Another Speakers Amplifier Install

[rigtec]

"...I could sell the hd600/4 and make enough money to get an xd700/5."

Not sure why you'd go from a HD600/4 to a XD700/5. First, the HD series is JL's "top-of-the-line", take no prisoners workhorse. Plus, if you go to an XD700/5, your sub will receive less power, 180w into 4 ohms as compared to 300w (bridged) into 4 ohms. Rule of thumb: the sub-woofer(s) need to have (available), "at least" the equivalent, amount of power that is provided to the entire "main" speaker system. That's because the amount of air needed to be moved to create the low freq (dnwards of 50hz) sound wavefront, requires, likely 10 times the amount of energy, than it does to develop "musical midbass" tones. In addition to that, going from 600w to 700w will not give an audible change in decibels. Doubling the power of an amplifier (or 3db increase) won't even give a "twice as loud" effect, as 3db is the smallest change in volume that can be perceived by the human ear. Opps... didn't mean to preach :sorry:

"...So 2 more speaker wires and 1 rca. Where do I tap the 3rd sni35 for the rear speakers?"

The third sni35, if I'm understanding you correctly, won't be needed. You have sni35-1, assigned to L & R front. Then, sni35-2 assigned L & R rear (bridge mono) the sub's channel. Are you using the tailgate speakers? If so, you can't feed them with the same signal that's feeding your sub. These speaker's parameters are very different from the sub's, and aren't able to operate in the same frequency range. That's why we use a x-over to separate them, and never... use dissimilar drivers in the same freq range, in the same listening environment; that's where "phase cancellation" becomes a factor and a problem.

If you are planning to use the tailgate speakers, than perhaps, you should get a 5ch amp, then you could drive the sub-woofer off of the "front hu output" as the sub's amp has it's own "Remote level control" (RLC); costs $20 bucks, mounts anywhere on the panel below the steering wheel, so it can be adjusted "on-the-fly". The rear speakers can (of course), be controlled using the fader. PS: I'm sure you'll have some new questions after all that, so I'll be near my computer lol!

Greg

 

[rigtec]

Hi jack...'

Just thinkin'. Instead of going with a 5 channel amp and losing power to the sub, why not consider adding a "designated" mono-block amp (like a XD 600/1) for your sub-woofer? To explain, if you get the "JL XD700/5" the 5th channel is (180W/4ohms) for a sub-woofer, but each channel is only 75W into a 4 ohm load. The HD600/4 was at least capable of 150W/ch into 4 ohms, so your L & R front "combined", provided 300W. And the two rear channels "bridged" gave you 300W for the sub. Take a look at these amps/prices as options; just don't want to see you throw your money away today, and then realize that there was another (better) way to get it done.

This "Alpine PDX M6", for instance, was only $282.00 Amazon.com: Alpine PDX-M6 Mono Power Density Digital Amplifier: Car Electronics Great lil' amp to handle your sub, and will provide a full 600W into 2 or 4 ohms.

Or, This ("Refurbished") jl XD600/1, subwoofer "Mono-block". It was only $249.00 bucks and can develop 400W into 4 ohms, or a full 600W into a 2 ohm load. So just in case you decide to expand or upgrade your speaker system in the future, your amp is always ready! Refurbished JL Audio XD600/1-B Amplifier*| Creative Car Audio

You know, I'm pretty satisfied with the system that I have now, but I've spent (wasted) a considerable amount of money on projects that just didn't work out, mostly because of things that I couldn't see... "Before"... I spent it. So I was always "upgrading", as opposed to getting it right "the first time"! Well, just something to think about. Good luck and "Happy motoring"! :driving: beep beep!

 

[jackolero]

Damn, Greg sounds like you have a PhD on caraudiolgy.:heh:M ade me dizzy just reading that. Just thought about adding another 6.5 woofer on the rear door so I can still have decent bass when I'm hauling eithout the sub. I didn't know hd line was top of the line, I just really got it for really cheap I guess I'll hold on it for a while to see how I like it. I just ran the xtra wires for future upgrades. Would like to keep it simple with 1 amp. New alpines are really nice and small as well.

This sub can't handle the hd600/4, gain all the way down and already unbridged it, fader to front -3 and the woofer just bottoms out easily. This sub might be dud, or I just need a higher rms sub. Do you know a good shallow mount sub with 300 rms.?

 

[rigtec]

"...This sub might be dud, or I just need a higher rms sub. Do you know a good shallow mount sub with 300 rms.?"

Well, think of it this way: Don't compromise by trying to find a speaker to fit into an inferior box; that's like buying a wedding ring because it's on sale, then trying to find a bride who'll fit into it. :crazy:

Instead, maybe do this. Pick up an Empty "sealed box" for $35 bucks or so: Amazon.com: Bbox Pro Series Single 10-Inch Sealed Subwoofer Enclosure (Charcoal): Electronics Then, get a used JL "10W6v2-D4" driver (sub); can be found on-line for $100 bucks, or an Alpine "SWR-10D4" both incredibly superior devices, and will handle 600W "true RMS". With other audio components, you may get away with cutting a few corners here and there, but with subs... you'll be truely sorry you did it; tis the nature of the beast!

Greg

 

[jackolero]

I know what you mean but unforunately I need something that'll fit behind third now so I don't have to take it off when I use third row and the box I got fits perfectly behind there.

This pioneer sw2501s4 got some great reviews. Might pull the trigger later today unless you can suggest another option.

 

[axxman]

Hey jac, i understand your dilemma, you can see my stereo thread in my signature, i have the xd700/5, if you ever want to hear it, i live near tampa, i travel for work but i am home every 6 weeks or so.

 

[rigtec]

"...Might pull the trigger later today unless you can suggest another option."

If you use the Alpine "SWR 10-D4", you'll only need 6 inches ("pun intended" :banplease between the baffle's face (mounting flange) and the "magnetic back plate". It's not that I find fault with the "Pioneer" per'se, but I read it's spec sheet (I live by them), and the data that was "left out" (t/s parameters), was left out for good reason; "less than impressive actual test results". I did like it's small size, but let's just say... a $75 speaker is a $75 speaker. I don't want you to spend more than your budget will allow, but investing into audio equipment for a brand new truck that's... "just okay"..., (to me) isn't okay at all! I've said enough! Choose wisely, then enjoy your new machine!!

rigtec, cheers

 

[rigtec]

Forgot to mention jack'

I've got two, "Empty" JL CVS110-RGW6v2 cabinets that I bought when I first got the truck in April, 2012. The drivers were removed when I started my next project, which was a large, 2x10 bass reflex cabinet. The cabinets are quite small but with the right drivers, will kick some serious booty! you are welcome to grab them if you are willing to pay the Shpg costs, "US Postal Service". I'm not sure if I am allowed to discuss any selling price here on this forum, but I'm not trying to get rich this way. If you're interested, you can P.M. me and I'll give you my email addr. "here's a photo"

 

[jackolero]

I know what you mean but this started with budget in mind and it just one thing led to another so I guess it's not a budget build anymore.
What's the dimension of the box? Looks deep though . If its over 10 in deep doubt it will fit with 3rd row up.
I'll look in to that Alpine my box slopes though so it has to be really shallow.

Axxman thanks for the offer will probably take you on that one day. How did you come up with 3 rca signals to the amp from stock HU?

I'm doing door treatments right now using this thread mainly. Assman what did you cover the 2 gaping holes in the door? I'm thinking of ghetto covering it with duct tape packed with some rubber inserts. Did you cover outer and inner door with dynamat?

 

[rigtec]

I know what you mean but this started with budget in mind and it just one thing led to another so I guess it's not a budget build anymore.

hwell: All of my projects end up "over budget"! Have you seen my photo galleries yet?? Take a quick look at my two 4Runner albums: Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum - View Profile: rigtec Most of that stuff wasn't planned, hence the term... "Over budget"!

But you know, I really don't mind that much B'cuz this is just a hobby for me; nothing very practical about throwing thousands of dollars into a brand new truck. And I think that the reason they're always going over budget, is because my standard of satisfaction is so very unforgiving; everything I do has got to be "above average". That's where my OCD becomes a problem! :ybrick:

"...What's the dimension of the box? Looks deep though . If its over 10 in deep doubt it will fit with 3rd row up. ...my box slopes though, so it has to be really shallow"

These boxes are shaped just like yours, a wedge. They're made to fit behind the back seat of an suv, so they fit tightly against the "backrest" of the seats. Their dimensions are: (W)14"x (H)12.5"x(D1)11"x(D2)7" Note: D1 = bottom depth, D2 = Top depth P.S: Please don't think that I'm trying to sell you anything, they're packed away in storage and are not for sale. It's just that I see you struggling to pull it all together, and doing a fine job; I guess I wanted to help. "Keep up the great work"!

Greg, (rig) cheers

 

[axxman]

When i was useing the stock HU i just used the line level inputs and set the amp to sum them. The built in cross over took care of the sub. This past spring i added an alpine head unit with 3 sets of rca outputs.

 

[Hawaiian4runner]

Yes definitely... It doesn't matter!

Doesn't matter as far as the tweeters themselves are concerned but it does matter that the polarity matches the door speakers or they will be out of phase.

 

[rigtec]

When two 180 deg, "out of phase" soundwaves (of that same frequency) meet, before they travel one 1/4 of their full length, they combine destructively and cancel each other out. That's a problem with very long soundwaves; like at 25hz where the wave is 40' long. If that wave comes in contact with another (180 deg. out of ph) soundwave @ 25cps before it reaches 10ft (1/4 wave), they will cancel out.

But remember, a soundwave of 6,000hz is only 0.1875 (3/16's) of an inch full length, so there's no chance that the soundwave of the door speaker and the dash speaker meet before they've traveled one 1/4 distance of their full length, therefore, they'll be no possibility of destructive sound anomalies, other than the normal "room mode" hot or deadspots.

Additionally, all soundwaves become out of phase with others, at some point, at some position in the room, but that doesn't mean that the room goes silent... It only means that there will be some better listening positions than others in that room; tis' physics!

 

[rigtec]

"...This past spring i added an alpine head unit with 3 sets of rca outputs."

Hi axxman,

How do you like the Alpine hu, any problem with "voice commands, bluetooth pairing, back-up camera" (not sure if your sr5 has prem pkg or nav), etc... I've considered replacing my hu, but was a lil' hesitant, due to the potential for trouble with compatibility issues. Anything to be concerned about? Also, what about the USB and AUX IPOD ports, will they still work?

rig

 

[jackolero]

I appreciate the offer man I'll let you know if I need it. That alpine though looks like it'll need some good amount of power though to get the most out of it.

Looking at jl 600/4 specs here I notice it has same power output for 8 and 4 ohm 300rms. How is that possible from what I know where you change the load the RMS changes as well. Looking at dvc fosgate sub here And planning on running it 8 ohm.

 

[rigtec]

"...That alpine though looks like it'll need some good amount of power though to get the most out of it?"

That's true of most "high quality", sub's with long travel suspension system (xmax) capability; it must trade some sensitivity to handle huge power demands.

"...Looking at jl 600/4 specs here I notice it has same power output for 8 and 4 ohm 300rms. How is that possible from what I know where you change the load the RMS changes as well."

I'm not too sure, but I know that "physics don't change", technology does. So it likely raises (doubles) the output voltages into higher impedance loads (like into 8 ohms), so that the output current (power) can remain the same into any load (1.5-4 ohms or 4-8 ohms "bridged"); maybe someone else here can offer a more reliable explanation; kinda like to know myself.

Looking at dvc fosgate sub here And planning on running it 8 ohm.

Sounds perfect! I definately like that driver much better than the Pioneer... and they even published the spec sheet! http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/products/details/p3sd4-10#section3 :thumb3: P.S: Hope you're taking lots of photos; this'll be a great, new build thread!

rig, cheers

 

[jackolero]

I guess it's the RIPS system that they have that makes it possible. So wiring the RF sub 8 ohms should probably work better for the hd600/4 according to this thread about 8 ohmsload..

I tried to take photos with my phone that I think might be helpful for others in the future. So yeah I'll post them up when I get the time off again. The sub is on its way here tuesday, damn veterans day delaying my fix for bass..

 

[rigtec]

Hi jack'

Yeah, the JL HD-600/4 is a winner! What are you using to drive the rear tailgate speakers, just the hu's rear output?

 

[jackolero]

Rigtec rears are powered by hu right now. Works ok for filling rears for now Surprised sub came in and just trying to clean up loose ends.

Noticed my amp doesn't turn off when radio is off but it turns off when car is off. So pulled the hu again and tried one out of the 2 blue wires (supposedly ant and remote amp), now amp turns off when hu is off even when car is running but amp turns off when the hu is switched from radio to aux/usb. So I figured thats the ant wire so I tried the 2nd blue wire and it's just like the way it was orignally. My question is are all your amps on when the car is on even when hu is off? or it doesn't really matter?

Rig how do you set up the amp gain by ear or by multimeter?

 

[rigtec]

My question is are all your amps on when the car is on even when hu is off? or it doesn't really matter?

It's okay. My amps are on whenever the engine is running; no harm done! I have the "Remote turn on" wired to the 20A "courtesy"(interior lamps) / 12v"acc power" circuit.

Rig how do you set up the amp gain by ear or by multimeter?

The last time I did it, I turned on the HU / CD player (power amp off), lowered the treble & mids to be flat (center line), and cut the bass (-9db). Then, I played music tracks that were "Heavily saturated" with low bass program (like "Hip-Hop"/ "R&B"). After that, I turned the hu up (power amp still off), to about 3/4 to 4/5th's of the way, or just about where the hu starts to distort... and then I backed it off until it sounded very clean.

The idea is, you don't want to "over-drive"(distort) the sub-woofer amp's "input stage" circuit, under any circumstances. If you do, it'll sound like your subwoofers (speakers) are "literally" coming apart. So this "Input sensitivity" adjustment is really important. Next, once you know that the hu has achieved it's maximum output level w/o creating any distortion, make a note of how much you turned the vol knob up; just for reference.

Okay, back off of the hu's volume. Now, with the amplifier's "Remote Level Control" disconnected, the "Input sensitivity" dial turned all the way down (counter clockwise), and the High/low sens. range switch set to "low", turn the power amp on. Then, turn up the volume on the hu until you reach that same place where you marked the vol. limit earlier. Okay, using a song that has a strong bass program, begin to advance the input sensitivity dial. Keep turning it up until you hear the bass or "Kicks" begin to sound a little distorted; that's not the power amp, running out of headroom, that's the "input stage" getting "SLAMMED".

Now, back it off until that distortion goes "completely away". Now, choose a different song, one with a more, "average" (typical) sounding bass. Turn up the hu to the mark. try to determine if the bass is loud enough; don't forget, the first music you sampled had an "exaggerated" bass signal, so we needed to buffer it down a bit. But this piece of material has an "average bass", more closely representing what you'll hear everyday, so you may need to increase the amp's sensitivity just a little; you be judge!

Once your satisfied with both types of bass material reproduction, you can plug in the remote level control and you're done! Hope this helps. "That truck's sound is going to be sooo nice!" enjoy,

Greg, best regards