Adjustable Suspension

[Bigbugberg]

Ok, correct me if I’m off the mark here.

I have a 2010 TE +KDSS. The front rides fine but is low. The back end seems harsh on bumps so I’m looking for a different setup. I’ve looked at Icon, Radflow, OME, ToyTec, etc. The big dollar setups have adjustable springs.

Adjustable suspension, I call BS. Of the suspension options I have seen you have the ability to crank down on the spring but the shock is not adjustable for the damping. Why would you want to vary the spring rate without the ability to modify the compression and rebound damping to match the spring rate? My motorcycles (2010 KTM 690 Enduro R and 2009 KTM 400XCW) have higher spring rates front and rear. To keep from feeling like a pogo stick, I need to increase rebound damping and decrease compression damping. I won’t delve into mid-valving. I don’t want to fork out a bunch of dough on some boingers only to find my TE bouncing down the road.

I guess I’m at the mercy of the vendor to have the right shock damping according to the spring rate provided. Sooooo to me the ability to adjust the spring is a waste of money, overly complicated for no reason, and may actually provide a worse suspension than initially thought.

Feel free to flame me, or better, provide a logical argument to the contrary.

 

[philsey]

.... some boingers ....

ound:

 

[1engineer]

I would provide a logical argument but unfortunately by you comparing a 4,700 lb vehicle suspension to a 400 lb motorcycle suspension is illogical and absurd.

First of all, most higher end vehicle shocks are fully tunable by changing the orifices and damping but unless you are racing in the BAJA you usually don't need to change anything. Why? Think for a minute: What is the heaviest load placed on a motorcycle? You of course! And "you" weigh "X" lbs while "I" weigh 250 lbs. I weigh more than 1/2 the empty weight of the bike! Also "you" will ride in a certain terrain at a certain speed while "I" will ride that same bike in totally different terrain at a different speed, hence the needed tunability of a motorcycle (or mtb) suspension. With a 4,700 lb vehicle you or I make up about 1/20 of the weight, not 1/2! The vehicle really does not know you are there. Even when you change the springs and load it down with people and gear chances are the shocks will still do just fine unadjusted. Like I said, if you are going to race the thing go get you some King shocks and tune them to your heart's content. Hope that's logical enough.

 

[harper7]

Ok, correct me if I’m off the mark here.

I have a 2010 TE +KDSS. The front rides fine but is low. The back end seems harsh on bumps so I’m looking for a different setup. I’ve looked at Icon, Radflow, OME, ToyTec, etc. The big dollar setups have adjustable springs.

Adjustable suspension, I call BS. Of the suspension options I have seen you have the ability to crank down on the spring but the shock is not adjustable for the damping. Why would you want to vary the spring rate without the ability to modify the compression and rebound damping to match the spring rate? My motorcycles (2010 KTM 690 Enduro R and 2009 KTM 400XCW) have higher spring rates front and rear. To keep from feeling like a pogo stick, I need to increase rebound damping and decrease compression damping. I won’t delve into mid-valving. I don’t want to fork out a bunch of dough on some boingers only to find my TE bouncing down the road.

I guess I’m at the mercy of the vendor to have the right shock damping according to the spring rate provided. Sooooo to me the ability to adjust the spring is a waste of money, overly complicated for no reason, and may actually provide a worse suspension than initially thought.

Feel free to flame me, or better, provide a logical argument to the contrary.

Icon,King and I believe FOX and Radflo make adjustable dampening CO's and shocks for our trucks if that's your thing but they are not cheap.They are all custom valved for the weight of our trucks even when they are not the adjustable ones and more the happy with my Icons for over 3 years now and hav'nt bounced down the road yet.

These are the Omega's from Icon that are adjustable and that a few people on here run......Omega Modular Bypass Shocks | Icon Vehicle Dynamics -

 

[Bigbugberg]

Sorry, the comparison IS valid because damping is resistance of oscillation regardless of the weight involved. However, you corroborated my point that adjustment is unnecessary if the damping match the spring rate.

I would provide a logical argument but unfortunately by you comparing a 4,700 lb vehicle suspension to a 400 lb motorcycle suspension is illogical and absurd.

First of all, most higher end vehicle shocks are fully tunable by changing the orifices and damping but unless you are racing in the BAJA you usually don't need to change anything. Why? Think for a minute: What is the heaviest load placed on a motorcycle? You of course! And "you" weigh "X" lbs while "I" weigh 250 lbs. I weigh more than 1/2 the empty weight of the bike! Also "you" will ride in a certain terrain at a certain speed while "I" will ride that same bike in totally different terrain at a different speed, hence the needed tunability of a motorcycle (or mtb) suspension. With a 4,700 lb vehicle you or I make up about 1/20 of the weight, not 1/2! The vehicle really does not know you are there. Even when you change the springs and load it down with people and gear chances are the shocks will still do just fine unadjusted. Like I said, if you are going to race the thing go get you some King shocks and tune them to your heart's content. Hope that's logical enough.

 

[Bigbugberg]

I'm not looking for completely adjustable shocks. I'm looking for springs and shocks where the damping is correct for the spring rate. If they are correct, there is no reason to adjust.

Any TE +KDSS owners in Phx area having after market suspension willing to give me a test ride? PM me if you are willing.

 

[KCcarguy]

First, there are dozens of guys on here who will tell you their aftermarket suspensions are great. And OMEs are non-adjustable and packaged with matched springs/ shocks/ struts for vehicle use and load.....problem solved, right?

 

[harper7]

And a press release from Icon just today that they make their Remote Res shocks now with an adjustable dampening option so you can dial in how you like it or to match the type of terrain your running that are cheaper then their Omegas...... ICON CDC Upgrade "Press Release" - Toyota FJ Cruiser Forum

 

[eddiebx]

If you're looking for a "matched set" and don't want adjustable coilovers, do as [MENTION=66624]KCcarguy[/MENTION] said, as I think OME is one of the only few companies that advertise their springs and shocks as being strategically paired with one another.

But if I am understanding your issue correctly, you're probably not going to be happy with anything aftermarket since you're saying that the front rides fine and the rear is already too stiff from the factory.

For the front, I don't think there are that many spring/shock options out there that rides exactly like stock while also raising the front end. Maybe you should consider a spacer, if that floats your boat.

As far as the rear, I have not seen any aftermarket rear springs that are lower spring rate than stock. So I don't really know what you can do to soften it up besides carrying more constant weight back there

 

[marlin driver]

Hey OP:
The aftermarket shocks are height-adjustable, but the spring rate doesn't change. If the dampening is correct out of the box, it will still be correct no matter the ride height.
FWIW, my toytec ultimate suspension is a significant
upgrade from the OEM setup. I raced a FF in SCCA, so I do understand fully adjustable shocks.
By the way, no need to be a tool when asking a question.
Hope that helps.

 

[Bigbugberg]

I apologize for the high tool factor.

By the way, no need to be a tool when asking a question.
Hope that helps.

 

[1engineer]

Sorry, the comparison IS valid because damping is resistance of oscillation regardless of the weight involved. However, you corroborated my point that adjustment is unnecessary if the damping match the spring rate.

Without a load (weight) of some type, oscillation will never occur. The bigger the load, the greater the amplitude potential of oscillation, and the greater damping is required for stability. Again, check your facts. Harmonics can come into play but not in this application.

 

[Bigbugberg]

I agree with you. maybe my point is unclear.
An adjustable spring basically only changes ride height by preload. And if the spring is preloaded it would require more rebound damping which the majority of shocks do not provide.

Without a load (weight) of some type, oscillation will never occur. The bigger the load, the greater the amplitude potential of oscillation, and the greater damping is required for stability. Again, check your
facts. Harmonics can come into play but not in this application.

 

[harper7]

I agree with you. maybe my point is unclear.
An adjustable spring basically only changes ride height by preload. And if the spring is preloaded it would require more rebound damping which the majority of shocks do not provide.

True,the more you preload the front spring in the CO as in raise the front CO's by dialing in more lift on adjustable CO's the greater the spring rate will increase. That is due to physics and Hooke's law......Hooke's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I just raised my front Co's about 3/8"" due to a 1/2" longer rear springs with higher spring rates that I changed out and it is noticeably stiffer and a little more bouncy over large bumps.

That is why adjustable rebound and dampening for the shock would be an advantage but comes at a premium. The companies that make the aftermarket non adjustable dampening suspensions do a pretty good job at matching for the average user though and not many complaints and the ride is still far superior to stock IMO.

 

[1engineer]

True,the more you preload the front spring in the CO as in raise the front CO's by dialing in more lift on adjustable CO's the greater the spring rate will increase. That is due to physics and Hooke's law......Hooke's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I just raised my front Co's about 3/8"" due to a 1/2" longer rear springs with higher spring rates that I changed out and it is noticeably stiffer and a little more bouncy over large bumps.

That is why adjustable rebound and dampening for the shock would be an advantage but comes at a premium. The companies that make the aftermarket non adjustable dampening suspensions do a pretty good job at matching for the average user though and not many complaints and the ride is still far superior to stock IMO.

[MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION]'s post reminded me of another thread not too long ago that has some good information in it. Here you go: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/135713-weight-increase-vs-spring-rate-increase.html

 

[marlin driver]

I agree with you. maybe my point is unclear.
An adjustable spring basically only changes ride height by preload. And if the spring is preloaded it would require more rebound damping which the majority of shocks do not provide.

That's an important assumption and I don't think it is correct. The shock absorber is not topped out when the vehicle is at rest, so a height adjustment should not affect preload. You are moving the available spring travel up or down, but still within the overall shock travel.
This relates to what is probably the biggest drawback to a spacer lift, which is that you run out of travel and top out the stock shocks. Aftermarket shocks are longer.

 

[Bigbugberg]

So what you're effectively saying is the upper and lower spring plate is movable up or down the shock body? No preload?

 

[03_4x4Runner]

When you say the back is harsh, is this a low speeds or high speeds? In my experience the factory setup is much smoother on trails in the desert at low speeds. Any aftermarket setup I have rode in is much harsher at low speeds but work great a unrealistic high speeds down long washes etc.

 

[marlin driver]

So what you're effectively saying is the upper and lower spring plate is movable up or down the shock body? No preload?

If I raise the adjustment ring (at lower spring plate) on my Bilstein/Toytecs by 1/2 inch, the upper spring plate goes up the same amount. The spring length doesn't change, so I don't see how preload could be affected.

 

[Bigbugberg]

When you say the back is harsh, is this a low speeds or high speeds?

It's strange. Buzzing down some washboard the front and the rear do pretty well; the front seems not to float and the rear doesn't want to swap out, it actually feels like it's getting traction on the washboard. But hit a bigger bump (square edge not a dip) slow or at speed and the front is ok but the back just bounces like its oversprung or compression is over damped.