AC system oil

[eanema]

Hi All,
Over the past winter the AC system in my '98 SR5 seems to have shit the bed. I've purchased an AC manifold gauge set and found there was very little pressure in the system. So I added compressed air (I a aware that this will have water in it) to see if it would hold the pressure. I made sure the compressor was working by enabling the AC for 10 seconds or so while I checked the gagues, then sut the vehicle off and left it for maybe 15 minutes. Still pressure, but the next day there was none. Obviously a leak.

My intention is to vacuum out the air, and put a can of Red Tek UV dye (RED TEK - DyeCharge) into the system to help me find the leak. This stuff is basically propane/isobutane with UV dye added to it.

Assuming I can find the leak and repair it then I will need to evacuate the system and install R134a.

My questions is this: how much oil and of what variety should be added?

I have read through the FSM for a 2002 4Runner but there doesn't seem to be any specification about how much and what type of oil ot use. Also, should I assume the system is completely empty? Is there an oil drain and fill plug somewhere?

Thanks for all the help guys!

 

[mtbtim]

When you develop a leak in your AC system, the R134A refrigerant leaks out but it's usually fairly slow out of a connection with a bad o-ring and you don't really lose compressor oil. If you had a massive failure, like in a collision, and say your AC condenser was smashed, you add in the suggested amount of compressor oil for the component you replaced and the FSM will tell you how much.

Since you charged your system with compressed air, you saturated the desiccants in your receiver/dryer so you will need to replace that. Luckily they are very affordable. The suggested amount of compressor oil for the receiver dryer is 20cc. The compressor oil you need is ND-OIL 8 or equivalent.

The label under the hood that's near the radiator will tell you how much refrigerant the system holds by weight and it will also tell you the type of compressor oil you need.

This video may help you out:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zlRE0Zeeyrc" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Wedgy]

Regardless of you blowing air in it I would replace the receiver/drier anyways as after 20 years it is due, and as Tim stated they are cheap.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog...tioning,a/c+receiver+drier+/+accumulator,6972

 

[LittleCaesar]

AC auto systems loose refrigerant over time due to many factors. I have used PAG 46 just for coating new O rings.

Did you add any refrigerant first? Considering I can get a can at Wall World for $5, I usually can hear where the leak is coming from. Or hook a vacuum to it and if it is big enough you can hear the air being drawn in.

 

[TheDurk]

I use the quantities specified in this link:

A/C Compressor PAG Oil Application Chart

Use the following guidelines for replacing compressor oil when changing A/C components:

Compressor.........1.4 oz
Condenser..........1.0 oz
Evaporator.........1.5 oz
Accumulator........1.0 oz
Hoses..............1.0 oz

The same site also specs PAG 46 for our Denso Compressors. So I just add the amount of PAG 46 oil for whatever component I replaced to the 1 oz. for the Receiver/Dryer aka Accumulator, and chsrge with the weight of R-134a on the label on the truck. Denso also specs ND-8 as PAG 46 with additives for Ri-134a.

http://www.denso-am.com/media/corporate-news/2017/august-2017-newsletter-compressor-oil-and-refrigerant-mixing-old-and-new/

DENSO uses ND-oil 8 for its R134a type refrigerant compressors, a PAG 46 oil. The new refrigerant type uses ND-oil 12, also a PAG 46 oil but with additives specifically for the R1234yf type refrigerant.

I've had good results with this in both the 4Runner and my son's '99 BMW (same Denso A/C compressor, believe it or not.)

 

[eanema]

Hey, thanks a lot guys, there's a ton of good information here.

One question though, if the refrigerant just leaked out of an O-ring, will the UV-dye make it out the same place? I expect it will, but since the charge only lasts a few hours I'll have to run the engine right away after adding and hope it leeks out in that time.

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[BamaDrewski]

Hey, thanks a lot guys, there's a ton of good information here.

One question though, if the refrigerant just leaked out of an O-ring, will the UV-dye make it out the same place? I expect it will, but since the charge only lasts a few hours I'll have to run the engine right away after adding and hope it leeks out in that time.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Hate to say it but after 20+ years (yours is a 1998 right?) you probably have multiple issues going on. The AC systems in our rigs do not last forever. For example, when I did my entire rebuild, I found the condenser coils (in front of the radiator) had virtually disintegrated into nothing. The evaporator core was shot and the evap box was full of crap. Over time, the system will fail and I think 20+ years on the original system is the culprit. Would hate to see you dump in leak detector just to find the system is shot. A guy on here rebuilt his entire system for $466.84 and his time and labor. (Look at this post: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...-replacement-2000-toyota-4runner-limited.html)

Just might suggest if you intend to keep and run this rig for a few more years, rebuild the entire system......

 

[eanema]

Ahhhhh, I still don't want to give up on the hope of a quick fix! Lol,I've been dumping lots of parts $$$ into this since I've bought it. I love doing the work, but it's expensive to love an older vehicle...

Your right though, if I can't find a leak it's probably going to want a complete rebuild. And that $400-$500 is USD. To do the job north of the border you can multiply that by at least 2x. Parts here are stupid expensive. I wonder if I'll ever be able to catch up with maintenance in order to fix some of the less pressing issues! Haha, my rocker panels or starting to become Swiss cheese...

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[TheDurk]

Ahhhhh, I still don't want to give up on the hope of a quick fix! Lol,I've been dumping lots of parts $$$ into this since I've bought it. I love doing the work, but it's expensive to love an older vehicle...

Your right though, if I can't find a leak it's probably going to want a complete rebuild. And that $400-$500 is USD. To do the job north of the border you can multiply that by at least 2x. Parts here are stupid expensive. I wonder if I'll ever be able to catch up with maintenance in order to fix some of the less pressing issues! Haha, my rocker panels or starting to become Swiss cheese...

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

I'm with you. I have a leaky evaporator, so I am going to replace that and the expansion valve, which makes sense to do at the same time--basically everything behind the firewall, plus the receiver dryer, of course. At some future date, I can always do the front half. The additional cost to me is just a few cans of R-134a and a receiver/dryer. The factory Denso compressor could easily outlive the truck.

By the way, your dye will never expose an evaporator leak. I invested in an electronic leak detector, and it has paid for itself. It found the evaporator leak easily.

 

[eanema]

Thanks for the tip! I assumed those electronic leak detectors were very expensive, but I just bought one for $25 CAD. Not bad! And your right, the stuff behind the glove box will never have eyes on the UV dye, so this should definitely help find the leak. Good call.

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[eanema]

[MENTION=10169]TheDurk[/MENTION], just FYI I charged the system with a mix of propane and R134 (R134 is not cheap because I can't buy it in Canada - I had to order it from the USA and hope that who ever shipped it didn't list what it was) I found the leak by stuffing the "nose" of the leak detector right against the firewall above the cooling unit. I couldn't find any other leeks in the system, so I think I'm going to do the same as you: replace the evaporator, expansion valve, receiver/dryer and any O-rings that I come into contact with - I believe there is 9 of them in total for the evaporator, expansion valve and dryer.

The dealership wanted ~$650 for the evaporator, $80 for the dryer and $200 for the expansion valve. Obviously that's ridiculous, Rockauto gave me all three Denso parts and an O-ring set for $200...

Thanks for all the help

 

[BamaDrewski]

[MENTION=10169]TheDurk[/MENTION], just FYI I charged the system with a mix of propane and R134 (R134 is not cheap because I can't buy it in Canada - I had to order it from the USA and hope that who ever shipped it didn't list what it was) I found the leak by stuffing the "nose" of the leak detector right against the firewall above the cooling unit. I couldn't find any other leeks in the system, so I think I'm going to do the same as you: replace the evaporator, expansion valve, receiver/dryer and any O-rings that I come into contact with - I believe there is 9 of them in total for the evaporator, expansion valve and dryer.

The dealership wanted ~$650 for the evaporator, $80 for the dryer and $200 for the expansion valve. Obviously that's ridiculous, Rockauto gave me all three Denso parts and an O-ring set for $200...

Thanks for all the help

I am curious....why are Toyota parts (Even after market) so much more expensive in Canada? After all, isn't NAFTA supposed to equalize all that out?? Can you Canadians buy from American websites for delivery to Canada or is there some kind of customs/toll involved?

 

[TheDurk]

[MENTION=10169]TheDurk[/MENTION], just FYI I charged the system with a mix of propane and R134 (R134 is not cheap because I can't buy it in Canada - I had to order it from the USA and hope that who ever shipped it didn't list what it was) I found the leak by stuffing the "nose" of the leak detector right against the firewall above the cooling unit. I couldn't find any other leeks in the system, so I think I'm going to do the same as you: replace the evaporator, expansion valve, receiver/dryer and any O-rings that I come into contact with - I believe there is 9 of them in total for the evaporator, expansion valve and dryer.

The dealership wanted ~$650 for the evaporator, $80 for the dryer and $200 for the expansion valve. Obviously that's ridiculous, Rockauto gave me all three Denso parts and an O-ring set for $200...

Thanks for all the help

Mine would only alarm going in the center panel vent, although I didn't try where you did. I just stopped then.

What Denso p/n did you use for the valve? I see two: 475-2005 (brass) and 475-0505(aluminum). The aluminum appears to be slightly more expensive.

 

[HiluxSurf SSR-G]

OT:
would replacing the dryer/receiver with a bigger one than the original make any improvements with regards to cooling efficiency? what would be the cons other than cost of the dryer/receiver unit?



Thanks!

 

[SpidermanGeek]

I am curious....why are Toyota parts (Even after market) so much more expensive in Canada? After all, isn't NAFTA supposed to equalize all that out?? Can you Canadians buy from American websites for delivery to Canada or is there some kind of customs/toll involved?

They are more expensive because of many factors.

1. Shipping. Our Land is vast with many remote locations. It takes more resources to get the things where they need to go. Remember, the population of our entire country is less than the population of the State of California.
2. Because of the same reason above, demand for anything is a lot lower. Couple that with Toyota Reliability, and we don't go through parts as much as you guys would, even though our climate is generally tougher on vehicles.
3. Subsequently, there's not much need for pricing to be competitive.
4. Exchange Rate. Currently, take whatever US price you want and multiply that by 1.33. That should be your first basis to compare the prices. If we're paying via Credit Card, most credit card companies charge a Foreign Currency Exchange fee on top of the Exchange Rate itself.
5. Taxes. Everything is taxed at a higher rate here. Including fuel. Which means, getting parts from Japan to wherever in Canada (as with my first point) just costs more. So that accounts for MSRP of items, but then you gotta add sales tax on top of that. Sales Tax varies by Province, but the Country average is about 11%.

Those are some of the reasons.

As to why we don't just buy the parts from the US and have them shipped, you're pretty much bang on. With Exchange Rate and Shipping costs, we don't end up saving a whole lot. Within the US, a lot of retailers will absorb the shipping costs and can ship things for cheap or even free. Crossing a border adds to that, significantly, since you are adding other companies to the shipping itself. Something could be being delivered by FedEx for example, but FedEx USA will ship to the border, then FedEx Canada takes it from there. Not to mention brokerage fees in some cases (Never, ever ship anything to Canada using UPS unless you really hate the buyer. They are thieves with their brokerage fees.). There's also the added cost of going through customs. Packages go through more processing before it gets to us. That costs.

Whenever I need to purchase something that is only available to me from buying it through the US, I always consider having those items shipped to the UPS Store in Ogdensburg NY. They offer a short-term storage solution for Canadians. They'll receive the package in my name and hold onto it until I can come pick it up myself. Then, customs and other fees becomes my responsibility. It takes some coordinating to make it worth while though as Ogdensburg is about an hour and a half drive from my place and I have to pay bridge tolls both ways. And I still need to pay sales tax on the items at the border. Factor in Exchange Rate + the small UPS store storage fee... and the savings are marginal at best usually, unless I can coordinate and lump multiple purchase/orders in one trip. That takes effort, lol.

 

[zachary.mikel]

I see you've found RockAuto already, OP, good. I had some compressor noises due to a loose pulley, so I ended up replacing my entire system except for A/C lines a few days ago.

Be sure to invest in a good vacuum pump to get that fresh system sucked down. I was amazed to watch steam coming out of my pump after the install. I was extremely careful to cap off every line and hole, but you can't keep air out of the lines!

DENSO compressors come with the proper PAG 46 oil for our trucks and the correct amount. However like others have said, if you aren't replacing the whole system or flushing it, you'll have residual oil left in the drier, condenser, lines, and evaporator. DENSO has some nice info that shows what percentage of your system oil resides in what component:

Practical tip on compressor oil - Denso

I followed this guy's youtube video for recharging, it was super helpful!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdq8JAlct6s

 

[eanema]

Mine would only alarm going in the center panel vent, although I didn't try where you did. I just stopped then.

What Denso p/n did you use for the valve? I see two: 475-2005 (brass) and 475-0505(aluminum). The aluminum appears to be slightly more expensive.

I dont see an option for the aluminum valve, just the brass one - 475-2005. I wonder why your seeing it? Don't know what the difference would be...


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[eanema]

OT:
would replacing the dryer/receiver with a bigger one than the original make any improvements with regards to cooling efficiency? what would be the cons other than cost of the dryer/receiver unit?



Thanks!

Don't quote me on this, I'm not an expert but I would expect the pros of using a bigger dryer would be that you have a larger capacity to remove moisture from your AC system. The con would be that you would require more coolant to fill the system, so a bit more cash.

The dryer basically acts as a resivour to hold the compressed liquid coolant before its passed to the expansion valve to absorb heat from the cabin air and vaporize. I personally don't see much point in increasing the size - but like I said, not an expert.

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[BamaDrewski]

They are more expensive because of many factors.

1. Shipping. Our Land is vast with many remote locations. It takes more resources to get the things where they need to go. Remember, the population of our entire country is less than the population of the State of California.
2. Because of the same reason above, demand for anything is a lot lower. Couple that with Toyota Reliability, and we don't go through parts as much as you guys would, even though our climate is generally tougher on vehicles.
3. Subsequently, there's not much need for pricing to be competitive.
4. Exchange Rate. Currently, take whatever US price you want and multiply that by 1.33. That should be your first basis to compare the prices. If we're paying via Credit Card, most credit card companies charge a Foreign Currency Exchange fee on top of the Exchange Rate itself.
5. Taxes. Everything is taxed at a higher rate here. Including fuel. Which means, getting parts from Japan to wherever in Canada (as with my first point) just costs more. So that accounts for MSRP of items, but then you gotta add sales tax on top of that. Sales Tax varies by Province, but the Country average is about 11%.

Those are some of the reasons.

As to why we don't just buy the parts from the US and have them shipped, you're pretty much bang on. With Exchange Rate and Shipping costs, we don't end up saving a whole lot. Within the US, a lot of retailers will absorb the shipping costs and can ship things for cheap or even free. Crossing a border adds to that, significantly, since you are adding other companies to the shipping itself. Something could be being delivered by FedEx for example, but FedEx USA will ship to the border, then FedEx Canada takes it from there. Not to mention brokerage fees in some cases (Never, ever ship anything to Canada using UPS unless you really hate the buyer. They are thieves with their brokerage fees.). There's also the added cost of going through customs. Packages go through more processing before it gets to us. That costs.

Whenever I need to purchase something that is only available to me from buying it through the US, I always consider having those items shipped to the UPS Store in Ogdensburg NY. They offer a short-term storage solution for Canadians. They'll receive the package in my name and hold onto it until I can come pick it up myself. Then, customs and other fees becomes my responsibility. It takes some coordinating to make it worth while though as Ogdensburg is about an hour and a half drive from my place and I have to pay bridge tolls both ways. And I still need to pay sales tax on the items at the border. Factor in Exchange Rate + the small UPS store storage fee... and the savings are marginal at best usually, unless I can coordinate and lump multiple purchase/orders in one trip. That takes effort, lol.

Man, I appreciate the info. I had no idea Canada's population was so small for the massive land area it covers. I was surprised your Custom's process is dinging you on everything coming into the country. I guess we in the US overlook the "customs fees" as we see Canada as "just next door". I lived overseas for many years and it was brutal there (Scandinavia). They would charge customs duties for anything they could dream of....

 

[Sarasota 3rd Gen]

1.4 oz of oil for a compressor sounds really low. I was reading about 4 oz of oil in my research but I'm still looking to see what the factory owners manual says.