Alignment Advice Needed before Tomorrow

[jnance50]

So I went for an alignment at a local shop and as it stands, Camber and Toe are withing spec.

However, my Caster is 1.5 on the drivers side and *gasp* -0.47 on the passenger side (2.0-4.0 is factory tolerance). It pulls to the right, and the steering wheel is not aligned center (off slightly to the right).

The shop said that if I took it to Toyota and they could get it right, they'd refund me the cost I had to pay them.

A little about the truck - I just installed the Daystar 2.5 / 1.5 lift kit (spacers) and it currently has Spidertrax wheel spacers. It only has 11k miles on the truck - never in an accident.

Is there any reason that you guys can think of that Toyota couldn't get it in spec? Do I really need adjustable Upper Control Arms just to get to the minimum spec of 2.0? If they can't I'm out $200 for a still wrong alignment (first shop charged me $80, Dealer wants $110).

Thanks in advance.

 

[RubiconSS]

To a degree it depends on the vehicle (that's why there is a range) and how high the lift actually went. I put a 3" OME lift on my Rubicon and went up 2.5"
Had no trouble getting back into spec.
Then I put a 3" OME lift on my Fj and went up 5.5" could not get the caster back into spec for nothin'.
Vehicles will naturally drift/pull right especially with larger tires or more aggressive tread just because the camber of the road surface (sloping right for drainage) it's a matter of degree of severity.
I lean more towards shops with good equipment and experience with lifted/modded rigs -vs- just a Toyota dealer which may have never seen a lifted rig for fear of warranty issues.
Some Toyota shops do have good ol boys that know about lifts and tires and can massage the rig into spec. It's hit or miss. Modding ain't cheap and it isn't without it's challenges. This is one of those.

 

[jnance50]

Understood that modding isn't cheap - I'm at nearly $4k already - but $200 to get an alignment right is outrageous modded or not. The lift was only 2.5" front, 1.5" rear. Before the lift, same tires and all it did not drift or pull. This isn't my first rodeo, but it is my first Toyota.

I've lifted a dozen vehicles in the past - but I'm looking for someone with experience on this vehicle to know whether or not getting the caster closer to spec is possible, before I waste the extra money taking it to Toyota.

Unfortunately in Ma - lifting is not popular and there are not a lot of shops with experience in this. The shop I went to I was recommended and they had a brand new 4wheel laser alignment machine - I just thought maybe there was something to this they did not know that the dealership might.

If the answer is to drop $500 on adjustable UCAs for a simple $140/1.5" lift JUST to get the alignment near spec, that sucks.

To a degree it depends on the vehicle (that's why there is a range) and how high the lift actually went. I put a 3" OME lift on my Rubicon and went up 2.5"
Had no trouble getting back into spec.
Then I put a 3" OME lift on my Fj and went up 5.5" could not get the caster back into spec for nothin'.
Vehicles will naturally drift/pull right especially with larger tires or more aggressive tread just because the camber of the road surface (sloping right for drainage) it's a matter of degree of severity.
I lean more towards shops with good equipment and experience with lifted/modded rigs -vs- just a Toyota dealer which may have never seen a lifted rig for fear of warranty issues.
Some Toyota shops do have good ol boys that know about lifts and tires and can massage the rig into spec. It's hit or miss. Modding ain't cheap and it isn't without it's challenges. This is one of those.

 

[FactoryRide]

When I put my daystar lift on, I initially had a really bad alignment afterwards. Took it to a local shop for an alignment and they had no problems getting me fixed up like new again. Now this upcoming friday I will be upgrading from the Dun-flops to some 285 Hankook Dynapro MTs and I will try to remember let ya know how the included alignment goes.

 

[RubiconSS]

I appreciate your point which is why I am trying to help. The Fj is not far off from a 4runner and the simple answer is "Yes" they will get close (probably) and maybe even nail it on "your rig" but the spec parameters take into consideration that from 4runner to 4runner there will be variance so input on "this vehicle" is still a relative issue.
Good luck with it.

 

[Ducmonsta]

The adjustment process for alignments do not change with lifts. There are still the same 4 lower control arm eccentrics to adjust. The only difference is how lazy the tech is. Some techs only want to adjust 2 of the 4 cam eccentrics. Wether they choose both front ones or both rear. They still have to "steer center" with the tie rod ends.

If you add the upper control arm into the equation, then it should cost more. I charge $150 for any modified suspension alignment at my shop (near Wash DC). If I have any other adjustments that aren't stock, I charge additional. Usually we are dealing with upper and lower adjustable control arms on jeeps. This adds another part to the equation, pinion angle. Luckily, we don't have to deal with that on our trucks.

I have never seen a lifted 5th gen leave my shop with anything lower that 2* caster. Assuming there are no adj UCAs.

 

[jnance50]

Thanks Guys, especially you Ducmonsta! This is exactly what I needed to know.

It confirms what I thought - I have no idea what the guy was doing wrong. I was standing right there when he was doing it, he was adjusting 2 cambolts on each side on the lower control arms. When I left he said they were bottomed out, couldn't adjust any further. Was there something he was missing, is my 4runner weird? or did he just flat out not know what he was doing you think?

Again stock UCAs, bought brand new - no accident, Daystar spacer lift, and Spidertrax spacers.

My camber and toes are within spec but my caster is 1.5* and -0.47*. Could it possibly be something wrong with my 4runner and the guy is correct that they're bottomed out?

The adjustment process for alignments do not change with lifts. There are still the same 4 lower control arm eccentrics to adjust. The only difference is how lazy the tech is. Some techs only want to adjust 2 of the 4 cam eccentrics. Wether they choose both front ones or both rear. They still have to "steer center" with the tie rod ends.

If you add the upper control arm into the equation, then it should cost more. I charge $150 for any modified suspension alignment at my shop (near Wash DC). If I have any other adjustments that aren't stock, I charge additional. Usually we are dealing with upper and lower adjustable control arms on jeeps. This adds another part to the equation, pinion angle. Luckily, we don't have to deal with that on our trucks.

I have never seen a lifted 5th gen leave my shop with anything lower that 2* caster. Assuming there are no adj UCAs.

 

[harper7]

Thanks Guys, especially you Ducmonsta! This is exactly what I needed to know.

It confirms what I thought - I have no idea what the guy was doing wrong. I was standing right there when he was doing it, he was adjusting 2 cambolts on each side on the lower control arms. When I left he said they were bottomed out, couldn't adjust any further. Was there something he was missing, is my 4runner weird? or did he just flat out not know what he was doing you think?

Again stock UCAs, bought brand new - no accident, Daystar spacer lift, and Spidertrax spacers.

My camber and toes are within spec but my caster is 1.5* and -0.47*. Could it possibly be something wrong with my 4runner and the guy is correct that they're bottomed out?

With the 2 cam bolts on the lower control arm loosened just enough to adjust.

He needs to adjust the aft cam first while watching the readout to get the highest caster.

Then adjust the front one to bring camber in spec. and that will bring caster down some.

Then adjust the rear cam again a little to bring caster to max again and then the front cam to bring camber back.'

Sometimes it takes several times of back and forth but he should eventually get to the point where you can't get any more pos caster and still keep the camber in spec and near zero.

Toe should be set last with the tie rods of course and doesn't affect camber/caster.

Now with the 2.5" front spacer he won't be able to get about 2.0 or maybe a wee little more on caster without aftermarket UCA's.

Most alignment guys usually just deal with setting camber and toe because caster is not as critical on the majority of vehicles.

 

[Qjake]

Here are my caster cams maxed out, do yours look the same? They are the rear adjustment cam on the LCA, doubtful he even tried to adjust them with the #'s you have. Post a pic of yours

Left side:


Right side:


If you are still having problems after going back and you're up for a ride to the south shore let me know and I can set you up with my bro in law.

 

[jnance50]

Hey Thanks! Here are pictures of all 4 of my adjusters:


Driver Side, Front bolt:

Driver Side, Rear bolt:

Passenger Side, Front bolt:

Passenger Side, Rear bolt:

 

[jnance50]

Qjake,
It looks like ours are nearly mirror reversed. Your diver side is at ~2 o'clock and mine is at ~9 o'clock, and you passenger side looks like it is at ~9 o'clock and mine is at ~2 o'click.

If my understanding is correct then, mine is probably adjusted all the way, just in the wrong direction then on both of them?

 

[Ducmonsta]

^^^^^ we've got another one!


Based on your pics, your alignment guy was either lazy or didn't know what to do. He basically set it up the opposite of what Harper is saying. The head of the rear adjusters on both sides should be closer to the outside of the truck. Effectively moving the lower ball joint towards the front of the truck.

 

[Qjake]

Yup as Duc says and as my pic's show to get the most positive caster the head on your rear adjusters should be towards the outside of your truck.

Have them do as Harper said, adjust caster all the way to +max (opposite of what you have now) then adjust camber and toe after

 

[jnance50]

Awesome. I just snapped these pics, so that's where it sits. Based off the guy who worked on it, I'm guessing he didn't know what he was doing - I sat and watched him and there was alot of perplexed looks - unfortunately I didn't know where they should be otherwise I would've told him they were wrong when I looked at them.

So, advice? Take it to Toyota for $110 and hope they get it right (this shop did tell me if Toyota was able to get it closer they'd refund me for the alignment) ... or take it back to these guys and make them correct the mistake based of Your, Harper, and Qjakes info and the photos?

^^^^^ we've got another one!


Based on your pics, your alignment guy was either lazy or didn't know what to do. He basically set it up the opposite of what Harper is saying. The head of the rear adjusters on both sides should be closer to the outside of the truck. Effectively moving the lower ball joint towards the front of the truck.

 

[Qjake]

Yeah that's a tough one, pay another $100+ or go back to the guy who f'd it up the first time.

I think if you print out the pic's and Harper instructions and have a little sit down with the tech before he starts then you should be fine going back to the first shop. If you decide on the dealer I think you should still bring this info and still have the sit down with the tech to be sure you get what you want.

Or...If you can wait till Wednesday or Thursday I'll get you into my Brother in laws shop and we can actually get hands on and set it the way you want.

 

[harper7]

Now remember,you won't be able to get near as much pos caster as those of us with aftermarket UCA's so the final pics of the adjusters will be different.

Most aftermarket UCA's have at least 2 degrees of positive caster designed into the placement of the their upper ball joint to compensate for a lift.

 

[jnance50]

Right, but I should atleast be hitting the factory spec min of 2.0 caster with the camber and toe within spec as well, yeah?

I definitely want to get aftermarket UCAs - I'm just dumping a lot of money into my stang right now and my 4runner is on the back burner. I only put the put the lift on as a whim because it was sitting around already and I was bored. Didn't realize what a pain I'd get into aligning it.

Now remember,you won't be able to get near as much pos caster as those of us with aftermarket UCA's so the final pics of the adjusters will be different.

Most aftermarket UCA's have at least 2 degrees of positive caster designed into the placement of the their upper ball joint to compensate for a lift.

 

[harper7]

Right, but I should atleast be hitting the factory spec min of 2.0 caster with the camber and toe within spec as well, yeah?

I definitely want to get aftermarket UCAs - I'm just dumping a lot of money into my stang right now and my 4runner is on the back burner. I only put the put the lift on as a whim because it was sitting around already and I was bored. Didn't realize what a pain I'd get into aligning it.

Ya, with stock UCA's and 2.5" lift you should be able to get right at +2 degrees or pretty close.

 

[jnance50]

Nice! Thanks! You know, hats off to you guys - particularly the heavy posters Harper, ducmonster, antman, etc ... I've been a part of active Jeep communities before (jeepforum, naxja, etc..) but this is the best 4x4 community I've ever been a part of. Just wanted to say thanks again you guys. If it wasn't for you I'd never have made it through half my mods. One day I hope to blaze a trail first on this truck, you guys just keep beating me to it

Ya, with stock UCA's and 2.5" lift you should be able to get right at +2 degrees or pretty close.

 

[jnance50]

So, went back to shop #1 - they were not able to do anything, refunded me for the alignment.

Took it to Toyota, now I can't really speak for the sales department (I did buy the truck there, but it wasn't my favorite sales experience) but the SERVICE department at Ira Toyota in Danvers Ma was fantastic. They took nearly 2 hours of work to get my alignment right. I feel like everything is as close as it's going to get.

Camber and Toe are in spec, Caster is at 1.9 on the passenger and 2.4 on the driver - that I can live with. Truck drives great, no complaints.

Now, for the promised photos - my alignment sheet and the final results: