Amen Clinic

I don't want to diminish the results you and others on the forum got out that clinic.

And it's true that I don't know what's it like to deal with true depression. I am very lucky to live a mostly healthy life, at least mentally.

The reason I am a skeptic, not a hater, of the amen clinic is because there is pretty strong consensus in the medial community against his methods and use of tools.

I realize that sometimes the medical community is behind the times. A good example is the fight against lime disease.
 
2 SPECT scans IS the procedure. A baseline scan and a concentration scan. This is clearly and simply explained on their website.

Huh? Did you even understand what i wrote? Huh?

Yes, it is a FLAWED, UNETHICAL procedure.
 
] The SPECT scan was necessary.

Yes, the various doctors were able to clinically determine that I was depressed, but they were unable to make a more specific diagnosis.

The SPECT scan of a brain in action provides the same value as an MRI of a dislocated shoulder.

I am now interested...what SPECIFIC diagnosis did Dr. Amen clinic provided to you BASED on SPECT?

I am confused by your MRI and dislocated shoulder. Were you going to have surgery on your shoulder? Was this a recurrent shoulder dislocation?
 
More information: NIMH · Brain Scans ? Not Quite Ready for Prime Time

Dr. Thomas Insel, the director of the National Institute for Mental Health, characterizes brain imaging as “still primarily a research tool.” He cautions that “entrepreneurial zeal capitalizing on scientific advances needs to be tempered by reality checks.”

The differences in brain structure and activity seen in disorders like schizophrenia or ADHD, for example, are typically only meaningful when comparing group statistics. There is simply too much individual variation in brain structure and function for an individual's scan to be diagnostic or predictive, given the current state of the science.
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Experts in the field:

None of the nation’s most prestigious medical organizations in the field — including the APA, the National Institute of Mental Health, the American College of Radiology, the Society of Nuclear Medicine and Molecular Imaging and the National Alliance on Mental Illness — validates his claims.

No major research institution takes his SPECT work seriously.

“In my opinion, what he’s doing is the modern equivalent of phrenology,” says Jeffrey Lieberman, APA president-elect, author of the textbook “Psychiatry” and chairman of Psychiatry at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons. (Phrenology was the pseudoscience, popular in the early 19th century, that said the mind was determined by the shape of the skull, particularly its bumps.) “The claims he makes are not supported by reliable science, and one has to be skeptical about his motivation.

“I think you have a vulnerable patient population that doesn’t know any better,” says M. Elizabeth Oates, chair of the Commission on Nuclear Medicine, Board of Chancellors at the American College of Radiology, and chair of the department of radiology at the University of Kentucky.

“A sham,” says Martha J. Farah, director of the Center for Neuroscience & Society at the University of Pennsylvania, summing up her thoughts on one of Amen’s most recent scientific papers.

“I guess we’re all amateurs except for him,” says Helen Mayberg, a psychiatry, neurology and radiology professor at Emory School of Medicine and one of the most respected researchers into depression and brain scanning. “He’s making claims that are outrageous and not supported by any research.”

“I can’t imagine clinical decisions being guided by an imaging test,” says Steven E. Hyman, former director of the National Institute of Mental Health and current director of the Stanley Center for Psychiatric Research at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard.

The APA, in fact, has twice issued papers that dispute “claims being made that brain imaging technology ... was useful for making a clinical diagnosis and for helping in treatment selections.

The most recent paper was published last month. It was the work of 12 doctors who spent three years assessing the latest research. The summary: “There are currently no brain imaging biomarkers that are currently clinically useful for any diagnostic category in psychiatry.”
 
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Few top researchers and scientists say that SPECT is anything but a research tool of limited clinical use in identifying strokes, brain injuries and the like. It is helpful in group studies, to say broad things about groups of patients, but not specific things about individual patients. And, researchers say, SPECT has largely since been surpassed by technologies such as PET and functional MRIs, which give images of far greater clarity. It’s no longer viewed as cutting edge.

A Harvard psychologist once noted:

“Before you start promulgating this and marketing it and profiting from it, you should ethically be bound to demonstrate it scientifically in a peer-reviewed, respected journal,” Kirsch said, and then you must have it tested by others.

Otherwise, you might as well get a pair of ponies, a buckboard and a traveling salvation show: “You’re just going down the path of being a snake oil salesman.”
 
You guys...

[MENTION=100699]dapslappy[/MENTION]: The whole point of this thread was to debate the Amen Clinic….It, in my mind is pseudo science and I am being generous even including the word science in there. However I do know it has helped some people.
Dr Amen did not invent the SPECT scan. It is a diagnostic machine like a CT scan or an MRI. His focus is brain health, which includes chemical interactions and levels, metabolic rates, and injuries caused by head trauma. He is using the SPECT scan to image the brain. Sincerely, I simply do not understand why you think this is any less scientific than an MRI of a heart. I do not understand why you think this is an inappropriate or pseudo scientific use of this diagnostic imaging process. They do not write prescriptions and send you on your way. You work with your doctor at home. Your doctor writes the prescriptions. Your doctor.
My niece's pediatrician was anti-Amen. She was concerned about the radiation exposure and I think she was skeptical about its diagnostic validity and usefulness. My niece was 8 and was having ongoing and serious sensory and ADD issues. She just turned 11 and is now healthy, happy, and as moody as all the other 11 year old girls in the world. Once this pediatrician knew the actual exposure of the scan, spoke with our psych Dr, and saw the results of the SPECT scan she got on board. She is now pro-Amen because of its scientific validity, practical application, and diagnostic accuracy.
The Amen clinic does not lay hands on and chant 'oooohhhhhmmmmmm' while waving crystals over one's head. It is a three day process of diagnosis, interpretation, and recommendation.
Fill out a multi-page and detailed questionnaire and history form beforehand. First day, concentration scan then interview (1 hour + if i recall correctly). I think I was there from 10-12 then 1:30-3:00. Second day, baseline scan then…. something else I think. Another interview? Draw blood? Sorry, I don't remember. Maybe just the baseline scan. 10-12 and maybe 1:30-3:00. Next day pick up the results. Normally one would now sit down with a staff psychiatrist and discuss the results at length and in detail. I opted out because my psych Dr, a wise and learned man if ever there was one, knows how to interpret the scans.
 
Dr Amen did not invent the SPECT scan. It is a diagnostic machine like a CT scan or an MRI. His focus is brain health, which includes chemical interactions and levels, metabolic rates, and injuries caused by head trauma. He is using the SPECT scan to image the brain. Sincerely, I simply do not understand why you think this is any less scientific than an MRI of a heart. I do not understand why you think this is an inappropriate or pseudo scientific use of this diagnostic imaging process. They do not write prescriptions and send you on your way. You work with your doctor at home. Your doctor writes the prescriptions. Your doctor.
My niece's pediatrician was anti-Amen. She was concerned about the radiation exposure and I think she was skeptical about its diagnostic validity and usefulness. My niece was 8 and was having ongoing and serious sensory and ADD issues. She just turned 11 and is now healthy, happy, and as moody as all the other 11 year old girls in the world. Once this pediatrician knew the actual exposure of the scan, spoke with our psych Dr, and saw the results of the SPECT scan she got on board. She is now pro-Amen because of its scientific validity, practical application, and diagnostic accuracy.
The Amen clinic does not lay hands on and chant 'oooohhhhhmmmmmm' while waving crystals over one's head. It is a three day process of diagnosis, interpretation, and recommendation.
Fill out a multi-page and detailed questionnaire and history form beforehand. First day, concentration scan then interview (1 hour + if i recall correctly). I think I was there from 10-12 then 1:30-3:00. Second day, baseline scan then…. something else I think. Another interview? Draw blood? Sorry, I don't remember. Maybe just the baseline scan. 10-12 and maybe 1:30-3:00. Next day pick up the results. Normally one would now sit down with a staff psychiatrist and discuss the results at length and in detail. I opted out because my psych Dr, a wise and learned man if ever there was one, knows how to interpret the scans.

Then we will agree to disagree then. Glad it helped you! Comparing it to an MRI on a heart: The heart is a muscle, nothing else. It is not happy nor sad. I understand little about the brain other than it is the most complex device, living or not, that was ever put on the face of the earth.
I have several "rich" friends, one is a billionaire on the Forbes 400 list. Guess what: They are all still working hard, expanding their fortunes. To simply do nothing is a foreign concept to them. Please don't fall for that.
 
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Sincerely, I simply do not understand why you think this is any less scientific than an MRI of a heart. I do not understand why you think this is an inappropriate or pseudo scientific use of this diagnostic imaging process.

They do not write prescriptions and send you on your way.

She is now pro-Amen because of its scientific validity, practical application, and diagnostic accuracy.

I opted out because my psych Dr, a wise and learned man if ever there was one, knows how to interpret the scans.

Less scientific because it has not been validated by a blinded study. Dr. Amen has refused to let his scans and experts (himself included) to a blinded study.

It seems like Amen Clinic has wonderful supportive staff. I am sure that they are.

Your pediatrician has a problem understanding what scientific validity means. :(

And your psych Dr knows how to interpret the scans? :pray:
 
"Amen’s father is a Lebanese immigrant who worked his way up from poverty to chairman of the board of Unified Grocers, a $4 billion company. “People need to understand,” Amen points out. “I don’t do this for the money. My family’s rich!”"

Yeah, ok...i have beachfront property for sale on Pluto for you....
 
I don't want to diminish the results you and others on the forum got out that clinic.

And it's true that I don't know what's it like to deal with true depression. I am very lucky to live a mostly healthy life, at least mentally.

The reason I am a skeptic, not a hater, of the amen clinic is because there is pretty strong consensus in the medial community against his methods and use of tools.

I realize that sometimes the medical community is behind the times. A good example is the fight against lime disease.

I've been dealing with lyme for the last 5 years. I was on IV antibiotics for 6 months, missed a semester of school and it still affects me to this day. I would give something like the Amen clinic a chance if the effects were still significant enough to impede my every day function. I was actually part of an alternative trial type thing using some interesting techniques i'm happy to share over PM if anyone is interested.
 
[MENTION=100699]dapslappy[/MENTION]:Becoming a fan boy just because it helped one guy is not going to win any arguments or sway any customers.

I take exception to being called a fan boy. It is dismissive. It is patronizing. It is insulting. It is inappropriate in this context.

They are not customers. They are patients. Do you refer to yourself as a customer when getting an annual physical?

I am interested in refuting the misinformation about the application of the SPECT scan and its use by the Amen Clinic. I am interested in refuting the baseless assertion that DR Amen is conniving, incompetent, or unethical.

The 2 people who have actually been to the Amen Clinic and posted about it, me and thekid, describe the fundamental positive changes that occurred and still exist. My niece, my brother in law, my other brother in law, a good family friend, plus me and thekid = 6 people who have actually been to the Amen Clinic and benefitted greatly from it. Benefitted greatly. Each person I know who has been to the Amen Clinic has experienced significant positive changes. It is not random. It is not a placebo effect. These are not anecdotal examples. One of my brother in laws was highly skeptical and resistant. Now he holds the clinic and its methods in high esteem. Few prostelitize as fervently as the recently converted. He is such a convert.

I'd like you to note that I have not been using lots of exclamation points, and all caps, etc. I am not screaming and shouting and pounding the desk. I am not being drawn into childish digressions. I am refuting baseless criticism because I do not want someone like BklackWorksInc to be dissuaded from a SPECT scan because people opine "pseudo science", "in it for the money", "unethical", "unproven", "anecdotal", like an angry mob of pitch fork wielding townsfolk outside Dr Frankenstein's castle.
 
I realize that sometimes the medical community is behind the times.

Very true. But, at the same time, it sometimes important to take your time esp. when it concerns your future health. Examples?

1. Hormone replacement therapy (HRT). Initial studies showed tremendous improvement in symptoms and protection against heart disease...so, everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Now? HRT is a second line therapy because of longterm harmful effects on your heart.

2. Proton pump inhibitor (Prilosec, Prevacid, Protonix). Initial studies...overwhelming benefits...and still are. Great sh!t, as one would say. It helps with acid reflux and heals ulcers. We use it acutely to stop bleeding in stomach. BUT, only after decade or more of use, we are now seeing the negative effects of it, including aspiration pneumonia, c. diff colitis, bone fractures (from poor absorption?), vitamin deficiency, and possibly (debatable) cancer. (God gave us acid in our stomach for a reason.)

3. Low T syndrome. This is the BIG thing now...EVERYONE is doing it, including maybe your own family doctor! Testosterone fixes everything, right? True, like HRT, big T helps with symptoms of low T in men. But, now, just last month, a study came out showing increase stroke and heart attacks in folks taking testosterone.

4. Tylenol. Used to be thought as harmless if your liver is OK and taken in right amount. Unfortunately, studies are now showing ADDITIVE effects of Tylenol taken in your lifetime (even if taken at recommended doses) which can result in kidney damage in your "golden years." Up to now, Tylenol has NOT been thought to affect kidneys at all!

There are many other examples where it may be wise to take it slow and easy. Radiation exposure is not something to take lightly.
 
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Have you read the study?

I don't think you did.
No. Was I not clear about that?
I am confident about the validity of the study. This is based upon the premise that Dr Amen is both an ethical and highly competent professional with the knowledge and expertise to conduct a proper study. This is based upon the premise that the inclusion of 4 other doctors provides a built in system of checks and balances to ensure the validity of the study process and results. This is based upon the premise that this study is current and was published in an appropriate and (I assume) legitimate medical journal. Another person has taken issue with the source of publication, describing it as 'alternative' and thus suspect. This is based upon the premise that Dr Amen and the 4 other authors of this study have published a wide variety and substantial number of studies on topics other than SPECT scans in what are clearly reputable medical journals, i.e.:

journal of clinical psychiatry
journal of american academy of child adolescent psychiatry
american journal of psychiatry
journal of neuropsychiatry and clinical neurosciences
annals of clinical psychiatry
annals of clinical psychiatry
journal of psychoactive drugs

No I did not read the study. I read about the study and I see the results. I trust the source so I have confidence in the validity of the results cited in the abstract.

You are the skeptic. The other one who goes on tirades is a skeptic. You read the study. You dissect it. Perhaps the other one who says he is a physician has easy and free access to the full study. This could save you the inconvenience of paying for it.
I do not care if you remain a skeptic. I am uninterested in convincing you that you are wrong. I am interested in refuting the baseless assertions and ill informed opinions so that another person who may benefit greatly will not be dissuaded from going to the Amen Clinic.
 
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No. Was I not clear about that?
I am confident about the validity of the study. This is based upon the premise that Dr Amen is both an ethical and highly competent professional with the knowledge and expertise to conduct a proper study. This is based upon the premise that the inclusion of 4 other doctors provides a built in system of checks and balances to ensure the validity of the study process and results. This is based upon the premise that this study is current and was published in an appropriate and (I assume) legitimate medical journal. Another person has taken issue with the source of publication, describing it as 'alternative' and thus suspect. This is based upon the premise that Dr Amen and the 4 other authors of this study have published a wide variety and substantial number of studies on topics other than SPECT scans in what are clearly reputable medical journals, i.e.
journal of clinical psychiatry
journal of american academy of child adolescent psychiatry
american journal of psychiatry
journal of neuropsychiatry and clinical neurosciences
annals of clinical psychiatry
annals of clinical psychiatry
journal of psychoactive drugs

No I did not read the study. I read about the study and I see the results. I trust the source so I have confidence in the validity of the results cited in the abstract.

Oh my goodness.... :der: You don't do much independent thinking, do you?
 
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I take exception to being called a fan boy. It is dismissive. It is patronizing. It is insulting. It is inappropriate in this context.

They are not customers. They are patients. Do you refer to yourself as a customer when getting an annual physical?

I am interested in refuting the misinformation about the application of the SPECT scan and its use by the Amen Clinic. I am interested in refuting the baseless assertion that DR Amen is conniving, incompetent, or unethical.

The 2 people who have actually been to the Amen Clinic and posted about it, me and thekid, describe the fundamental positive changes that occurred and still exist. My niece, my brother in law, my other brother in law, a good family friend, plus me and thekid = 6 people who have actually been to the Amen Clinic and benefitted greatly from it. Benefitted greatly. Each person I know who has been to the Amen Clinic has experienced significant positive changes. It is not random. It is not a placebo effect. These are not anecdotal examples. One of my brother in laws was highly skeptical and resistant. Now he holds the clinic and its methods in high esteem. Few prostelitize as fervently as the recently converted. He is such a convert.

I'd like you to note that I have not been using lots of exclamation points, and all caps, etc. I am not screaming and shouting and pounding the desk. I am not being drawn into childish digressions. I am refuting baseless criticism because I do not want someone like BklackWorksInc to be dissuaded from a SPECT scan because people opine "pseudo science", "in it for the money", "unethical", "unproven", "anecdotal", like an angry mob of pitch fork wielding townsfolk outside Dr Frankenstein's castle.

Sorry I will not use that term again. Good luck. I hope Dr. Amen can somehow prove to the rest of his peers that he is not, and I am quoting from Sheldon, "full of hokum." I know he helps some people. He also does not help some people. You should not be blind to the facts though and [MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] has listed several respected organizations and leaders in the field that take exception to the treatment he offers. That, in conjunction with not wanting to do tried and true blind tests, is what makes me cringe and turn away. You, as a layman, have no idea what really worked. It could be the Placebo effect for all we know. The important thing is it fixed you and a few others you know. Again, glad it worked for you.

Edit: Oh, I never forget that I am a customer to a doctor or a clinic. A patient? Sorry, that does not mean anything to me. A customer is someone who pays for a product or service. If I were not a customer of a hospital or a doctor then why do they operate as a business? Why do they run business models looking at influx ratios and how to maximize their billing cycle while minimizing time spent with customers? Oh, I am a customer all right and so are you and anyone else who goes in for anything medically related.
 
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Then we will agree to disagree then. Glad it helped you! Comparing it to an MRI on a heart: The heart is a muscle, nothing else. It is not happy nor sad. I understand little about the brain other than it is the most complex device, living or not, that was ever put on the face of the earth.
I have several "rich" friends, one is a billionaire on the Forbes 400 list. Guess what: They are all still working hard, expanding their fortunes. To simply do nothing is a foreign concept to them. Please don't fall for that.
Agreed.
The brain is an organ. It is fueled by glucose, which is delivered via the bloodstream. Blood flow and the electrical activity of the neurons firing increases and decreases as you perform different tasks. Reading a book stimulates different areas of the brain than, say, watching tv, or juggling, or hugging your kids. The SPECT scan is like an MRI in that it is scanning an organ, the brain. The isotopes bind to the areas through which blood is flowing. More blood pumping faster to supply the glucose to fuel the increased activity of the brain increases the number of isotopes passing through. In its resting, non concentration state there is reduced blood flow and neural activity. Less blood flow = smaller area in which the isotopes will bind. The faster the blood flows the more isotopes will flow by in a given amount of time, like a stream's volume flow increasing after an rainstorm. The isotopes help trace which areas are experiencing increased or decreased blood flow, thus which ones may be overactive or under active.
While an MRI can record a moving image of a beating heart, the SPECT scan records an image own the isotope distribution in the organ in question, the brain.

I understand your point about successful ambitious people. I think your billionaire friend is still working hard because he finds it fulfilling and interesting and an intrinsic part of who he is instead of the desire or need for more money. The money is a byproduct of the success. I'm not saying he is entirely disinterested in increasing his fortune, I am suggesting it is not the primary motivator. His wealth affords him the opportunity to delve into things which interest him. One can vacation on a yacht for only so long before it loses its appeal. I suspect he would quickly wilt and die if he decided to rest on his laurels and live a life of leisure.
I like the quote. I think it is funny. I think his family's wealth and ambition have enabled him to pursue that which he finds substantive, useful, interesting, emotionally satisfying and professionally rewarding. I believe his primary motivation is not monetary.

What is the coolest, most interesting, or most unusual thing you've done via the good will and generosity of this friend? Off topic, just curious.
 
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sorry i will not use that term again. Good luck. I hope dr. Amen can somehow prove to the rest of his peers that he is not, and i am quoting from sheldon, "full of hokum." i know he helps some people. He also does not help some people. You should not be blind to the facts though and [mention=2]thai[/mention] has listed several respected organizations and leaders in the field that take exception to the treatment he offers. That, in conjunction with not wanting to do tried and true blind tests, is what makes me cringe and turn away. You, as a layman, have no idea what really worked. It could be the placebo effect for all we know. The important thing is it fixed you and a few others you know. Again, glad it worked for you.

Edit: Oh, i never forget that i am a customer to a doctor or a clinic. A patient? Sorry, that does not mean anything to me. A customer is someone who pays for a product or service. If i were not a customer of a hospital or a doctor then why do they operate as a business? Why do they run business models looking at influx ratios and how to maximize their billing cycle while minimizing time spent with customers? Oh, i am a customer all right and so are you and anyone else who goes in for anything medically related.

10-4.
 

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