Best speculation of a 2023 6th generation I have seen

I'm disappointed it's only available with part time 4WD. As far as I know, every other vehicle in this class has AWD. There are even Wranglers with AWD. The technology Toyota is using is way out of date.
 
downshift said:
I'm disappointed it's only available with part time 4WD. As far as I know, every other vehicle in this class has AWD. There are even Wranglers with AWD. The technology Toyota is using is way out of date.
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Umm... there are distinct benefits for 4WD over AWD, particularly among the off-roading segment.

With 4WD, you're looking at advantages in gearing (transfer case), traction (locking diffs), and reliability (most AWD CV's are quite weak). In addition, AWD generally creates a parasitic load that lowers MPG vs. 2WD action.

Yes, the Wrangler added a full-time 4WD option with their wrangler. However, they generally did it due to axel torque limitations on their V8 and 4XE.

--

I will note the Rav4 as a wonderful crossover offering with AWD if that's what you're looking for.
 
living in the mountains, AWD is often preferred over part time due to snow conditions and having LSD on the front wheels..
 
ResEng68 said:
Umm... there are distinct benefits for 4WD over AWD, particularly among the off-roading segment.

With 4WD, you're looking at advantages in gearing (transfer case), traction (locking diffs), and reliability (most AWD CV's are quite weak). In addition, AWD generally creates a parasitic load that lowers MPG vs. 2WD action.

Yes, the Wrangler added a full-time 4WD option with their wrangler. However, they generally did it due to axel torque limitations on their V8 and 4XE.

--

I will note the Rav4 as a wonderful crossover offering with AWD if that's what you're looking for.
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I hear you, I know where you are coming from.

But the Sequoia is more of a "take the family on a ski trip" or "take the boy scouts camping on a well graded dirt road" type vehicle than it is a rock crawler. It would be better off with a center differential.

It could have 2H, 4H unlocked, 4H locked, and 4L modes as well. The Torsen limited slip diff in the 4Runner Limited model would be a good choice.

What I would like to see is the TRD Off Road model with this diff as well. It's plenty reliable and can handle any load the Limited can throw at it. It would be perfect. It would keep the locking rear as well as the MTS, Atrac and crawl control. For most of us, unlocked mode is more appropriate most of the time. You can lock it in those rare occasions when it's needed.

Regarding the Rav4, it's a nice crossover for sure, but you can't sleep in the back! The 4Runner Limited would be better, but it comes with a bunch of stuff I don't want, like 20" wheels, leather seats, a sunroof, third row seating (that's an option but most come with it), stuff like that.
 
balong48 said:
Looks like there's less room behind the third row, no tow hooks, and it lost the rear roll down window. Dammit Sweers... He's yet to get his paws on the 4Runner fully, I'm worried what his redesign of it will be.
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Third row seats can move up or down for more/less cargo space. Not sure how the previous gen held up compared to the competition but this doesn't have as much cargo as a Tahoe. No tow hooks is a bummer. Really hope the aftermarket can come up with something or maybe they'll add it. Did the pervious gen have it?

No rear rolling window sucks.
 
RPDBluemoon said:
Third row seats can move up or down for more/less cargo space. Not sure how the previous gen held up compared to the competition but this doesn't have as much cargo as a Tahoe. No tow hooks is a bummer. Really hope the aftermarket can come up with something or maybe they'll add it. Did the pervious gen have it?

No rear rolling window sucks.
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Yeah the more I've read it seems like it might be a toss-up between rear cargo space. Not sure if you get the same legroom in the third row with the same amount of cargo space. We will have to wait until reviewers get their hands on it a bit more or can look at a manual.

Previous generation was less than I expected too.

The towhooks are still a mystery, but my guess is it's due to the large gap between the frame and the front bumper and then the air dam getting in the way. I do hope aftermarket comes up with something. The LX600 has tow hooks so it is possible for the GA-F platform to have them.

Turns out they also removed AWD from the Sequoia too.

Here's hoping we still get AWD and a roll down rear window on the new 4Runner.

I've been eying a Tundra for years and the lack of tow hooks and no auto 4WD or AWD on this generation has made me reconsider (plus I'm not sure it can fit in my garage :biggrin1:). I then saw the Sequoia and thought oh maybe the Sequoia can replace my 4Runner but again, no AWD, no tow hooks, and now no rear roll down window. I have no idea what I'll do if the 4Runner doesn't have AWD or a rear roll down window. It's nice not having to worry about flipping between 2WD and 4WD.
 
balong48 said:
Yeah the more I've read it seems like it might be a toss-up between rear cargo space. Not sure if you get the same legroom in the third row with the same amount of cargo space. We will have to wait until reviewers get their hands on it a bit more or can look at a manual.

Previous generation was less than I expected too.

The towhooks are still a mystery, but my guess is it's due to the large gap between the frame and the front bumper and then the air dam getting in the way. I do hope aftermarket comes up with something. The LX600 has tow hooks so it is possible for the GA-F platform to have them.

Turns out they also removed AWD from the Sequoia too.

Here's hoping we still get AWD and a roll down rear window on the new 4Runner.

I've been eying a Tundra for years and the lack of tow hooks and no auto 4WD or AWD on this generation has made me reconsider (plus I'm not sure it can fit in my garage :biggrin1:). I then saw the Sequoia and thought oh maybe the Sequoia can replace my 4Runner but again, no AWD, no tow hooks, and now no rear roll down window. I have no idea what I'll do if the 4Runner doesn't have AWD or a rear roll down window. It's nice not having to worry about flipping between 2WD and 4WD.
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It might actually have AWD (e.g. center differential) even though the press release says "part time 4WD." Here's a picture I grabbed from www.toyota.com in the 2022 Sequoia section. All 4x4 trims (even the TRD trims) have the Torsen center diff. Since they have a 2WD mode, it is indeed accurately described as part time 4WD. I also found an online manual for the 2022 Sequoia. The page referencing this switch says only use 4H when the tires can slide, which is indicative of a locked transfer case. On the other hand, there is a center diff lock switch, which contradicts the "only use when the tires can slide statement." We'll have to wait until there's more info about the 2023 to know for sure.

Here's hoping the 4Runner off road trim levels get this as well.
 

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I can't imagine a vehicle with the complex cooling and intake system, etc. that the new Tundra and Sequoia have being a 'hard core" off road vehicle, regardless of trans/T-Case/Diff set-up. Water crossings, especially deep ones with a lot of silt/mud seems like a bad recipe for the V6 twin turbo arrangement.
A turbo 4-cylinder with a lot less complex installation system would seem more appropriate to me, but what do I know?!
 
One thing I'm keeping in mind as I ponder the Sequoia and its implications for the next 4Runner: Toyota USA sold just over 8k Sequoias and 144k 4Runners in 2021. To put it in perspective, 15k 4Runners were sold in December alone, almost twice as many Sequoias that were sold all year.

Granted, Toyota's expectations for the new Sequoia are likely much higher than the run-rate from the last couple of years of Sequoia sales. But with lower volumes, there are going to be decisions made accordingly -- like sharing parts with the Tundra, feature availability (i.e. making something standard across the board so you don't need multiple versions of the same part), or nixing things like the roll down rear window.
 
downshift said:
It might actually have AWD (e.g. center differential) even though the press release says "part time 4WD." Here's a picture I grabbed from www.toyota.com in the 2022 Sequoia section. All 4x4 trims (even the TRD trims) have the Torsen center diff. Since they have a 2WD mode, it is indeed accurately described as part time 4WD. I also found an online manual for the 2022 Sequoia. The page referencing this switch says only use 4H when the tires can slide, which is indicative of a locked transfer case. On the other hand, there is a center diff lock switch, which contradicts the "only use when the tires can slide statement." We'll have to wait until there's more info about the 2023 to know for sure.

Here's hoping the 4Runner off road trim levels get this as well.
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The new one is a 2023 model year. So that's still the old one. I don't see any buttons in the images of the new one that show a center diff lock. But that doesn't mean there's not one somewhere. Or that it couldn't be somehow in the screen menus or even automatic in 4 lol.
 
Jetboy said:
The new one is a 2023 model year. So that's still the old one. I don't see any buttons in the images of the new one that show a center diff lock. But that doesn't mean there's not one somewhere. Or that it couldn't be somehow in the screen menus or even automatic in 4 lol.
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Correct, that information came from the old one.

The press release for the new one says it is part time 4WD. I usually associate that term with what we have in the 5th gen: a transfer case that's either 2H or 4H/L locked. I associate the term full time 4WD with something like the Limited, which is either 4H or 4L, with a center diff that you can lock.

However, the old one, with 2H, 4H and 4L would be correctly be called part time 4WD, as you can use it in 2H. It has a center differential that you can lock.

It's possible that the new one has the same system. I scoured the images for a diff lock button myself. I can't find one either, but I can't see all the buttons clearly, and like you said, it could be there somewhere.
 
Carmaker1 said:
As much as I respect his effort, he is getting very carried away and needs to not become so speculative. 2023 is not correct and that has already been stated. It was delayed and it is clear he is going off of outdated information.



A lot of his speculation is much better than the rest (ie other vloggers/journalists), but it still leans on being clickbait to a degree. Anyone with key information, is not hopping in front of a camera or exposing themselves. By going so public as a professional engineer, a lot of people are not passing on info to him I imagine.

As I said before, it is MY 2024 at earliest. It will be built in Mexico at TMMGT and launch in the spring of 2024. No sooner at all.



That is not accurate at all, being that the delay of Land Cruiser and Tundra, set back every body on frame redesign by over 1 year and 4Runner and Prado are aligned to the degree, it fell even further behind than the rest.

Prado enters production before the 4Runner, in being manufactured in Japan. 4Runner will follow in early 2024, in being built at another plant in North America.



It won't. At best, it will be revealed. Nothing for MY 2023 and I stand by that, because the new information was credible for me, the deeper I looked.



Of course AN updated it LOL. Be careful not to always trust their reporting, even if Crain Communications are the most credible journalists in the industry. Things are always subject to change unfortunately and Automotive News have equally made a lot of false predictions over the years or muddle their information on purpose, to be in between.



Yep, this is at least correct. No longer being redesigned for MY 2024. Only way that will happen is if an about face, happens at the eleventh and Tahara production is retained. Going forward, it is TMMGT and that does not come online until January 2024 at earliest for 4Runner.

Why? New Tacoma needs to be launched first at TMMGT, in September 2023. Can't have two all-new models, enter production at the same time. Hilux has always been a different vehicle from 120-Series/150-Series and rides on IMV frame, a more heavy duty and downmarket architecture for developing and underdeveloped regions. The Tacoma is essentially a 4Runner/Prado pickup, while Hilux sits below it.

Other than sharing maybe the GR V6 once, Hilux is a totally different truck and they might be unified on TNGA-F starting in 2023, when Hilux is redesigned as well.

As for the whole Toyota USA timeline (omitting a few models) through 2024.

Copied from another post of mine:


Unfortunately, I often keep seeing a lot of unfair comparisons on the 2022 Tundra to other trucks out there, which imply Toyota outright copied their competition and find it to be very lazy thinking. It is mostly Tacoma and 4Runner they borrowed from.

Time wise, Toyota on these lead TNGA-F vehicles, had very high ;lead times, which allegedly required final design work to be completed 3 years ahead of intended launch. This has become their modus operandi, to ensure quality.

This vehicle, developed under 780B (early pseudo-code 954A) for half a decade now, was set for August 2020 start of production at TMMTX, outside of San Antonio for 2021 model year. Final styling of this truck from what I learned, rounded up toward the end of 2017.

About the same time, 2021 Ford F-150 final design was photographed and approved on November 17, 2017 at 4:07 PM in Dearborn, MI (have concrete proof of mine).

Beat the new Tundra to market with a half-ton twin-turbo hybrid, launching in December 2020. Took us 37 months from final design to showroom at the end of 2020. For Toyota, they had a similar timeline planned and fell behind EXTREMELY.

Sometime during 2019, after the 780B program's 2018 design freeze (designer's point of no return), all TNGA-F vehicles were subject to delays in a domino effect. Meaning the 2021 Land Cruiser became a 2022 model, 2021 Tundra redesign became a 2022 model. 2022 Sequoia became a 2022.5 (called 2023MY), 2022 4Runner became a 2023 model**, and 2023 Tacoma became a 2024MY.

Problem, is Toyota had already designed the truck and signed off the body well before that point. The styling has not been changed much at all, since at least being dialed in almost 4 years ago. Remember, the idea was for this to be in showrooms 15 months earlier than the end result due to multiple delays. Ditto for several others in development. The next 4Runner WILL NOT BE A 2023 MODEL ANYMORE! It has been delayed 16-18 months.

Now, I am going to list a trajectory of dates and etc, because I am rather pissed off that a lot of news media, websites, forum reporters, and YouTube clowns, have not picked up on certain insight and provided info on WHEN to expect all these redesigns. I have honestly been talking about TNGA-F since 2016 and no one else made any mention of it until 2019-2020. News seems to travel slowly unfortunately, being that Toyota finally confirmed it in May 2021. Might address Lexus at another date.

Top down from largest to smallest.

2022 MY (USA/CAN only)

2022 Sequoia
Phased out by February 2022.Ordering has now closed, short MY in anticipation of MY2023 redesign. Now in dealers.
2022 Tundra
Fully redesigned on all-new TNGA-F architecture.
Developed under 780B and co-engineered between Toyota Technical Center Ann Arbor MI and Toyota Global HQ Aichi Japan..
Launch date January 2022 for V35A-FTS Version
TT Hybrid Spring 2022
2022 Land Cruiser
300-Series will not be offered stateside in Toyota stores
Nameplate replacement under indefinite review since at least 2019
2022 Sienna
Carryover, in dealers October 2021
2022 Mirai
Carryover, in dealers October 2021
2022 Avalon
Carryover, in dealers this month. LAST MY, EOP in 2022
2022 Highlander
Minor changes, in dealers November 2021
2022 4Runner
Moderate changes, in dealers next week
2022 Tacoma
Moderate changes, in dealers by October 1, 2021
Some are in Transit from TMMGT MX
Plant Changeover from Texas TMMTX to TMMGT Guanajuato
2022 Camry
Carryover, in dealers this month
2022 Venza
Carryover, in dealers February 2022
2022 RAV4
MMC, in dealers January 2022
2022 RAV4 Prime
MMC, in dealers February 2022
2022 C-HR
TBA in dealers February 2022
2022 Prius
Already In dealers
Last MY
2022 Corolla Cross
All new compact crossover I hinted at 2 years ago
In dealers October 2021 (as stated 2 years ago)
2022 Corolla Hatchback
Carryover, now in dealers
Last Pre-MMC year
2022 Corolla Sedan
Carryover, already in dealers
Last Pre-MMC year
2022 GR86
Moderate redesign, in dealers November 2021.
Heavily revised tophat, revised underpinnings, and new 2.4L Boxer.


First to Last

MY 2023:

2023 Sequoia
Redesigned on TNGA-F and developed under 660B Program.
All New Engines and more
Built in Texas at TMMTX factory outside of San Antonio
Arrives in dealers in February 2022
2023 Tundra
TBD, arrives in dealers September 2022
2023 Camry
Arrives in September 2022
2023 4Runner
Carryover, arrives in October 2022. LAST MY of N280 built in Tahara, JAPAN!
2023 Tacoma
Carryover, arrives in October 2022
Last MY of N300 Pickup launched in September 2015 and MMCed Fall 2019
2023 Corolla Hatch
MMC, with GR performance version
Arrives in dealers in October 2022
2023 Sienna
Minor changes, arrives in dealers in October 2022
2023 C-HR
TBD, arrives in dealers in October 2022
2023 Highlander
MMC, arrives in November 2022
2023 Corolla Sedan
TBD, arrives in November 2022
2023 RAV4 Prime
Belated MMC?, arrives in November 2022
2023 Venza
TBD/Minor changes, arrives in December 2022
2023 RAV4
Belated MMC?, arrives in December 2022
2023 Corolla Cross
Carryover, arrives in December 2022
2023 BZ4x
All new Toyota EV co-engineered with Subaru, launching Q4 2022.
2023 Mirai
TBD, arrives in February 2023
2023 Prius
All new?, arrives in February 2023
2023 GR86
Carryover, arrives Q4 2022

MY2024
​​

2024 Tacoma
All-new on TNGA-F, Launching Q4 2023/Q1 2024 (Job 1 Date varies)
Will update with more later
2024 Grand Highlander
Model Addition, Proj. Job 1 is June 2023 at TMMI and is being developed under 200D code. Lexus version is 220D, Proj. Job 1 of September 2023.
2024 1/2 Camry
Considered Major Model Change, utilizing a modified TNGA-K basis
Being developed under 380D solely at Toyota Technical Center Ann Arbor
Expect evolutionary changes.
March 2024 Job 1; Spring 2024 Launch
2024 1/2 4Runner​​​​​​​
All-new redesigned 4Runner, on TNGA-F
In development since 2017 and delayed until spring 2024 from October 2022 launch. Proj. January 2024 Job 1, for March 2024 launch.
Will add 4Runner production to TMMGT in Mexico.
Will utilize turbo-4 and new THS.
​​​​​​​
2024 Tundra
2024 Sequoia
2024.5 Land Cruiser
2024 Corolla Cross
2024 Corolla Hatch
2024 Corolla Sedan
2024 Mirai
2024 Prius
2024 BZ4x
2024 Sienna
2024 Venza
2024 GR86


All of these dates above are subject to change during this pandemic and chip shortage, affecting factory output and delivery chains. I will update it when necessary.

KEY:

All new model or new addition, major model change on existing basis, Midcycle Model Change, Minor Changes or carryover.



Please give me a few hours, the quoted will be edited in a few hours.
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Quoting from September. Colors didn't copy but it's on page 3 of this thread.
 
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balong48 said:
Carmaker1 on this forum has said this for months now
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Except Carmaker1 posted this in December, after the post you quoted and the most recent post.

My takeaway: no one here really knows (and those who do aren’t talking — and shouldn’t. NDAs aren’t something to mess around with if it means having a job or not.).

Carmaker1 said:
I have stopped posting generally on forums going forward, but only do so now to correct myself.

New claims are coming out that the 4Runner will once again be redesigned for 2023 model year next year, as known from February 2020 to June 2021. Although I am skeptical of these claims, the sources of this recent information are not sketchy enough to be ignored. They seem just as credible.

My bigger question is, why any of my previous information has been misleading? I have seen 2024 in some ways, so it's conflicting information.

I can only wait and see, as I don't like asking too many questions to other professionals, not within my social circle or beholden to their own NDAs as well.

Secondly, Toyota have not made any announcements regarding TMMGT production for 4Runner, despite some charts listing it there for January 2024 start of production.

Sounds like Tahara will be producing this vehicle still, because TMMTX in Texas has not been announced as a production site either.

There are no spy shots of this alleged 2023 model, but it doesn't mean anything, as that can be manipulated for marketing purposes.

2024 Tacoma mules are running about, for both marketing and general testing purposes. (NOT PROTOTYPES)

Tundra program mules, first appeared on camera in January 2019, but no prototypes until December 2020. Generally it is ideal not to expose production styling test vehicles until 1 year out from market.

By now, you would expect to hearing and seeing something more tangible than just random guesses.

Not sure what's happening, stay tuned. Whatever the 2023 4Runner is, that's due for sale in October 2022 per scheduling. Just doesn't make sense for it to be a redesign.
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Carmaker1 has definitely seemed the most believable as far as info goes. David from AP started off with some decent info, but it’s like he got addicted to YouTube views and just started pumping out speculation/render videos with nothing really new to add.
 
tokyo rebuilt said:
Carmaker1 has definitely seemed the most believable as far as info goes. David from AP started off with some decent info, but it’s like he got addicted to YouTube views and just started pumping out speculation/render videos with nothing really new to add.
Click to expand...

David seems pretty knowledgeable. I wonder what line of work he’s in?

[I’m being facetious of course]
 
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