Also dude, I think more than a few on this forum are perfectly willing to have this kind of conversation, but please stop trying to turn this into a conservative versus liberal flame war....it really detracts from this conversation's credibility, and yours.
Amount wasted on gas vs going hybrid or EV?
- Thread starter Toyfour14
- Start date
Also dude, I think more than a few on this forum are perfectly willing to have this kind of conversation, but please stop trying to turn this into a conservative versus liberal flame war....it really detracts from this conversation's credibility, and yours.
stamonkey
New member
So.... I'm an engineer that works in the power industry (even though my username doesn't say it :ybrick
and there is a lot of miss information on this thread from several different people.
There is no silver bullet to generate electricity, wind doesn't blow all the time, the sun doesn't shine sometimes, coal pollutes, the gas market is super volatile, nuclear is a pariah with some risk, and to top it off we don't have any efficient ways to store any excess generation.
To answer the original question that this thread was about. I use my 4Runner (and FJ before it) for enjoying what the area has to offer, it doesn't see many miles. I have a VW TDI Sportwagen for longer trips.
and there is a lot of miss information on this thread from several different people. There is no silver bullet to generate electricity, wind doesn't blow all the time, the sun doesn't shine sometimes, coal pollutes, the gas market is super volatile, nuclear is a pariah with some risk, and to top it off we don't have any efficient ways to store any excess generation.
To answer the original question that this thread was about. I use my 4Runner (and FJ before it) for enjoying what the area has to offer, it doesn't see many miles. I have a VW TDI Sportwagen for longer trips.
paddlenbike
Member
I am leasing a Nissan Leaf for 3 years. I went for it because after all expenses are paid (lease cost, registration and insurance), I actually save a very small amount of money each month compared to driving my 4Runner. A full electric car is actually fun to drive--there is no comparison between the driving experience of a full EV and a car like a Prius.
It drives nice, doesn't pollute, no oil changes, no maintenance, no time spent at the gas station (plug it in at home) and my 4Runner stays at home in the garage when it's needed for trips, towing, etc.
I like driving electric so much I won't buy another gas car. For drives that go beyond the range of an EV, I would probably be driving the 4Runner anyway. My 4Runner + an EV in my garage are perfect for my needs.
It drives nice, doesn't pollute, no oil changes, no maintenance, no time spent at the gas station (plug it in at home) and my 4Runner stays at home in the garage when it's needed for trips, towing, etc.
I like driving electric so much I won't buy another gas car. For drives that go beyond the range of an EV, I would probably be driving the 4Runner anyway. My 4Runner + an EV in my garage are perfect for my needs.
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Jetboy
New member
Unfortunately that's exactly what the issue is. We know wind output. We know generally when it blows. We have what we call 8760 output charts (every hour of the year). We also know the solar output. We know the costs.
The real question is what the future of our system looks like. Is it distributed generation - roof top solar, or will we continue to have a grid. Barclays and Bloomberg both think roof top solar will replace the grid. And soon enough to devalue utilities today. Either way it will not be coal. It won't. Coal is gone in 20 years. There should be no question about it. It's over.
The nonsense about denying global warming etc. is religious/political. It's like saying autism is caused by vaccines. It's not science. It is politics at the point you choose the answer first then look for a group of "scientists" that support your answer. Even if you don't believe in global warming, coal is still going to be phased out. It's not even close to cost competitive with natural gas for new resources.
And where this comes back to the thread is that electric cars are the future. And it simply isn't accurate to use average system generation for estimates of emissions for charging electric cars at night. So the claim that they're dirtier than gas is simply wrong. Not unlike someone who says TDI is cleaner than a hybrid. It's not even remotely close. And the gap is growing because our thermal generation is getting cleaner and the renewable portion is getting larger.
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Cool thread.
I am a dichotomy along the auto front. I own the least efficient and most efficient vehicles that Toyota has to offer in the USA.
One is the 13 mpg truck made worse due to my love for big, heavy tires and poorer aero caused by lift.
The other is the Prius compact which nets 50 mpg all day with bright led headlights as standard.
I love driving both. Prius is fun because it is small, nimble, quiet on electric mode. I don't have any desire to modify it because Toyota has done such a stellar job with making the car great at what it's supposed to be. I love the super quick stops at the gas station. It's like 7 gallons to full it seems. I don't even keep track honestly.
I am a dichotomy along the auto front. I own the least efficient and most efficient vehicles that Toyota has to offer in the USA.
One is the 13 mpg truck made worse due to my love for big, heavy tires and poorer aero caused by lift.
The other is the Prius compact which nets 50 mpg all day with bright led headlights as standard.
I love driving both. Prius is fun because it is small, nimble, quiet on electric mode. I don't have any desire to modify it because Toyota has done such a stellar job with making the car great at what it's supposed to be. I love the super quick stops at the gas station. It's like 7 gallons to full it seems. I don't even keep track honestly.
Taco04
Member
"Unfortunately that's exactly what the issue is. We know wind output. We know generally when it blows. We have what we call 8760 output charts (every hour of the year). We also know the solar output. We know the costs."
Did You know this contributes to global warming? I live close to a real wind farm and guess what? It's not free energy like you seem to believe! Temperatures behind the wind farms are on the rise due to less air movement. It's just simple physics... There is NO such thing as FREE energy it All comes with a cost!
Did You know this contributes to global warming? I live close to a real wind farm and guess what? It's not free energy like you seem to believe! Temperatures behind the wind farms are on the rise due to less air movement. It's just simple physics... There is NO such thing as FREE energy it All comes with a cost!
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LandCruiser
New member
They also spectacularly hack up birds.
Saw a flock of Canadian geese fly into a turbine in Colorado:roadkill:
Taco04
Member
Sounds a lot like a solar farm the drops birds Dead in flight....:flamethrwoer2:
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Jetboy
New member
I don't think it contributes to global warming. There's the whole thing about conservation of energy. It's more of a question of where the heat is. Of course the turbine can only slow the wind about 50% at max efficiency.
Long term I think wind loses to solar. For the reason of unpredictable output and high o&m costs. And they do kill a lot of birds and bats.
Jhalko
New member
Agreed [MENTION=48772]Jesse1983[/MENTION] Please!
Taco04
Member
So what is your scientific background in?
BlackWorksInc
New member
Actually you would be best served to look into some research cropping up now that we're building larger wind farms. The more of them you stick together, the larger the cumulative effect of the wind change there is. There's been recorded microclimate changes in areas of wind farms that affect those regions; that whole "unintended consequences of moving too fast with no caution " thing I was mentioning earlier.
Wind Power Found to Affect Local Climate - Scientific American
The issue isn't so much climate change on global scale, but rather microclimate changes that could affect local ecology. Which could have compounding effects on the environment overall that may be difficult to predict.
Again, it all goes back to us rushing technology we think is "green" without looking at the bigger picture overall. IF we're just going to keep pushing "green" technology without really thinking about it, we might as well just start seeding the oceans and smoking the skies to adjust the Earth to our desired temperature, screw consequences when we know better!
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stamonkey
New member
A risky click, but worth it.
Jetboy
New member
Physics.
Jetboy
New member
Actually you would be best served to look into some research cropping up now that we're building larger wind farms. The more of them you stick together, the larger the cumulative effect of the wind change there is. There's been recorded microclimate changes in areas of wind farms that affect those regions; that whole "unintended consequences of moving too fast with no caution " thing I was mentioning earlier.
Wind Power Found to Affect Local Climate - Scientific American
The issue isn't so much climate change on global scale, but rather microclimate changes that could affect local ecology. Which could have compounding effects on the environment overall that may be difficult to predict.
Again, it all goes back to us rushing technology we think is "green" without looking at the bigger picture overall. IF we're just going to keep pushing "green" technology without really thinking about it, we might as well just start seeding the oceans and smoking the skies to adjust the Earth to our desired temperature, screw consequences when we know better!
So in the meantime let's burn coal? Apparently you know the consequences and are comfortable with them? Much better to live down wind from a coal power plant than a wound farm right?
Taco04
Member
Sorry but Living in Texas I know this is false there is No free electricity at night they actually raise your rates during the day so it's still the same. This was just a TXU scam to get people to join it was busted a long time ago.
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