alignment question

[Paperjam]

What? His cross SAI is -7.4! That would normally point to a bent spindle as mentioned before.
I think we were all guessing alignment because the op mentioned the pull AFTER braking. I agree that the brakes are still probably the culprit, and your rear drum suggestion is spot on, but getting an alignment done is never a bad idea, as long as a competent tech does it!

Pardon my eyes, im reading this on a phone...

Braking has to affect it somehow, sticking something or worn bushings can cause this.

A good tech checks the ball joints, tie rods, struts and all associated bushings as well as for bent components before going ahead with an alignment. Any of that stuff cause a complete headache.

Sometimes you won't be able to see the bent spindle without putting another one right next to it.

 

[Konkordmusk]

How does one check for a bad spindle?

It's best to find a common reference point that is equidistant on both sides, and then measure from that point to the spindle. For example, you could measure from the leading top edge of the frame to the outside of the upper ball joint housing. Measure at a few different points and you're looking for large variations in the distances. Just make sure that your starting point is something common to both sides; the fender wells are not a good choice, for example. Bolt to bolt, frame edge to lower ball joint, just look for large variations. In all reality, there isn't a real need to check for a bad spindle, the SAI on the alignment already indicates that it is bad! You would just be measuring for confirmation.

Pardon my eyes, im reading this on a phone...

Braking has to affect it somehow, sticking something or worn bushings can cause this.

A good tech checks the ball joints, tie rods, struts and all associated bushings as well as for bent components before going ahead with an alignment. Any of that stuff cause a complete headache.

Sometimes you won't be able to see the bent spindle without putting another one right next to it.

Agreed. The bent spindle will not be completely obvious. They should have informed the OP that there was an enormous variation before proceeding with the alignment.

OP, definitely start with the caliper. Cleaning and adjusting the rear brakes is free too, so get on that and report back!

 

[IBallEngineer]

It's best to find a common reference point that is equidistant on both sides, and then measure from that point to the spindle. For example, you could measure from the leading top edge of the frame to the outside of the upper ball joint housing. Measure at a few different points and you're looking for large variations in the distances. Just make sure that your starting point is something common to both sides; the fender wells are not a good choice, for example. Bolt to bolt, frame edge to lower ball joint, just look for large variations. In all reality, there isn't a real need to check for a bad spindle, the SAI on the alignment already indicates that it is bad! You would just be measuring for confirmation.



Agreed. The bent spindle will not be completely obvious. They should have informed the OP that there was an enormous variation before proceeding with the alignment.

OP, definitely start with the caliper. Cleaning and adjusting the rear brakes is free too, so get on that and report back!

Not so fast, any of the 3 components here could be bad, or more than one. Upper control arm, lower arm, and the knuckle. I have a chart that helps diagnose common bent stuff, but it doesn't apply to the OP's issue. With the SAI being so high, and camber still negative, its not likely the spindle, in fact I'd bet money on that. The difference between the angle created by the line drawn down intersecting both ball joints, and vertical, is unaffected by the spindle. The included angle would be, but if the camber was more negative that would be a problem, and even 2 or 3 degrees more positive would STILL have too much SAI.
So if the lower arm was bent so the ball joint was moved toward the frame, the SAI would go down, if it was bent so the ball joint moved AWAY from the frame, SAI would go up, but that would mean the arm stretched, quite a bit. Not likely.

The upper arm, or it's mounting point is where I'd be looking. If it bent in and moved the ball joint TOWARD the frame you'd have a high SAI, since camber is negative, the included angle is reduced but not enough. The knuckle could still be bent, but it can't be the only problem.

I can't believe I overlooked just how high his SAI was on the right side. SAI does center steering, as does caster, so it "could" have some impact on stability on braking.

op2:

 

[Konkordmusk]

Not so fast, any of the 3 components here could be bad, or more than one. Upper control arm, lower arm, and the knuckle. I have a chart that helps diagnose common bent stuff, but it doesn't apply to the OP's issue. With the SAI being so high, and camber still negative, its not likely the spindle, in fact I'd bet money on that. The difference between the angle created by the line drawn down intersecting both ball joints, and vertical, is unaffected by the spindle. The included angle would be, but if the camber was more negative that would be a problem, and even 2 or 3 degrees more positive would STILL have too much SAI.
So if the lower arm was bent so the ball joint was moved toward the frame, the SAI would go down, if it was bent so the ball joint moved AWAY from the frame, SAI would go up, but that would mean the arm stretched, quite a bit. Not likely.

The upper arm, or it's mounting point is where I'd be looking. If it bent in and moved the ball joint TOWARD the frame you'd have a high SAI, since camber is negative, the included angle is reduced but not enough. The knuckle could still be bent, but it can't be the only problem.

I can't believe I overlooked just how high his SAI was on the right side. SAI does center steering, as does caster, so it "could" have some impact on stability on braking.

op2:

Okay, I'm with you! I have known all three components to cause an issue and have been successful in correcting SAI/IA on SA/SLA setups (acronyms everywhere!) by replacing the bad part. Of course, the vehicle was in my sight and thus alot easier to diagnose than trying to over the internet! I agree that the upper control arm may be contributing to the issue here. We will see op2:

Now check this out! SAI causes lift of the vehicle when the wheel is turned away from center. This causes the weight of the vehicle to assist in returning the wheel to center. It could be that, while braking, the opposite effect is happening? Since the spec is so bad on that one side, loading the front suspension under brake load causes the SAI to pull the 4runner to one side, essentially confirming your last statement.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Okay, I'm with you! I have known all three components to cause an issue and have been successful in correcting SAI/IA on SA/SLA setups (acronyms everywhere!) by replacing the bad part. Of course, the vehicle was in my sight and thus alot easier to diagnose than trying to over the internet! I agree that the upper control arm may be contributing to the issue here. We will see op2:

Now check this out! SAI causes lift of the vehicle when the wheel is turned away from center. This causes the weight of the vehicle to assist in returning the wheel to center. It could be that, while braking, the opposite effect is happening? Since the spec is so bad on that one side, loading the front suspension under brake load causes the SAI to pull the 4runner to one side, essentially confirming your last statement.

Exacarachary!

You have come far grasshopper!

:cheer2:

 

[Konkordmusk]

Exacarachary!

You have come far grasshopper!

:cheer2:

It's funny, I don't work at the alignment shop anymore, except as needed to do cars like this

[/shameless plug]

 

[Funcrazy1]

Here are the pads looks good so both front calipers are brand new

Here is the rear shoe nothing bad and drum is goos

The damn thing goes to the right when braking and after braking it shoots to the left.. Any local WA people wanna help me out?

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

I assume you just Brake Kleened those drum brakes?

 

[Funcrazy1]

I assume you just Brake Kleened those drum brakes?

Yes there Axel seals are good no grease in drums

 

[IBallEngineer]

It's funny, I don't work at the alignment shop anymore, except as needed to do cars like this



[/shameless plug]

It burns us, it burns us, the Hunter equipment, it burns us!!:fencing:

 

[Funcrazy1]

So I also forgot to say one of my sway bar end links doesn't have bolt on it... Will that have the effect on it? I'm still waiting for parts on my UCAs. I'm really over this issue...

 

[Funcrazy1]

Update... Just changed the brake lines still pulling to the right and after braking shooting to the left.. Guess we wait until I get my upper control arms. Then from there all I can think is the tie rods?

 

[Funcrazy1]

So I found my very first alignment at 8/20/14

Then when I took it Firestone 8 months later. Only took it off road once.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Those two are the same, but I have to tell you, that alignment tech did nothing to help you out on the first alignment.

Arrrrgggghh.

 

[Funcrazy1]

Those two are the same, but I have to tell you, that alignment tech did nothing to help you out on the first alignment.

Arrrrgggghh.

Alright just edit the post take a look now

 

[JayRolla]

After I finally got mine all aligned out I still have a pull to the left when braking also. Its better but still there. New brakes front and rear also. Im thinking it could not be my master cylinder causing the pull to the left. Good luck on finding the issue.

 

[Funcrazy1]

After I finally got mine all aligned out I still have a pull to the left when braking also. Its better but still there. New brakes front and rear also. Im thinking it could not be my master cylinder causing the pull to the left. Good luck on finding the issue.

Dang... Did you see my new alignment photo? What would cause such a change ?

 

[808T4R]

Just wanted to share my alignment specs. 98 4runner auto 4x4 3" lift toytec/eibach springs/tundra 5100 in the front and ome890/5100 in the rear. 1" diff drop, stock ucas, stock tires, 2"bl

 

[chewybtc]

It seems like this thread has a great deal of knowledge about alignments so hopefully you guys can chime in.
Info:
I recently completed my frame swap on my '97. (new frame is a '99)
I have OME 3" lift with 881 front and 891 rear
285/70/17 tires on FJ 6 spoke wheels.
I put 1.25" spidertrax all around to solve the tires rubbing badly on the UCA

We couldn't get the 3 top studs of the driver side shock top plate off, so we had to cut them. (not realizing that the original studs were longer than what autozone gave us in the replacement top plate) So I had to reassemble the driver side shock without the 1/4" aluminum spacer at the top of the spring that came with the OME kit.

I took it to the dealer to get aligned and they told me the spacer shouldn't matter ( I am fixing it soon, but have to find the longer studs first)

I had very little rubbing before the frame swap (only at lock really), but after the alignment it is really bad on the limited flares towards the bottom. I can barely back up and turn my wheel at all without it grabbing the flare.

I know nothing about alignment and everything looks good except the caster on left side.

Is this what is causing the rubbing issue?

Would the top spacer not being in there have anything to do with this not being in spec like the right side?

Is this how I want the numbers to be for my lift and wheel tire combo?

Thanks guys!

 

[LookAtThatDog]

[MENTION=67311]chewybtc[/MENTION]

Is it only on the drivers side? Your caster is so far off on that side, yet your passenger side is in spec, even with your lift and stock UCA - Most likely because of your spacer situation