He didn't recall it that way. He thought that it was a piece that simply slid over the machined part of the axle and was held in place by being sandwiched between the two retainers. But he did preface that with saying he simply just didn't remember off the top of his head.

I'm asking about the retainer that fits into the seal.

 

[mtbtim]

certainly makes sense if the ABS ring is pressed on, as well. He didn't recall it that way. He thought that it was a piece that simply slid over the machined part of the axle and was held in place by being sandwiched between the two retainers. But he did preface that with saying he simply just didn't remember off the top of his head.

I'm asking about the retainer that fits into the seal.

I just did this job for another forum member. The OEM orientation for the inner retainer and ABS gear is exactly as shown on the first post of this thread. The retainer and ABS gear are touching each other and are pressed onto the axle shaft with 4.5-5mm of polished axle showing. The second picture on this thread shows a gap between the ABS gear and inner retainer. Maybe Dr Coffee wanted the ABS gear perfectly centered with the hole on the axle housing. Since the OEM orientation had the two parts married together, I just pressed them on together at the same time. When we installed the axles, the ABS gear isn't perfectly centered on the hole but I don't think it has to be for the ABS sensor to work.

At the time my rig needed this job, I didn't have the tools to do it myself and I was worried a machine shop might damage my axles cutting off the parts like some forum members had experienced at their local machine shop. So, I paid out the ass at my local Toyota dealer and of course they botched the job. The tech doing the job didn't have the inner retainer in the right position and the seal on the driver side was leaking in less than 5000 miles later. Learning from this thread, I had them redo the job and flip the retainers for me. We started with 3mm of polished axle showing, did the grease test, and the lip of the seal wasn't centered on the polished surface of the retainer. We went to 4mm, and it still wasn't centered. At 5mm of polished axle showing, the lip of the seal was riding dead center on the polished surface of the retainer.

When I did the job yesterday, we found it a little difficult with the press to get retainer pressed on exactly 5mm. A little too much of a pump of the jack handle and you went too far and not enough of a pump and you came up short. Instead of being totally anal because time was a factor for the guy we were helping, we left one side at around 4.3mm of polished axle showing and the other side at around 5.3mm of polished axle showing. We did the grease test and the lip of the seal was riding just shy of center on both sides. If we had the time to dick with it, we could have got it perfect. But, it doesn't have to be perfect. You just need it close to center so you have enough polished retainer surface on either side of the seal lip so any bearing play won't cause the seal to ride on the unpolished bevel or ride off the shoulder of the retainer on the opposite side.

 

[Drcoffee]

I have seen another post recently by a member who had heated the inner retainer to expand it. And rather than pressing it, he slid it into place and let it cool to tighten back to the axle. Whatever works for you.

 

[phattyduck]

I just did this job for another forum member.

Hey, that was me!

Anyway, I'll try to remember to report back after a few more miles, maybe at the next oil change to make sure we are leak free back there.

-Charlie

 

[thegipper]

Is it just me or does anyone else question why Toyota uses a retainer for the seal to ride on? Why not just make the seal the size of the polished area on the axle? When I replaced my axle seals on my 95 ZJ, the axle seals just rode on a polished area of the axle. That jeep went 302k miles before any one of the axle seals started to leak. No special tools or presses or any of that crap.

I hope I never have to replace the seals on my 4R because everything I read about them is a PITA one way or another.

 

[Co4Fun]

Is it just me or does anyone else question why Toyota uses a retainer for the seal to ride on? Why not just make the seal the size of the polished area on the axle? When I replaced my axle seals on my 95 ZJ, the axle seals just rode on a polished area of the axle. That jeep went 302k miles before any one of the axle seals started to leak. No special tools or presses or any of that crap.

I hope I never have to replace the seals on my 4R because everything I read about them is a PITA one way or another.

Just did it it wasn't terrible but it'll be down a few days especially if you have a shop do the bearings and pressing. It is a pain you have to undo brakes and bleed them.

I'm hoping they last I triple checked and all alignment seemed spot on but I did not reverse the retainer. I would if they leak again here at some point too soon.

I agree though...after working on plenty of dana's on Jeeps myself I'm not a fan of this design overall.

 

[nobb]

Is it just me or does anyone else question why Toyota uses a retainer for the seal to ride on? Why not just make the seal the size of the polished area on the axle? When I replaced my axle seals on my 95 ZJ, the axle seals just rode on a polished area of the axle. That jeep went 302k miles before any one of the axle seals started to leak. No special tools or presses or any of that crap.

The retainer design sucks for serviceability, but the benefit is that the retainer can be replaced instead of the whole axle if over time the seal wears a groove onto the sealing surface. This often happens if there's contaminants or if the rubber seal hardens over time.

 

[Drcoffee]

Message to mtbtim:
Hey big guy, posting videos with pictures of a penis flashing isnt funny. Its sleezy and low class on family friendly forum. Take your videos off my thread. The mods aught to review your membership. And enough of the homo jokes.