BALL JOINTS: Sankei 555 (Moog/Raybestos) Poor Quality/Design Flaw??? My Findings...

[nobb]

I know there are already a gazillion threads on this topic for our notorious lower ball joints, but I thought I would share my findings and get your thoughts and experiences on this issue. I had the chance recently to inspect some Raybestos lower ball joints. They came in a generic white box with a Raybestos sticker on it, but the actual joints themselves are branded Sankei 555. Many people claim that Sankei is the manufacturer of the OEM joints, and as such, they are good quality. I will argue against this as I've also had the opportunity to compare brand new Toyota OEM joints with the Sankei. As some background info, it appears that these Sankei 555 joints are also resold by Moog, Raybestos, Napa Premium Chassis, and Beck/Arnley.

When I inspected the Sankei 555 joint, I was impressed by the greaseable design and also the fact that the dust cap had a little opening for excess grease to come out. However, that was where my positive impressions ended. The dust boot itself felt thin (like it could puncture easily) in comparison to the NOK japanese branded rubber boot on the OEM joint.

I'm no grease expert, but I'll also comment on the grease differences between the OEM and aftermarket joints. The aftermarket joint has a yellow sticky grease (as pictured) which resembles the generic lithium grease you would get when you buy a grease gun and they give you some free grease. This transparent color suggests to me that this grease does not have much in terms of extreme pressure (moly) additives. The OEM joint uses a white grease which appears to be soap (sodium) based. If it is indeed a soap grease, then it would have excellent water repelling and shock loading properties, as well as being very "sticky" in regards to not being pushed out from contacting surfaces. Once again, I am not a grease expert so don't take my word on this. Just my observations and thoughts.

However, the most troubling finding is the movement of the joint itself. When I moved the ball piece, I noticed a TERRIBLE amount of resistance. Almost as if the ball was grinding inside the socket. It just FEELS like metal on metal contact and in my opinion, this will cause heat buildup and wear. And it is NOT a smooth type of resistance either. It was notchy, uneven resistance. In comparison, the new Toyota OEM joints have a smooth fluid movement.

I was curious as to what causes so much uneven resistance so I took the grease boot off and inspected. What I found was that the ball had a grease channel cut in to allow for grease to be evenly distributed inside the joint. The OEM ball joint does not have this feature. This grease channel could be what is causing the grinding. I cannot say for certain, however.

But what I DID find was very interesting. I will let the following pictures speak for themselves:

Note the scratches/scuff marks on the ball? I literally created those scratches on the fly JUST BY MOVING THE BALL IN THE SOCKET at most maybe 20 times. So if I was able to create those scratches just by moving the ball by hand, imagine what is happening when these joints are installed on a moving vehicle and the suspension is constantly going up and down. I did NOT notice this to be a problem with the Toyota OEM joints.

This can't be normal, so I would like to hear your experiences and opinions of these Sankei 555/Raybestos/Napa/Moog joints. Is this the final nail in the coffin as to why you should only buy OEM? Am I overreacting?

 

[Doc2012]

I can't say for certain if you are over reacting or if the BJs are bad.

I CAN tell you however that I've been running the ones Advanced sells, and havent had any problems. I believe they're the Moog ones...

Nothing beats OEM, however. If I had the cash to buy the OEM ones, I would have.

 

[chuck norris]

FYI... just because the casting is a 555 doesn't mean the guts are from Sankei. I've been researching the hell out of this recently and I now have a new pair of Sankei joints at home waiting to be installed this week. Any brand besides OEM Toyota or Sankei will buy new or used 555 castings and install their own guts into them. The only way to guarantee a real Sankei joint is to buy a Sankei or a Toyota joint. I looked at some new Meyle joints to compare and the machining on the ball was noticeably rougher.

I can see why everyone recommends Sankei/OEM brand for these... the difference is worth the money.

 

[nobb]

Can you comment on if your Sankei joints have a rough movement? I called Raybestos and they confirmed that Sankei was their distributor for these joints.

I am not sure if Sankei is really the manufacturer of the OEM joints because they are completely different than any Sankei branded joint. eg. Toyota joints have: no grease hole, black painted exterior, NOK rubber seal, and white (silicon?) grease on the inside.

 

[chuck norris]

Can you comment on if your Sankei joints have a rough movement? I called Raybestos and they confirmed that Sankei was their distributor for these joints.

I am not sure if Sankei is really the manufacturer of the OEM joints because they are completely different than any Sankei branded joint. eg. Toyota joints have: no grease hole, black painted exterior, NOK rubber seal, and white (silicon?) grease on the inside.

Wow, I haven't heard that Toyota isn't using Sankei anymore but I could see them changing suppliers over the years.

My Sankei joints are very smooth, especially compared to the Meyle joints I looked at. I have yet to pop the grease boots off to check out the guts but they appear much higher quality overall.

 

[Motohead]

I recently replaced my LBJs as well and did a bit of research. After everything I read, I decided to buy the proprietary Raybestos ball joints, but was surprised to find that I received 555 parts in the mail. I did notice that one of the joints felt exactly how you are decribing it, but I needed to get the vehicle back on the road so I am running it.

I was angry that I didn't get the parts I ordered, but relieved that they were at least Japanese parts... Not great though. Especially when Raybestos advertised a special ball/cup design and sent me a scratchy traditonal joint...

 

[BrianSD_42]

I am not sure if Sankei is really the manufacturer of the OEM joints because they are completely different than any Sankei branded joint. eg

HERE is what I learned from talking to someone who owns a Toyota repair shop and orders parts.

1) There rarely a sole distributor for ANY Toyota part. Meaning one year Koyo had the contract to manufacture the radiator for the 4Runner. Toyota bought from them. A few years later it was another manufacturer. The SAME thing exists for nearly all parts on a 4Runner.

2) As long as a manufacturer was at one point a direct supplier for Toyota for that exact part (eg Koyo radiator), then you can buy that part directly from the manufacturer with confidence.

3) So given this example say Koyo made the radiators for 4Runners from 96-98 (just an example) but some other manu made them from 99-02, and a 3rd company supplies them post end of 3rd-gen-production. This means if you walked into a dealer in 96, 99 and 02 you might have received a radiator made by different manufacturer. All these are good parts ---> you can still buy a Koyo put it on your 01' 4Runner even though they haven't been the official parts manu for that part since 98.

//End of example - I don't know what actual years Koyo made said part but that is how it works //

Get it? Other members please feel free to elaborate.

What you want to AVOID is parts that were never OEM, that reverse engineered it and never held a official contract with Toyota.

Example: pretty much anything made by MOOG (which is NAPA's cheap (translate: lower quality) brand.

 

[Nelsonmd]

HERE is what I learned from talking to someone who owns a Toyota repair shop and orders parts.

1) There rarely a sole distributor for ANY Toyota part. Meaning one year Koyo had the contract to manufacture the radiator for the 4Runner. Toyota bought from them. A few years later it was another manufacturer. The SAME thing exists for nearly all parts on a 4Runner.

2) As long as a manufacturer was at one point a direct supplier for Toyota for that exact part (eg Koyo radiator), then you can buy that part directly from the manufacturer with confidence.

3) So given this example say Koyo made the radiators for 4Runners from 96-98 (just an example) but some other manu made them from 99-02, and a 3rd company supplies them post end of 3rd-gen-production. This means if you walked into a dealer in 96, 99 and 02 you might have received a radiator made by different manufacturer. All these are good parts ---> you can still buy a Koyo put it on your 01' 4Runner even though they haven't been the official parts manu for that part since 98.

//End of example - I don't know what actual years Koyo made said part but that is how it works //

Get it? Other members please feel free to elaborate.

What you want to AVOID is parts that were never OEM, that reverse engineered it and never held a official contract with Toyota.

Example: pretty much anything made by MOOG (which is NAPA's cheap (translate: lower quality) brand.

This is right on. As I said in the other thread where I got a bunch of crap for explaining this, contracts get re-negotiated constantly and can change any year. For components like LBJ's, there probably isn't alot of IP involved, so there is more opportunity for similar or equivalent quality from other suppliers, but like brian said, I wouldn't trust a company that has not recently been the OEM supplier of the specific component. In the case of Sankei, Maybe they weren't the OEM supplier to Toyota for the years mentioned in the message, but just looking at their website, they are a common OEM supplier to Toyota and Honda, so maybe they just missed those years for LBJ's.

For all the insulting of MOOG I do (I think with good reason) and lack of trust in them, I did just buy a moog u joint. OEM was $100, Moog and everything else was $12-20. At that kind of cost saving, I'll take the relatively small risk of it failing or replacing it earlier.

 

[Nelsonmd]

BTW, are those pictures supposed to be the same?

 

[nobb]

Yes those pictures are of the same joint.

I did this little experiment on the other lower joint and once again, same scratches on the ball, same rough movement.

Interestingly, I also got to inspect some Raybestos upper ball joints. Once again, these were Sankei 555 branded, but the movement was smooth and not rough like the lower joints.

 

[dapslappy]

very persuasive

it appears that these Sankei 555 joints are also resold by Moog, Raybestos, Napa Premium Chassis, and Beck/Arnley.

I will let the following pictures speak for themselves:

FYI... just because the casting is a 555 doesn't mean the guts are from Sankei. I've been researching the hell out of this recently…

HERE is what I learned from talking to someone who owns a Toyota repair shop and orders parts...

What you want to AVOID is parts that were never OEM, that reverse engineered it and never held a official contract with Toyota.

Example: pretty much anything made by MOOG (which is NAPA's cheap (translate: lower quality) brand.

I am convinced.
nobb's photo + definitive statements re thorough research by chuck norris + BrianSD's credible info source make a simple and persuasive case. More substantive than the often posted "I bought so-and-so brand and have had no problems…"
I will be buying OEM Toyota, which also have the metal shield. Done and done.

 

[BrianSD_42]

BrianSD's credible info source make a simple and persuasive case.

I did find out that I misquoted the guy who told me about Napa and Moogs relationship. Napa does not own Moog. However Moognis still considered by many as lower quality than Napa and some Napa stores will resell the Moog brand - still labeled as Moog.

 

[Steve240]

Is there any potential that the grease channel was a design change to the part mid production?

I have a local site that I was going to purchase lbj's off of that are stated as sankie but someone made a very interesting point of the casings just being reuses and some other crap installed. It's a shame toyota service parts are marked up so high.


To the points above regarding suppliers changes mid model, that is very very rare. Automotive contracts to suppliers are based on the model of the vehicles, commonly 5 years. It is extremely rare for an automotive company to change suppliers mid production. If they do change it is due to significant quality concerns. Dual suppliers is also very rare but not unheard of if the vehicle is built in multiple continents.

 

[Srabai]

I just threw on new MOOG LBJs and outer tie rod ends a few weeks ago. I'll post some pictures if they fail in the near future. They were very tight from what I remember.

 

[BrianSD_42]

Just thought I would drop this x-post link here:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/154371-lbj-failure-my-turn.html

Another MOOG LBJ failure just reported 11/03/13 on T4R. This one had only 8,000 miles on it since replacement.

Luckily no-one was killed.

FYI

 

[RS Dude]

I am starting to think that many of these non-oem LBJ failures may be due to counterfeit parts. This is a big problem for the auto industry. Some manufacturers, like Mercedes, are using holograms on their packaging to certify authenticity. Low tech parts like brake pads, clutch disks, etc. are most common counterfeit parts.

 

[nobb]

I wouldnt go as far as to call these aftermarket parts counterfeit. But the fact of the matter is that Toyota has engineered their front IFS systems in these trucks poorly with little tolerance for error.

When an aftermarket manufacturer reverse engineers a part, they don't have all the design parameters and specs that an OEM would have. So the result is they take a copy of the OEM casting and try to mimic the internals without understanding the actual operating requirements that the original engineers designed for. The likely result is a substandard part. There are many parts of a vehicle in which using a substandard part does not affect safety or normal operation, in which it would be fine to save money and use an aftermarket part. Unfortunately, the lower ball joints are not one of such parts.

 

[Nelsonmd]

I wouldnt go as far as to call these aftermarket parts counterfeit. But the fact of the matter is that Toyota has engineered their front IFS systems in these trucks poorly with little tolerance for error.

When an aftermarket manufacturer reverse engineers a part, they don't have all the design parameters and specs that an OEM would have. So the result is they take a copy of the OEM casting and try to mimic the internals without understanding the actual operating requirements that the original engineers designed for. The likely result is a substandard part. There are many parts of a vehicle in which using a substandard part does not affect safety or normal operation, in which it would be fine to save money and use an aftermarket part. Unfortunately, the lower ball joints are not one of such parts.

Yeah, Toyota dropped the ball the LBJ design by making it in tension, though to be fair, that is a pretty common LBJ design, I think it just is not sufficient for use on a truck. If you notice, the 4th gen 4runner corrected this and the LBJ is in compression, not tension. I discussed this in another LBJ thread a while back and showed pics if anyone want to see what I mean.

It's not even so much that the aftermarket companies don't have actual operating requirements, it's that they have to save money on things like what steel alloy they use, machining finishes, tolerances, things like that in order to be able to sell them for cheaper. the LBJ design might be OK for 90k miles on OEM components, but when you use a lesser steel alloy, they may not be able to withstand even the standard operating on the joint.

In all honesty, alot of times aftermarket is ok, I mean I used autozone special ITRE's, but the PBJ is special, and I wouldn't skimp on that one. Keep in mind also that with OEM parts the OEM carries liability for it, so you may be more covered in case of a failure then if you use aftermarket.

 

[nobb]

I posted this in another thread but I'll just repost my comment here as well. A similar lower ball joint design may be found in other vehicles as well, but the key difference is how the load is supported. In our vehicles, the ball joint not only is under tension, but it also has the responsibility of supporting the entire front end weight of the vehicle under these tensile forces. Other vehicle's lower ball joints may have a similar tension design geometry, but the key difference is that the joint is not supporting the entire front end weight of the vehicle. When a ball joint has to support the entire weight of the vehicle, then the only proper design is a compression type geometry.

While owner maintenance is crucial, IMO, Toyota is to blame for this one. There are several other vehicles from other manufacturers that also have this design flaw like the Jeep Liberty. Toyota should offer a recall for ALL vehicles with this failed design because IMO...this is a lawsuit waiting to happen. But they wont because this design affects so many of their older (and best selling) trucks and would be too costly. This includes: 3rd gen 4Runner, 1st gen Tacoma, early model Sequoia/Tundra, and Land Cruiser Prado J90 series.

Most IFS systems have dual ball joints, upper and lower. But what makes our lower ball joint design flawed is the fact that they are in tension, which is a non fail safe design. The proper design from an engineering perspective is to load the ball joints such that they are in compression. Most newer vehicles, including newer Toyota trucks, use this fail safe, ball joint in compression type design. The difference between these two designs is that in a fail-safe compression type geometry, wear on the ball and socket may cause play, but the natural compression forces pushes the ball in the socket and prevents the entire wheel from tearing apart. The ball would have to be extremely worn for the wheel to be at risk of coming apart dangerously. In comparison, with a tension type design, wear on the ball and socket causes the ball to naturally pull away from the socket, thereby tearing the wheel apart. Even small amount of wear makes this design risky.

I suspect Toyota made a half assed design decision by copying the IFS geometry from the first generation Toyota trucks. You'll notice that the ball joint arrangement is very similar. BUT, you don't see the wheels falling off these older trucks because they use a torsion bar suspension in which the load from the torsion bar rests on the upper control arm, then through the upper ball joint (in compression), and finally to the wheel hub. The lower ball joints in the older trucks merely act to keep the wheel hub assembly in place and have little load bearing responsibility. With our 3rd gen 4Runner suspension design, the strut is connected to the lower control arm. That means the load of the vehicle is carried from the spring, to the lower control arm, through the ball joint (in tension), and finally to the wheel hub. In this design, the lower ball joint not only has to keep the wheel hub in place, but it also has to support the load of the vehicle through tensile force. THIS IS A POOR DESIGN. You basically have the thread of the ball joint and a ball stud that is maybe 1/2" in diameter, supporting the ENTIRE FRONT END of the vehicle under tension.

You may notice other vehicles having a similar ball joint design in which the lower control arm hangs below the wheel hub with a ball joint in between. But usually, the coil spring/strut is connected directly to the wheel hub and not to the lower control arm. This may be a similar design, but it is acceptable and not as much of a concern since the lower ball joint does not bear weight.

The key here is how the load is supported. If the load is supported directly by the wheel hub, then it does not really matter how the designer arranges the ball joints. However, if the load is supported by the control arm (upper or lower), then the ball joint has the extra responsibility of being load bearing, in which case, the proper engineering choice is to have them under compression loading.

 

[I_bRAD]

I just replaced a set of "555" casting ball joints with one year and under 15k kms on them. They were toast.

Looks like it was worth the extra for the toyota ones in the end! ON a side note, the factory Toyota outer tie rod ends were half the price of the aftermarket "premium" parts!