BrianSD_42
New member
I wouldn't know how to interpret them. I believe you saw the results you claim but I'm still a skeptic just because of the reasons listed above were very very convincing.
My speciality is IT technology not medical.
Amen Clinic
- Thread starter 1engineer
- Start date
I wouldn't know how to interpret them. I believe you saw the results you claim but I'm still a skeptic just because of the reasons listed above were very very convincing.
My speciality is IT technology not medical.
slapdappy
Banned
Most of it is the clinical diagnosis and extensive history they take, plus the conclusion/interpretation and images.
I might not because even though I would redact personal info it's still a private document with very specific details about me and my life. I would readily share it with a close friend or family matter, but internetting it is an entirely different matter.
I might because I think the positive benefit to others who may otherwise forgo this option is substantially greater than the anonymous embarrassment to which I might be subjected.
Plus, it is just so dang interesting.
Thai
Elite Member
You are one weird fanboy. :wtf:
Posting your evaluations will prove that AMEN physicians are competent and good. BUT, that won't do jack for you to say that SPECT is necessary. A doctor can write in so many ways to back up what he/she wants you to believe.
The bottom line is that SPECT is outdated and useless in psychiatry...as repeatedly stated by experts in the field who are not tied to profits from doing unethical SPECT scans on unsuspecting patients.
JB.
New member
Thai has the luxury of being on offense and getting to play skeptic on a subject that connects closely to his professional background. Given this massively advantageous perch from which to opine, one would think it would not be too hard to muster enough magnanimity to avoid name calling. But no.
If anyone is interested in getting a little insight into how reliable medical studies are, here is a little reading on the subject.
The Truth Wears Off
Lies, damned lies, and medical science
Of course, the above does nothing to validate the Amen Clinic. But by revealing that the structure to which it's being compared was built with a little more glass than many may have thought, it might be a little easier to see why some people - hopefully with eyes wide open - might be tempted to go in a different direction.
If anyone is interested in getting a little insight into how reliable medical studies are, here is a little reading on the subject.
The Truth Wears Off
Lies, damned lies, and medical science
Of course, the above does nothing to validate the Amen Clinic. But by revealing that the structure to which it's being compared was built with a little more glass than many may have thought, it might be a little easier to see why some people - hopefully with eyes wide open - might be tempted to go in a different direction.
BlackWorksInc
New member
The truth is there is no confirmed scientific proof that imaging can be used in any more than a comparative research tool. We have spent decades, billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of hours of research capital and STILL barely understand how the mind works let alone have the ability to draw quantitative results from that research.
I have not seen a single shred of conclusive proof that anyone can use ANY method currently employed, be it blood tests, brain imaging, and Vulcun Mind-Meld Therapy to determine how much of X Drug you need to be "neurally healthy" I subscribe to various scientific publications, keep up on research, and look at a lot of claims... unfortunately we're just not there yet. You can't fix what you barely understand and that's where we are at with the human brain.
I have not seen a single shred of conclusive proof that anyone can use ANY method currently employed, be it blood tests, brain imaging, and Vulcun Mind-Meld Therapy to determine how much of X Drug you need to be "neurally healthy" I subscribe to various scientific publications, keep up on research, and look at a lot of claims... unfortunately we're just not there yet. You can't fix what you barely understand and that's where we are at with the human brain.
JB.
New member
Thai
Elite Member
JB.
New member
I certainly don't advocate calling BS on all medical studies, just a more realistic view.
"Still, Ioannidis anticipated that the community might shrug off his findings: sure, a lot of dubious research makes it into journals, but we researchers and physicians know to ignore it and focus on the good stuff, so what’s the big deal? The other paper headed off that claim. He zoomed in on 49 of the most highly regarded research findings in medicine over the previous 13 years, as judged by the science community’s two standard measures: the papers had appeared in the journals most widely cited in research articles, and the 49 articles themselves were the most widely cited articles in these journals. These were articles that helped lead to the widespread popularity of treatments such as the use of hormone-replacement therapy for menopausal women, vitamin E to reduce the risk of heart disease, coronary stents to ward off heart attacks, and daily low-dose aspirin to control blood pressure and prevent heart attacks and strokes. Ioannidis was putting his contentions to the test not against run-of-the-mill research, or even merely well-accepted research, but against the absolute tip of the research pyramid. Of the 49 articles, 45 claimed to have uncovered effective interventions. Thirty-four of these claims had been retested, and 14 of these, or 41 percent, had been convincingly shown to be wrong or significantly exaggerated. If between a third and a half of the most acclaimed research in medicine was proving untrustworthy, the scope and impact of the problem were undeniable."
"Still, Ioannidis anticipated that the community might shrug off his findings: sure, a lot of dubious research makes it into journals, but we researchers and physicians know to ignore it and focus on the good stuff, so what’s the big deal? The other paper headed off that claim. He zoomed in on 49 of the most highly regarded research findings in medicine over the previous 13 years, as judged by the science community’s two standard measures: the papers had appeared in the journals most widely cited in research articles, and the 49 articles themselves were the most widely cited articles in these journals. These were articles that helped lead to the widespread popularity of treatments such as the use of hormone-replacement therapy for menopausal women, vitamin E to reduce the risk of heart disease, coronary stents to ward off heart attacks, and daily low-dose aspirin to control blood pressure and prevent heart attacks and strokes. Ioannidis was putting his contentions to the test not against run-of-the-mill research, or even merely well-accepted research, but against the absolute tip of the research pyramid. Of the 49 articles, 45 claimed to have uncovered effective interventions. Thirty-four of these claims had been retested, and 14 of these, or 41 percent, had been convincingly shown to be wrong or significantly exaggerated. If between a third and a half of the most acclaimed research in medicine was proving untrustworthy, the scope and impact of the problem were undeniable."
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Thai
Elite Member
Remember that a lot of the studies are on-going. HRT (hormone replacement therapy) is an on-going research. HRT does indeed show immediate benefits beyond woman's stuff...but over the long haul, it does affect heart negatively. So, early research on HRT was not necessarily wrong...it was simply inaccurate about long term effects. Did the researcher jumped the gun initially? Probably because of early encouraging results.
Notice that a lot of the studies mentioned in your quote has to do with long-term effects. There is only so much "guessing" or extrapolation that you can do. If you see immediate significant breakthrough benefits, then it is part of protocol to publish your results early...and then continue to follow the results over time.
Same thing with cardiac stents. If i had a heart attack and i needed a stent, then you bet your ass that i would want one now! The problem is that any results on stenting needs to be pushed out quickly because of the pressure from public to treat heart attacks effectively. Some early stents had a film in it to prevent re-clotting...which did show such in early studies in vitro. However, in real life after enough cases that can be reviewed, this turns out not to be the case. Follow-up studies confirmed the lack of effectiveness of these type of stents. Aspirin and Plavix are required...some thought that with these drug-stents, you won't need these medications. Not the case once enough data could be collected in real life.
Same thing with cancer drugs. As soon as a cancer drug shows effectiveness in vitro (lab), it is rushed out to public because there is simply no time to conduct 20 years followup studies.
Unfortunately, there is a balance that is needed. Some (like BrianSD) say that medical community is too slow...and note that i did mention the flaw of HRT in my prior post. Some like you JB say that medical community jumped the gun due to "flawed" studies. It is hard to make everyone happy.
In conclusion, you have to read everything with a grain of salt. I generally stick to tried-n-true regimen in my practice and avoid new glamour kids on the block. But, in certain life-threatening conditions, i may not have the benefit of waiting for 20 year follow-up studies to begin treating my patients.
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Sure. This is what this study does.
Take five psychiatrists who have already bought into SPECT ("Five board-certified psychiatrists with expertise in evaluating SPECT neuroimaging in clinical practice ... All psychiatrists had been conducting diagnostic workups with SPECT imaging for a minimum of two years prior to this study").
Give them "standard" evaluations of a bunch of patients. Tell them to make a diagnosis and prescribe medications. Record these.
Now give them the SPECT scans for the same patients. Ask the psychiatrists to re-evaluate the diagnoses and the medications. Record these.
And finally report the number of changes in diagnoses and medications that the re-evaluation caused.
That is all.
I can make a bunch of objections to this "study", but there is one big elephant in the room -- it does not concern itself with outcomes, at all!
The study proved that if you give doctors some information they'll make a diagnosis and if you then provide more information they might change their mind. There is zero evidence that this change of mind was useful.
JB.
New member
Yes, it's easy to forget that the fickle public drives much of the process. As with any industry, when there is high demand and money burning holes in pockets somewhere, ways will be found to relieve the burn.
As for drugs or treatments coming out too fast or too slow, I lean towards faster just on principle, but it doesn't mean I'll be standing in line to demand them unless, of course, circumstances happen to spin my perspective on a dime in which case all bets are off.
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slapdappy
Banned
I don't understand how looking at the working brain has no diagnostic value.
80,000+ scans = 40,000 + patients.
Where are all of the suckers complaining about the scam they fell for? Where are all of the mothers and fathers who have taken their ADD ridden children in for help only to realize it is all a scam run by a greedy group of highly trained and licensed physicians who have decided to collude and exploit for their own selfish material desires?
SPECT scans definitely have no diagnostic value when trying to determine the severity of brain damage sustained by NFL players. There is no value in looking to see how any of the areas may be functioning at a reduced level because of repeated blows to the head. A much better diagnosis will be achieved clinically, because clinical diagnosis is always the most reliable and accurate.
Obviously, depression and ADD and all the other stuff is best treated with talk therapy because the scammers who insist these are brain chemistry issues are lairs with suspect credential's and motives. Therapists treat their patients for free, as do surgeons and physical therapists and nurses because charging money for their services would be unethical. The amount one should pay for medical services is inversely proportional to their value, right? The best surgeons charge the least amount of money for their services. Oh yeah... the real ones, the good ones, the honest ones don't charge for their time and expertise; the patient does not pay for any medical supplies used. Forcing a sick patient to pay for appointments and diagnostic tests and medicines is only done by scam artists. No legitimate doctor who actually cared about helping to heal a patient would charge for their ministrations. No effective course of treatment ever costs money.
Do you understand that the maladies suffered by patients of the Amen Clinic have already been treated with medications? The question that the Amen Clinic helps to answer is which medications in which combinations will most assist in bringing the patient's brain to a healthy state. Do you understand this? The Amen Clinic helps diagnose much more accurately and specifically the type and degree of severity of ADD or PTSD or depression which is wreaking havoc on the lives of those who go there.
All of the dire warnings and claims of snake oil come from individuals who have absolutely NO experience with the Amen Clinic, either directly or via a close friend/family member. None. Zero. All of the 'I know nothing about it but I assert it is without substance' are people without any direct contact with the Amen Clinic, with SPECT Scans, with the 1000's and 1000's and 1000's of patients who have been returned to functioning health because of Dr Amen and his pioneering diagnostic work with the SPECT scan.
So, stop having x-rays of supposedly broken bones, stop having MRI's and CT scans because actually seeing the organ or bone or ligament in question has no diagnostic value. Make sure that your doctor diagnoses you clinically by looking at you, touching and pulling and poking, and asking you questions so that he/she can decide whether your shoulder needs surgical repair. Make sure to avoid imaging scams, yes scams, of your heart before surgery because the only reliable method of diagnosis is the good old fashioned clinical way. After all, you wouldn't want to expose yourself to the horrors of a nominal dose of radiation when your life is at stake. Definitely rely upon an external visual inspection and queries to devise the most accurate and rational course of treatment. After all, the gold standard of treatment is always the subjective supposings of a artful doctor. Machine and equipment based diagnostic procedures have no real value.
80,000+ scans = 40,000 + patients.
Where are all of the suckers complaining about the scam they fell for? Where are all of the mothers and fathers who have taken their ADD ridden children in for help only to realize it is all a scam run by a greedy group of highly trained and licensed physicians who have decided to collude and exploit for their own selfish material desires?
SPECT scans definitely have no diagnostic value when trying to determine the severity of brain damage sustained by NFL players. There is no value in looking to see how any of the areas may be functioning at a reduced level because of repeated blows to the head. A much better diagnosis will be achieved clinically, because clinical diagnosis is always the most reliable and accurate.
Obviously, depression and ADD and all the other stuff is best treated with talk therapy because the scammers who insist these are brain chemistry issues are lairs with suspect credential's and motives. Therapists treat their patients for free, as do surgeons and physical therapists and nurses because charging money for their services would be unethical. The amount one should pay for medical services is inversely proportional to their value, right? The best surgeons charge the least amount of money for their services. Oh yeah... the real ones, the good ones, the honest ones don't charge for their time and expertise; the patient does not pay for any medical supplies used. Forcing a sick patient to pay for appointments and diagnostic tests and medicines is only done by scam artists. No legitimate doctor who actually cared about helping to heal a patient would charge for their ministrations. No effective course of treatment ever costs money.
Do you understand that the maladies suffered by patients of the Amen Clinic have already been treated with medications? The question that the Amen Clinic helps to answer is which medications in which combinations will most assist in bringing the patient's brain to a healthy state. Do you understand this? The Amen Clinic helps diagnose much more accurately and specifically the type and degree of severity of ADD or PTSD or depression which is wreaking havoc on the lives of those who go there.
All of the dire warnings and claims of snake oil come from individuals who have absolutely NO experience with the Amen Clinic, either directly or via a close friend/family member. None. Zero. All of the 'I know nothing about it but I assert it is without substance' are people without any direct contact with the Amen Clinic, with SPECT Scans, with the 1000's and 1000's and 1000's of patients who have been returned to functioning health because of Dr Amen and his pioneering diagnostic work with the SPECT scan.
So, stop having x-rays of supposedly broken bones, stop having MRI's and CT scans because actually seeing the organ or bone or ligament in question has no diagnostic value. Make sure that your doctor diagnoses you clinically by looking at you, touching and pulling and poking, and asking you questions so that he/she can decide whether your shoulder needs surgical repair. Make sure to avoid imaging scams, yes scams, of your heart before surgery because the only reliable method of diagnosis is the good old fashioned clinical way. After all, you wouldn't want to expose yourself to the horrors of a nominal dose of radiation when your life is at stake. Definitely rely upon an external visual inspection and queries to devise the most accurate and rational course of treatment. After all, the gold standard of treatment is always the subjective supposings of a artful doctor. Machine and equipment based diagnostic procedures have no real value.
1engineer
Moderator
Dude, you should have let this thread die. Do you just like getting bashed?
Several here, including me, have never said you did not get help there and that includes many others who I'm sure got help there too. It's the SPECT scans we have problems with. Most here have been as nice as the internet allows and tried to tell you all this. [MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] even took time and posted good links to tell you all this information.
Once again: Amen Clinics treat patients exactly like a normal psychiatric clinic would except the mumbo jumbo with the SPECT scans. With them doing that I lose any credibility with them personally.
Again, just let this thread go away.
slapdappy
Banned
Re this topic, getting bashed is a variable I factor out of the equation.
No, I will not let this thread die as long as naysayers continue to cast doubt upon both the Amen Clinic's and the SPECT scan's efficacy and value. I fear that someone who can greatly benefit from the Amen Clinic's expertise will be dissuaded from it by the bashings from those who have simply copied and pasted a few googles.
Re T posts, #31 bemoans the fact that the Amen Clinic requires TWO scans. If he had actually read about the procedure he would have learned that the procedure IS two scans, a baseline and a concentration. Criticism based upon the TWO scan requirement evinces simple ignorance, which indicates very little time and effort to learn about the process described on the Amen website vs lots of time cutting and pasting from simple 'Amen is a fraud' or 'Amen methods criticized' or 'SPECT scan bad' searches.
Start searching for criticism from the people who have actually been to an Amen Clinic.
Continue looking for the 1000's of complaints that should exist if the Amen method is not as effective as I, thekid, the other 5 people I've cited, and the 500 patient study shows it be.
Go ahead, keep bashing. I'll keep refuting.
1engineer
Moderator
It's dead. You go on and keep believing. I will go on and never set foot there. End. Of. Discussion.
NorCalBorn
New member
slapdappy
Banned
I hope you and those close to you will never need to go. I hope you and those you love will continue to be healthy. I hope neither you nor your loved ones will ever be afflicted with the kinds of debilitating brain chemistry issues which compel people to seek the insight, expertise, and depth of experience offered by the Amen Clinics. Truly, this is my wish for you.
I also hope this is the beginning of a discussion which will continue for a long time - not with you, of course. You have made a simple and absolute declaration. Be well.
