A possible solution to leaking axle seals

[Wedgy]

Friday88, the photo is the updated seal on the right, old one on the left, see how the new design put the lip of the seal further in which makes it ride on the bevel of the retainer ?
Flipping the retainer eliminates the bevel and gives the seal more surface area to ride on. Page 1 of the thread shows it pretty well.

 

[Friday88]

Got it. I actually bought that kit, then sent it back after seeing the seals, because they were not the improved design. But they might work with the retainers in the original position. I didn't measure them, but I think they are a hybrid between the original geometry and the new Toyota geometry.



It's not worse than original, it's actually better, because it is more compliant. But, it does require flipping/repositioning the retainer to put the sealing lip in the right location. So it's better from the standpoint of performance, but "worse" from the standpoint that it requires more labor compared to just replacing the seal with an original design. It's a tradeoff .

So what brand seal actually has the correct original design geometry, if it isn't the parts available from Toyota? If I can get those, I could probably swap them in and leave my retainers the way they are.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

So what brand seal actually has the correct original design geometry, if it isn't the parts available from Toyota? If I can get those, I could probably swap them in without dealing with flipping the retainers myself.

I tried a National Seal brand from O'Reilly's, I can't recall the number. It had the original design geometry.

I'd say keep an eye on the ABS cavity, and if you don't see oil, don't lose sleep over it. I'm not sure how that would work if you do get a leak - I'm assuming it'll be on you, because the shop only did the press work, and won't take ownership of any issues with the seals.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

So what brand seal actually has the correct original design geometry, if it isn't the parts available from Toyota? If I can get those, I could probably swap them in and leave my retainers the way they are.

I actually did the Dr Coffee method and I'm good but it seems to me that you just have a little more "margin of error" when you flip the retainer.
Friday, if you do the grease test and it ends up in the middle of the retainer, you should be good no matter which way you put the retainer. Am I missing something here?

 

[Friday88]

I tried a National Seal brand from O'Reilly's, I can't recall the number. It had the original design geometry.

I'd say keep an eye on the ABS cavity, and if you don't see oil, don't lose sleep over it. I'm not sure how that would work if you do get a leak - I'm assuming it'll be on you, because the shop only did the press work, and won't take ownership of any issues with the seals.

I'm happy with what the shop did, I just don't want the seals leaking enough to require another brake/bearing job. I'll keep an eye on them and if they do leak, I'll just swap the seals with something else. at $10 a piece its not the end of the world.

 

[Friday88]

I actually did the Dr Coffee method and I'm good but it seems to me that you just have a little more "margin of error" when you flip the retainer.
Friday, if you do the grease test and it ends up in the middle of the retainer, you should be good no matter which way you put the retainer. Am I missing something here?

I think the entire thickness of the seal is supposed to be engaged on the retainer. They are saying that the line from the grease test only shows the position of the first edge of the seal. If the wrong seal is used, it's actual thickness is slightly thinner, leaving the inner edge unsealed due to the beveled edge.

so my retainers can be in the right position, but if a shit seal was used it still leaks. this is more of a seal problem than it is a retainer problem, but the way its described makes it seem quite a bit more complicated.

The root of the issue seems to be that Toyota revised their seals,inadvertently making them not work with the retainer correctly. Then after market brands probably copied the dimensions of the revised seals, and not the ones that actually were in the axles. What probably should happen is somebody should sell retainers that don't have the beveled edge at all. Then any mechanic could put it on and wouldn't have to be a forum researched guru

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

I think the entire thickness of the seal is supposed to be engaged on the retainer. They are saying that the line from the grease test only shows the position of the first edge of the seal. If the wrong seal is used, it's actual thickness is slightly thinner, leaving the inner edge unsealed due to the beveled edge.

so my retainers can be in the right position, but if a shit seal was used it still leaks. this is more of a seal problem than it is a retainer problem, but the way its described makes it seem quite a bit more complicated.

There is only one sealing edge in the seal and as long as this edge is on or near the center of the retainer you should be good.

 

[Friday88]

There is only one sealing edge in the seal and as long as this edge is on or near the center of the retainer you should be good.

if that's the case I don't know how any of these leak

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

if that's the case I don't know how any of these leak

Because if you put the retainer in the same position as the old one and either don't compensate for the new seal design by either flipping the retainer or moving the retainer inboard a little, it could leak.

 

[Friday88]

Because if you put the retainer in the same position as the old one and either don't compensate for the new seal design by either flipping the retainer or moving the retainer inboard a little, it could leak.

Hmmm. So the seals I installed must have the correct dimensions. Either that, or these trucks have varying axle dimensions, where some have a slightly deeper seal position :wacko:

 

[mtbtim]

Hmmm. So the seals I installed must have the correct dimensions. Either that, or these trucks have varying axle dimensions, where some have a slightly deeper seal position :wacko:

The whole point of threads like this one that Dr Coffee started is to learn from each other. OP, you should have demanded that the shop doing the work do it the way you wanted. I guarantee many people on this forum know more than than what most shops and Toyota dealership mechanics know about this repair. If you would have told them to flip the inner retainer and have it with 5mm of polished axle showing above the retainer, which is the OEM position, you would have been golden Pony Boy. Now you're in a situation that you might be doing this repair again sooner than you would have hoped for.

It was what I learned from Dr Coffee's thread that led me to pull my ABS sensors and confirm the job my local dealership did for me was done right. I found out my driver side was already leaking after less than 5k miles and I forced the dealership to redo the job the way I wanted. I basically schooled one of their top mechanics because the dude didn't even know how to perform a grease test to verify the inner retainer position had a good mating with the axle seal. So, like I said, DIYers can often know more than the paid guys. I've learned a ton from the contributors to this forum.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

If you would have told them to flip the inner retainer and have it with 5mm of polished axle showing above the retainer, which is the OEM position, you would have been golden Pony Boy.

Tim, you know I love you man, but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this - not because it's wrong (it may not be), but because it's only right if your assumption is right. The assumption being that the seal he used is a new Toyota seal. But he did not. He used a different seal, whose design is closer to the original Toyota design. For those seals, he should NOT have flipped the retainer.

No one should be recommending flipping the retainer as a blind recommendation - it is only for the new Toyota seal design. It's critical to make that distinction.

 

[mtbtim]

Tim, you know I love you man, but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this - not because it's wrong (it may not be), but because it's only right if your assumption is right. The assumption being that the seal he used is a new Toyota seal. But he did not. He used a different seal, whose design is closer to the original Toyota design. For those seals, he should NOT have flipped the retainer.

No one should be recommending flipping the retainer as a blind recommendation - it is only for the new Toyota seal design. It's critical to make that distinction.

I didn't catch that he used an aftermarket seal. But, that was a mistake on the OP's part. The Toyota seal is superior to aftermarket designs. The only problem is the seal lip sits 2mm more inboard now and you have to compensate for that. When you get one of the Toyota seals in your hand and start messing with it, you quickly realize how good it is due to it's pliability. As the bearing age and develop more play, the pliability of the seal really comes into play for how long the seal will stay leak-free. Toyota OEM isn't always the best bet, but in this case, it definitely is.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

I didn't catch that he used an aftermarket seal. But, that was a mistake on the OP's part. The Toyota seal is superior to aftermarket designs. The only problem is the seal lip sits 2mm more inboard now and you have to compensate for that. When you get one of the Toyota seals in your hand and start messing with it, you quickly realize how good it is due to it's pliability. As the bearing age and develop more play, the pliability of the seal really comes into play for how long the seal will stay leak-free. Toyota OEM isn't always the best bet, but in this case, it definitely is.

Agreed, the new Toyota seal design is better than other options. But if done correctly, original design replacement seals would work too. So I would not go out and tear out the seal that Friday just put in, especially because if he did decide to replace it with the new seal design, he probably would have to flip the retainer to accommodate the new sealing lip location.

Anyway, we're on the same page regarding that. I just want folks to be aware that "flip the retainer" goes hand in hand with "new Toyota seal" - not ALL new seals.

 

[Mudeprived]

I tried a National Seal brand from O'Reilly's, I can't recall the number. It had the original design geometry.

I'd say keep an eye on the ABS cavity, and if you don't see oil, don't lose sleep over it. I'm not sure how that would work if you do get a leak - I'm assuming it'll be on you, because the shop only did the press work, and won't take ownership of any issues with the seals.

This?

https://www.amazon.com/National-196...99:toyota:4runner&keywords=national+seal+1960

I have had good luck with National seals in the past and would use them on the 4runner if they are the original design.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

This?

https://www.amazon.com/National-196...99:toyota:4runner&keywords=national+seal+1960

I have had good luck with National seals in the past and would use them on the 4runner if they are the original design.

Ha, you beat me to it. I just recalled that it was 1960. That's the one!

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

[Drcoffee]

You know pages 1-3 are very informative. 4runner4leon you could not BE more wrong. I started with National brand and Timken aftemarket seal and the seal was nowhere near the retainer shoulder. I love debating with jamokes who cant get their fingers dirty, take the problems to boneheaded mechanics and wouldnt know how to use a ruler, never mind a dial caliper. The aftermarket seals are made in china and are not made to the correct specs. Watch the frigin video I posted. It doesnt require you to read at all.

And once again the most defensive posters cant be bothered to pull the abs sensor to confirm if its leaking. They just ride the keyboard and whip it like a $2 mule. Friday, you are just one of the many uninformed blowhard know-nothings who hijack threads and bluster without having a clue. Clearly you love your mechanic. Time will tell. But we already know you wont come back and admit you were wrong. Dudes like you never do. This thread is littered with the likes of you.

And yes most repair shops are doing it wrong. They press the retainer down too far and use cheap seals. Its months later when the gear oil hits the brakes and then the response is the axle is bent. Look across the web. You wont find this info anywhere else. Its not common knowledge.

Have a nice day

 

[Mudeprived]

Ha, you beat me to it. I just recalled that it was 1960. That's the one!

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

Thanks. I have done the half-press method (pressing them in half way) and the driver's side has not been holding up (passenger side works) so I will try a National old-style seal.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

You know pages 1-3 are very informative. 4runner4leon you could not BE more wrong. I started with National brand and one other aftemarket seal and the seal was nowhere near the retainer shoulder.

I read all the pages and watched the video. What I walked away with was that a) the original Toyota seal design was too stiff, which is why they redesigned it; b) the new seal design, while improved because of compliance, put the sealing lip in the wrong place, which is why it makes sense to flip the retainer. I didn't see anything in the video, or in the writeup, to say that the original seal design would not work with the original retainer installation - maybe I missed it. Given that most original seals don't leak until well over 100,000 miles, I'd say that the original combination, even if not ideal, did OK.

Now, it is possible that some aftermarket seals are crap and won't seal. I said it before and will say it again - my 1960 replacement seal did not seal well, so I took it out and replaced with new Toyota design. But other seals do seal just fine, and do place the sealing lip in the sweet spot of the retainer. This one does that (on the right):

I love debating with jamokes who cant get their fingers dirty, take the problems to boneheaded mechanics and wouldnt know how to use a ruler, never mind a dial caliper.

I got my fingers dirty enough:

 

[Mudeprived]

I read all the pages and watched the video. What I walked away with was that a) the original Toyota seal design was too stiff, which is why they redesigned it; b) the new seal design, while improved because of compliance, put the sealing lip in the wrong place, which is why it makes sense to flip the retainer. I didn't see anything in the video, or in the writeup, to say that the original seal design would not work with the original retainer installation - maybe I missed it. Given that most original seals don't leak until well over 100,000 miles, I'd say that the original combination, even if not ideal, did OK.

Now, it is possible that some aftermarket seals are crap and won't seal. I said it before and will say it again - my 1960 replacement seal did not seal well, so I took it out and replaced with new Toyota design. But other seals do seal just fine, and do place the sealing lip in the sweet spot of the retainer. This one does that (on the right):





I got my fingers dirty enough:

What seal is that on the right?