Best speculation of a 2023 6th generation I have seen

[gomiami]

I don't think the majority of GX buyers have ever looked under the hood to know there's a V8 in there. If the turbo'd or hybridized 4-cyclinder feels peppy and increases MPG, they will sell even better than the current generation.

I don't know. I went to three Lexus dealerships when I was considering the GX and all three sales dudes pitched the V8 engine and the legendary Lexus relaibility as the primary selling points. It seemed to be a rehearsed part of the soft sell.

Now, if I were a soccer mom would they have used the same tactic? Beats me.

 

[nimby]

Thanks [MENTION=166416]Carmaker1[/MENTION] for the update and all the insights!

I do have a question for you.....

Do you think the 6th gen will come with the same Hybrid Max that is offered in the Crown (and sounds like it will be offered in the Tacoma), or will it be something similar with unique features?

I remember you mentioning a while ago that there was a pivot in the 6th gen hybrid design and that was one of the reasons it was running late.

I can't remember if you said they were going to offer the option to run ICE mode, Hybrid mode, and Electric mode.........or perhaps that was an incorrect interpretation (on my part) of what you were saying.

 

[Carmaker1]

Still playing catchup here, addressing months of discourse. Forgive me if I haven't checked any new posts.

I personally have zero hopes that the 3.4TT will end up in the 4R or even the Tacoma. The current engine options are on par with Gladiator, Wrangler, and Bronco for the 4cyl and V6 options as they are offered (except the 2.7 Bronco). All around 275HP/300TQ, plus or minus a few. That's where I see them staying with what seems to be a 4cyl coming. If they did the TTV6, a TRD Pro in either the 4R or Taco would become exorbitantly more expensive than they already are compared to the other trims. Toyota isn't cool enough to do something like that and I don't see them having any desire to compete with the BRaptor or 392. Maybe I'll be wrong

Toyota tested the V35A-FTS in the next 4R and Tacoma, but it's not making production like I had hoped. This is actual inside information and not made up. My source on 6G 4R mentioned this, as he did concessions made on the Tundra 5-6 yrs ago to be less bespoke than planned. The Tundra would've been very expensive, if Mike Sweers had his way, but every bro out there would lineup to buy one. Japan HQ doesn't understand & Akio is NOT a truck guy in the least.

[MENTION=166416]Carmaker1[/MENTION] Any new info you can share with us?

I think y'all have done a fine job of your own research on here and piecing together the puzzle. You've become your own source on Toyota product development believe it or not, even if you might not have a direct line into Toyota. It's a watershed moment, when a forum becomes a source for such information and is being plagiarized by YouTubers. Welcome to that exclusive club.

Gecko, a registered member on here, heard about this vehicle out of a Toyota conference back in the fall of 2019. He generously passed this info onto me and shocked the hell out of me. I will admit I sat on the info out of respect for this gesture, but for my own reasons got impatient and leaked it to the media, without his permission and left the forum we posted on together, out over somewhat partisan reasons (Ford vs Toyota/Lexus).

I went through a period of insecurity, regarding being a Ford employee taking too much interest in a competitor's products, to the point of promoting them at the expense of my own brand and gradually tried to divorce myself from being too attached to these non-Ford forums. Also had to remove myself from things Ford as well, due to NDA concerns.

Anyway, I digress. Gecko is your guy on how this info came into the public sphere back in February 2020, but thank dumbass media for taking me out of context and muddling the message he passed onto me. What shocks me, is how this is coming to market 4 years after he shared it with me.

Australian and AllCarNews media back in 2020, corrupted the infostream and inaccurately assigned this information to the 300-Series category, neglecting to remember USA news does NOT always concern their own market, where they have Hilux instead of Tacoma, Fortuner instead of 4R and Prado as well. The LC300 was not coming as a Toyota to the USA.

I learned a lot from Gecko and from excitement had discussed this 5-seater Land Cruiser, for a very longtime back in 2019-20, before losing interest in 2021, as it became less clear if Toyota was still interested in it.

When I learned in September 2021 about the 2024 GX, which was revealed in secret to the national dealer body on February 10/11, 2021, color me shocked that it matched what he had shared about this future US Land Cruiser. As we 2021 drew on and 2022 became closer, my initial 2020 report on what Gecko told me in 2019 began to resurface on its own, independent of my involvement.

I was cynical and cautiously observing any new developments, but when I saw the BEV presentation and that blue mockup, it was a strong hint Toyota had a larger vehicle above that coming to market possibly, but questioned if it would be redundant against the GX 550.

I had first heard from an avid Land Cruiser enthusiast out of Qatar, the GCC dealer body gets advance information that Toyota USA and Toyota Canada do not get, in terms of body on frame product plans at Toyota. He had mentioned in the mid-2010s, Toyota was studying a replacement for the 70-Series. I had expected it much sooner, but as my own experience grew in this industry reaching the 2020s, I finally realized it wasn't fiction he had passed onto me and that such a vehicle might be in the Advanced Design department and not yet a production program.

Somewhere around 2020, this vehicle became a production vehicle program design for MY 2024. As awful as the COVID-19 was, it unfortunately coincided with a lot of OEMs internal deadlines on major vehicle programs.

So, I'll credit Gecko with bringing this into the fray in 2019 and myself for unfortunately betraying his trust and making it public without his permission, to clue in the rest of the world to Toyota's plans. Shocking how they didn't abandon this like the LC-F and LS-F, as well as Lexus GS. That's where some of my cynicism and backing away from this 2019 rumor came from, until it resurfaced.

Looks like the 5th gen ends production on August 31, 2024.

View attachment 400842

AND 6th gen program code is 930D with production scheduled to start on September 2, 2024 in JAPAN. Given Toyota's Fleet site says MY23 orders are accepted until May 2023, I'm guessing MY 2024 will be a carry over and MY 2025 will be the 6th gen.

View attachment 400843

Really excellent work here. No one is taking advantage of such resources like you have done. This matches the automotive forecasting I tend to have my own access to on many products across the industry, but I have learned as I have gotten more experience, it is predictive with a strong element of truth. Its weakness? Changing dates might not be kept up to date. According to a source with access to Toyota's active internal timeline, some of these do not lineup nor do the product codes. 930B and 930D are program codes indeed, but anything with -2 at the end is speculative, but the dates have some accuracy to them.

Such information was used to provide early insight on Job 1 dates for the 2019 RAV4, 2020 Highlander, 2018 Camry, and some other models years back. It was extremely close to reality, many years out. These sources have a good handle on some of this stuff, from internal sources giving them estimates. Unfortunately these things can be moved forward or pushed back.

I wouldn't abandon, but treat it as semi-reliable estimate on Job 1 dates and program codes. The next GX isn't 837X, I think it's 930D or similar. The Grand Highlander (200D) and TX (220D) are correct, being that I first reported on them quite awhile ago in 2020-21 with the same information. You've done an excellent job of making them public.

The 380D Camry is supposed to be March 2024 IIRC.

Where did you find this? There was something posted in this thread months ago showing the 930D was starting production in Mexico in Jan of 2025 I believe.

I think that was January 2024? It definitely changed to July 2024 around May or June, based on conservations with my 6G insider.

This is from an Auto vehicle forecast spreadsheet similar to the one I posted a bit ago showing 920B (new Tacoma) starting in August 2023. The one the Tacoma was in was their North American production sheet and 930D was in their Asia Pacific sheet.

I posted a link a while back from Team Quality Services with 610L(2) (610L is existing 4Runner, Toyota often puts (2) next to the program for refresh/placeholder in this case maybe) showing Jan 2024, was there another doc posted since that I may have missed? I’ve also since heard that at one point Tacoma and 4Runner were talked about together, then that talk stopped. So I wonder if they toyed upon building them both in Mexico and then stuck with Japan?

My 4Runner source says it will definitely be built in TMMGT, starting in July 2024, but I am very confused and I don't want to contradict him nor cast doubt on his information disrespectfully. Tahara could supplement production or maybe this forecast sheet is playing the guessing game. Something like what you are posting is how I found out in 2016-17, that Lexus NX production would move to Cambridge, ON (TMMC). Toyota's 2019 press release proved that right.

That's a great find. Between the two spreadsheets, we pretty much know what's coming in terms of new models and redesigns:

Probably all '24 model years:
Grand Highlander - SOP 5/23
Tacoma - SOP 8/23
bZ5X - SOP 9/23

Probably all '25 model years:
Camry - SOP 2/24
Corolla - SOP 7/24
4Runner - SOP 9/24
RAV4 - SOP 10/24

Some of these dates are not correct, but again have a strong element of truth to them. 6G 4Rr is actually 7/24 for 9/24 introduction. Tacoma shifted from 8/23 to 12/2023 SOP around Q3 2021. Due to delivery lead times, add 6-10 weeks for customer deliveries.

That’s the way I originally took it too; now that I’ve discovered 930D on the Asia Pacific sheet and 610L(2)/930D/4Runner is not mentioned on the North American sheet whereas 920B is, I’m wondering if that Team Quality Services page hasn’t been updated in a bit. Toyota may have wanted and/or originally planned to build the Tacoma and 4Runner side by side, but then changed their mind and stuck to Japan. I wonder if it was a production capacity based decision.

Carmaker1, who seems to be the most accurate, I think last said MX? However, in his most recent post (July 17, 2022) he said the 4R was 26 mos out. That exactly aligns with the Sept 2024 SOP date. In his last post he also said it’s been increasingly risky for him to say his info here, but that he’s learned a ton about Toyotas lineup through 2030. So we shall see, hopefully he can log on and hint at if this new discovery is correct.

Hehe, I vaguely stated that on purpose, because I have seen both July and September 2024 SOP, but the former comes directly from my insider working on the vehicle, meaning a July 2024 SOP date equals showroom arrival in September 2024.

I found it risky to be saying my info, for 2-3 reasons. Some senior folks on Lexus Enthusiast are not too pleased with me for both reasonable and unfair reasons, so I got a bit uncomfortable with any mistakes I might make, showing up there (ie GX vs TX teaser). 2, if my insider stumbles upon my commentary, I could be cutoff from further info and risk his privacy. 3, commenting too much on Toyota just doesn't look good for someone at a competitor.

6th gen with be available fall of 2024 as a 2025

Land Cruiser will be coming out later next summer but not as a luxury SUV, but a "Jeep" like vehicle to battle the Jeep and Bronco segment.

You heard it here forst

Excellent work, thanks for sharing this and helping shed light on what I had since abandoned discussion on. The return of the Land Cruiser, which I first reported on in 2019 (Lexus Enthusiast) and in early 2020 (globally).

It is crazy what Gecko told me in 2019, came to light as he mentioned.

the more i think about it, there's no way the 4Runner gets the 3.5 twin turbo hybrid. That will go to the GX if it makes it into this chasis at all. More than likely its reserved for the larger vehicles like the TLC and Tundra.

And there's no way they're going to have a different TLC in the US than everywhere else in the world. The TLC 300 is only 2 years old at this point and they aren't going to bring the 70 here.

I think this is true unfortunately. The Tacoma and 4Rr mules were tested with V35A-FTS, per Mike Sweers request. It has been clear, he has lost the battle and Toyota will cap ICE offerings with the Hybrid Max for the time being.

Correct.

This is why the most reliable info out there (from people like Carmaker1) is that the 6th gen will be getting the 2.4 single turbo from the Lexus NX.

I am not sure about that, at least for the Tacoma. Maybe the 4Rr will have that engine, but Tacoma won't apparently outside of the TRD Pro with Hybrid Max.

Interesting speculation, do you have a shread of info you can share as to why your LC claim is valid?

It's credible and actually very vintage insight, from none other than our own Gecko in 2019. I had a ghostwritten report made on this right before the pandemic in 2020 and shockingly enough, it is now making the rounds as a production vehicle as we near 2023.

If the Land Cruiser is to go head-to-head with the Jeep and Bronco...then what is the purpose of the 6th gen 4Runner?

The FJ Cruiser and 4Rr coexisted, but almost didn't as well due to perceived redundancy. GX and FJC almost ousted 4Rr, whereas FJ Cruiser died, and 4Runner kept on going instead.

I am not sure what Toyota is doing here, but does this explain the 2025MY delay? According to Gecko over the years and some others, the 4Rr is evolutionary, while GX sure as hell isn't. What does this mean for the Prado, when I keep seeing renderings like this so late in the game. Perhaps they are extremely off the mark and this new Land Cruiser is the next gen Prado instead?

My girlfriend works for Toyota and was in Vegas for the dealer meeting. 4Runner will have a hybrid option by spring of 2026

I've heard from my insider it comes to market by MY 2025, so does she actually mean a Prime version instead? All regular Hybrid versions are coming to market in near parallel to gas versions. Both you and my source, are somewhat confusing me from time to time, where he mentioned a much later date for the Tacoma Hybrids for MY 2026, then another source debunked that and corrected me, stating it would arrive in MY 2024 as planned. 4R Hybrid shows a Job 1 of July 2024, so that doesn't make sense from that body, stating by Spring 2026. Other than that, very dead accurate. He's working on the 4R hybrid.

It will be a 4cyl hybrid.



The Highlander is the competitor to the Explorer. Not the 4Runner.
Again, there is zero chance that Toyota has a Land Cruiser that is substantially different in the US than it is ROW. There's already a brand new 300 and the long-running 70, which will never come to the US.

Don't get tunnel vision like I did early on, just as the rest did. The Land Cruiser nameplate can mean different things, in different regions. In USA, FJ40 gave way to FJ60 and evolved into 200-Series by the end. That ship has now sailed and as Toyota said in 1996 at LX 450 launch, if the 1996 Land Cruiser as it stood back then was introduced in 1996, it would've automatically been a Lexus from the get go and not a Toyota of any sort.

It took them 25 years to honor that statement and drop the Toyota badged version from the US market, which they had since already done 2 years after that comment, for Canada.

With the 50-Series, Toyota tried to subtly take on the Wagoneer market with a family sized vehicle against the 40-Series. After observing the Range Rover in the 1970s and seeing 4-door aftermarket conversions, Toyota opted to beat them to market with a discount copycat in the 60-Series. Somehow, it was becoming high riding equivalent of a Cressida by the mid-late 1980s and with 80-Series now underway and knowledge of Daimler-Benz developing an upmarket Gelandewagen for the early 1990s, Toyota invested in a Range Rover fighter.

Upon hitting the market in 1990, Toyota gradually began drawing in elites to the nameplate with the 80-Series, who wanted a more dependable and more ergonomic Range Rover from Japan. All Japanese OEMs during the Bubble Economy of the 80s, tried to invest and take a stab at this market, Isuzu with the luxury-focused 1992 Trooper, Mitsubishi the same with the 1992 Montero SR.

In the end, only one stood tall above the rest and with a new 4.5L I6 in late 1992 (MY 1993). Upgrading of trim levels to include leather seating (MY 1993) and huge price increases year after year, the Land Cruiser nameplate became more a country club staple and celebrity namedropped toy. Not to mention, also right at home in the executive parking of office parks and outside of the offices of those with the title "Dr.". As well as the private school dropoffs, outside of North Americas largest metros.

Toyota threatened by Clinton administration tariffs, championed by insecure U.S. automakers, luckily had a rebadged version of the facelifted 80-Series underway. Plus, the next generation of the 80-Series in progress since 1991 and already signed off internally. This included a Lexus version, so a precursor to that sufficed immediately.

The LX 450 in Toyota's eyes, was the only version of the fullsize LC basis that should've been offered from the beginning. LC should've been limited to dedicated offroaders in N Amer. & not Range Rover segment, in their eyes. That belongs to Lexus, but Lexus didn't exist earlier enough for that to be the case.

The death of that lineage (60/80/100/200) for Toyota USA showrooms has been desired, but Toyoda likely acted too late & invested resources in his advanced CALTY team once again, to create product statements for a renewed philosophy on that, like he did from SC to LC.

Problem is, that is a very long protracted process, not afforded to most prod. vehicle programs. They do this only with "problem" products, seen at risk of demise. Such as the 3G Avalon, 2G SC, 1G Tundra, and J200 as the Land Cruiser offering. The replacement products of each, were borne out of CALTY assignments, that took a very long time to execute before being handed over to production engineering teams.

It doesn't. Just additional information that she brought back

Exactly, you've helped give this more credibility, as I lost interest in discussing this vehicle when it went cold on my end. Now, I can see it's not just the GX, but this as well.

There's a YouTuber/Toyota salesman in Nashville that posted a video last month and then deleted it a couple of days later. He said the LandCruiser is coming back to the US in late 2023 as a '24 model year. He said this was one of the reasons the 4Runner is now delayed until 2025.

If you look up the LC300 in some countries it's being sold with the 4.0 engine, a 7 inch display and cloth seats.

This is accurate, the first most recent 4R delay was powertrain, the second one was just plainly mysterious and deliberate in a sense.

Since we are all grasping at straws with speculation, lets tie things together. I just noticed in balong48's post about the FJ Cruiser production dates, 1/23/2006 thru 4/29/2023 (see Attachment 400842 above). So after a long run they are finally ending FJ Cruiser production. Now remember, the FJ Cruiser is derived from the 4th gen 4Runner platform.

IF, and a big IF, Toyota brings the Land Cruiser (LC) back to the US, which, if they did, it now makes sense that they ended US availability of the LC in 2021. However, it may only be the LC nameplate they resurrect in the US, so follow along on a possible plan.

You take the new 6th Gen 4Runner design, throw in a touch of J70 and Prado, and you "Derive" a "New" US (& world?) model Land Cruiser J400 from it, which is more of a follow-on to the FJ Cruiser for the US market (and possibly world markets?).

This new LC J400 gets produced at the Hamura, Japan plant with its freed up production capacity (from the canceled FJ Cruiser production).

So I give you, the MY24 Land Cruiser J400, with a removable top, designed to be cost competitive with the Jeep and Bronco.


(Note to David at Automotive Press: If you use my scoop in your next video, it would be nice for you to at least credit me, instead of always saying "I'm hearing this and that".)

(Note to Toyota: I live 30 minutes from your Plano Headquarters, I would be glad to come over for a preview.)

Haha, I'm sure David does browse this forum, which means I need to mince my words in some cases. I wouldn't call it J400 though. What is Toyota doing with the Prado, that is the big question? Does it diverge from the GX 550 this time around? GX 550h is a more powerful vehicle than the new RX 500h, so what does that represent then? GX 550 is what exactly? V35A-FTS? GX 550h is the powerful application of Hybrid Max T24? Or a detuned, hybridized V35A-FTS?

How would Toyota price a Land Cruiser J400 here in the states?

According to Gecko in 2019, this new Land Cruiser was to be much cheaper than the outgoing 200.

Hi Carmaker1, we sure would appreciate it if you could join us with your insight to the potential of the introduction of a low cost model LC to compete with the Jeep and Bronco, my aptly named LC J400, as I detailed in my post above.

I would attribute this to Gecko, who keyed me into this insight back in 2019. I initially was flabbergasted back then, growing cynical over time because of other insight which did NOT pan out from both him and others, but this is shocking and has truth to it. It's not made up & unfortunately too many cynics out there, keep assigning this return to the 300. That is just not the case.

The Land Cruiser is a sequoia-sized + vehicle. Are we suggesting they will shrink it to Bronco/Jeep dimensions? It can't be a direct competitor to the Jeep/Bronco if it is Expedition/Wagoneer sized.

(yes, I understand there are many vehicles that Toyota uses the LC name on. I'm referring to the LC always sold here in the US.)

Yes, that's somewhat the target. The 5-seater, serious offroader you heard about in 2020, a month before the pandemic hit. I said MY 2024 back then, even if my news report didn't. I deduced that on my own, although the information itself came Gecko's own insights in 2019.

This is not a 300-Series.

Bingo, you make it a FJ70 / FJ Cruiser / Prado / Jeep Wrangler / Bronco sized vehicle, Toyota has the full range of products to pull it off.

With the FJ Cruiser sales dwindling in 2014, instead of reintroducing the FJ Cruiser name you introduce a legendary LC based name, J400 is the next logical numerical progression of the historical LC model numbers. (J90 is already used for the Prado)

Yes, but a J400 it is not in my opinion. I need a very good idea of what that next generation Prado actually is. The biggest thing throwing me off, is the renderings for the J180 Prado.

It is one of two things:

The Prado remains true to form, as does the 4R. While the GX diverges & this new Land Cruiser is an FJ replacement in the form of a modernized J76.

Or the Prado 180 is a revolutionary redesign once again parallel to the GX, while 4R remains true to form.

The renderings for the Prado are too evolutionary, but I don't know if they are now reflective of the production & late stage uninformed BSing from dumb media. I don't recall anyone having a lock on the new RX ever at any time. It took a teaser from the 2021 presentation, for it to finally slip out. No artists got it right one bit.

Toyota has become very good at keeping everything very close to vest lately. There are zero renderings of the 4R, from an informed capacity. Ditto for the next Camry, but I could be wrong about that. No one truly knew what the LX 600 looked like, until the very very end. Only the LC 300 was accurately depicted, once in late 2019 by Japanese sources with inside access.

If the Prado renderings are inaccurate and the actual vehicle looks totally different, in the vein of the GX 550, that is your American LC right there and clears up all confusion.

Toyota is definitely coming to market with a new LC, likely related to the GX 550. However, I am not sure that is necessarily the next Prado as well.

Carmaker1 predicted a new Toyota Land Cruiser would be arriving to the states for MY2024. This sort of matches what you are predicting.



In addition, we know the int'l Prado is going to be totally redesigned soon. And as we also know, the GX is based on the Prado and thus is also getting a redesign.

According to Carmaker1 the GX is supposed to become more rugged so that it can compete better against the Defender and G-class.

My speculation is the rumored MY2024 Land Cruiser coming to the US is just a Toyota-branded GX or USDM Prado. It will be a less luxurious version of the upcoming GX, however, it will still keep the more powerful powertrain and greater off-road improvements. Perhaps the V35 engine, triple lockers, etc.

This makes sense as the 4Runner can continue to be sold in its class. Then the new Land Cruiser can compete against the more capable Bronco and Wrangler.

Thanks, as I also did mention even way back about a hardcore 5-seater Land Cruiser & this matches what I said years ago, when it was still in early development. That of course came from Gecko mostly, not me. I only gave it an expected launch date.

Thank you for Carmaker1's quote, I vaguely remembered hearing about a lower cost LC and you just found Carmaker1's post from over a year ago with the info.

Now for the bad news for us 4Runner / Wrangler / Bronco buyers, clearly if the new MY24 GX 550 is aimed at the G550 and Defender 110 market then it is not aimed at the Wrangler or Bronco market. It is typical for the 4Runner / Wrangler / Bronco buyers to cross shop these three models, but the average buyer does not cross shop the G550 or Defender 110.

Okay, let's carry on with the 6th gen 4Runner speculation.

The lower cost LC came from Motor1 in February 2020, because the inside source was me for their content on that 2020 story & an adjacent Ford report, which also came true as well. I ghostwrote most of that article, save for some bad context from the author. The GX 550 info seems to line up with that, which I also reported on.

No problem.

The GX550 would be aiming at the G550 & Defender market. The speculative Land Cruiser would be a Bronco and Wrangler competitor.

This is good and bad news. The good news, Toyota understands the discontinuation of the US market FJ left a hole in their lineup that could compete against the Bronco/Wrangler. The bad news, this decreases the chance that the 6th gen 4Runner will get a detuned V35 and it will most likely continue to feature only a rear-locker and rely on ATRAC.

I don't think 4R nor Tacoma will have V35A. They will have Hybrid Max, while Tacoma keeps the 3.5L GR engine & 2.7L I4 for a bit longer. 2TR-FE also continues for 2 more model years.

What you have stated, perfectly describes what's in the cards. Toyota version tackles some more rugged market examples, while Lexus GX 550 is a discount G-Wagen and direct Defender competitor.

That is great clarification, thank you, so perhaps the lineup looks like this:

Lexus GX550: G550 and Defender competitor

Toyota Land Cruiser J400: fixed/removable(?) top Wrangler and Bronco competitor.

Toyota 6th gen 4Runner: fixed top Wrangler and Bronco competitor.

Sounds about right, but just me speculating on that. The 4R will be evolutionary, but this new vehicle must be differentiated enough to not cannibalize 4R sales. The 4R I guess will probably emphasize the roadgoing-vehicle-that-can-go offroad quotient more, whereas the LC will be an offroader-that-can-be-commuted-with instead. I hate to speculate on a removable roof, but that is very key to this being viable in my opinion.

GX 550 is more of a LR D110 competitor more than anything, but the G-Wagen was an iconic example to allude to.

I would sell a kidney if we could have a troop carrier with a pop up camper top.

A Toyota branded GX550 would fit oddly next to the 4Runner if the new LC is priced to compete with the Jeep and Bronco.

Are you guys saying the Toyota branded GX550 would sell cheaper than the 6th gen 4R?

One cannot be certain, until more details come out. I personally feel this will be a pricier alternative to the Bronco & Wrangler, per nameplate. Price overlap will likely happen with various products. Toyota will have too many utilities in my opinion, but they understand their own business case for this than I do. Grand Highlander is coming, 4R is coming, & so is this apparently.

Highlander is redesigned for 2026 as well & the design work is just about wrapping on that vehicle over the coming months, which began last year. I am curious if GH/TX is second generation TNGA-K like the next Camry or is it the last of first generation TNGA-K, like the new RX? 2nd generation TNGA overall, debuted with the new Prius.

 

[balong48]

Welcome back [MENTION=166416]Carmaker1[/MENTION]! Glad to see you back and continuing to help us figure out what Toyota is doing over the next few years, especially with the 4Runner!

With those AVF sheets I figured those dates definitely weren’t concrete, then finding the weekly sheets confirmed they’re changing all the time. Like you said, wouldn’t be surprised if they were some estimates too.

After being posted all over forums by people like me, it appears they’ve plugged the leak.

Looking forward to continue seeing your posts (if ya hang around still)!

 

[gomiami]

@carmaker

I thought it was about you...I had read a while back that it was becoming increasingly risky (professionally) for you to share Toyota information on forums like this.

Has that "danger" passed? There's no reason for your to take a professional risk just to satisfy our curiosity.

Thanks.

 

[KimchiJae]

The messiah has returned. Good to hear from you again Carmaker1.

I would agree with you Toyota has been quite good about preventing render leaks. Both the Tacoma and Land Cruiser are expected to be announced next year yet we haven't a clue what they will ultimately look like. A large sticking point for me is the rear door design for this upcoming Land Cruiser. Will it be a barn door a la GX/Prado? Will it have rolling window like the 4Runner? Or will it be the return of the split tailgate since the J300 removed it?

 

[Blackwatch]

Interesting that Carmaker1 is still saying the 4Runner will be made in Mexico. This has always made the most sense to me.

 

[mscot]

Interesting that Carmaker1 is still saying the 4Runner will be made in Mexico. This has always made the most sense to me.

If they bring a Japan built Prado to the US, I can see it giving them an excuse to do the 4Runner in Mexico next to the Tacoma. But, he could have just been referring to the released date/my as the "element of truth" and not Mexico.


I'm trying to decipher what [MENTION=166416]Carmaker1[/MENTION] means by this one:
"I'm surprised Toyota is already underway with a TNGA-K unibody pickup, but not surprised since it was mentioned earlier. Please don't tell this is just like the Land Cruiser rumor in 2019 and it won't appear for 4 more years just the same. This should be coming for MY 2024-25 for Toyota's sake."

Is that to say you don't have insight into it but hope it would come out by 25my or that you have insight that it WILL come out as a 25my?

If Toyota made a Prime Maverick competitor that took all the best parts of the Ridgeline and the Maverick and combined them, I would put an order in right away.
Comfort of a Ridgeline, plenty of rear seat space for an adult, excellent configurations of the bed, with a the Prime 2.5... sign me up.

 

[Trob20]

I'm trying to decipher what [MENTION=166416]Carmaker1[/MENTION] means by this one:
"I'm surprised Toyota is already underway with a TNGA-K unibody pickup, but not surprised since it was mentioned earlier. Please don't tell this is just like the Land Cruiser rumor in 2019 and it won't appear for 4 more years just the same. This should be coming for MY 2024-25 for Toyota's sake."

Is that to say you don't have insight into it but hope it would come out by 25my or that you have insight that it WILL come out as a 25my?

If Toyota made a Prime Maverick competitor that took all the best parts of the Ridgeline and the Maverick and combined them, I would put an order in right away.
Comfort of a Ridgeline, plenty of rear seat space for an adult, excellent configurations of the bed, with a the Prime 2.5... sign me up.

Not sure if it's related, but Toyota did release a concept vehicle in Thailand called the IMV-O which is a small modular pickup. The truck looks less like a concept and more like a production vehicle. I wonder if this is a preview of what the US version of the truck could look like. I would believe the small pickup based on the TNGA-K would be a global product.

403

 

[balong48]

A source for me was working on the Tacoma program and when they initially got to Toyota they heard of 4Runner and Tacoma being talked about together. Whether or not that meant being made at the same factory, I don't know. They said word of the 4Runner kinda died out a bit and assumed it was because the 4Runner was currently being made in Japan - that's what made me start digging a bit more and lead to the AVF sheet discovery with the 4Runner saying Japan for 930D.

Those two things combined, the AVF spreadsheet and 4Runner and Tacoma no longer being talked about together, made me shift hard to saying it's staying in Japan.

However, if AVF is just guessing, and Carmaker1 is still hearing Mexico, there could be some truth to Mexico still? But he's also hinted the Team Quality Services link is outdated info.

To me logistically it'd make sense to make Tacoma and 4Runner at the same factory if they're sharing the same platform and powertrain.

Lastly, not trying to discount what Carmaker1 has been saying at all - just relaying how I came to my thoughts. Carmaker1 has been in the game for a while and has proven time and time again he is credible.

 

[mscot]

Not sure if it's related, but Toyota did release a concept vehicle in Thailand called the IMV-O which is a small modular pickup. The truck looks less like a concept and more like a production vehicle. I wonder if this is a preview of what the US version of the truck could look like. I would believe the small pickup based on the TNGA-K would be a global product.

403

That looks more like a commercial truck than a consumer. If that's what the Maverick competitor looks like then its a hard pass for me.

 

[Carmaker1]

Again still somewhat playing catchup, I am really sorry about the huge multi-quotes, but there's a lot of discourse I'd like to address from being absent a long time.

The most simple solution would be for Toyota to merge the 6th gen 4Runner and LC Prado (J180?) into one vehicle as they share the same purpose, functionality, and market base:

- One vehicle, with different names according to market, available in both 3-door and 5-door variants
- In North America, the 5-door variant would retain the name 4Runner while the 3-door version would become the LC Prado
- Outside of North America, both 3-door and 5-door variants would be known as the LC Prado

This would allow Toyota to:
- streamline design, platform, and components of the 4Runner and 5-door LC Prado
- preserve the upmarket appeal of the Lexus GX
- reintroduce a 3-door or short wheelbase version for off-roading in North America, competing with the short wheelbase Wranglers and Broncos
- bank on the 4Runner name recognition in North America, and on the Landcruiser Prado name recognition/heritage elsewhere for the 5-door variant
- bank on the Landcruiser Prado name recognition/heritage worldwide for the 3-door variant

Of course, this being the most simple and efficient solution pretty much guarantees that Toyota will do something else.

That might be sound and well explained, but this isn't what they seem to be doing. Someone from the top approved this and managed justify it as a sound business case. This not shocking, seeing as they tried to ditch N280 in favor of FJ Cruiser, Sequoia, Land Cruiser GX 460, Prado, Highlander, Venza (V6), and RAV4. They felt the 4Runner market was covered by the FJ and GX. That's why the Hilux Surf died after Gen 4, but N280 came only as Japan-built 4Runner. It was hastily slapped together.

I thought the Lexus GX550 was going to compete with those and there would be a less fancy GX550 with a Toyota symbol on it called something else like Land Cruiser J30 or J300. Just not sure where the 4Runner fits into this puzzle.

The production chassis code is not yet known at this time, but the program code is. I believe 930B is the 4Runner and 930D is the GX or something.

It's all speculation. But if the rumors are true, I could see the Toyota branded GX550 would be more along the lines of a Badlands Bronco with stock 33s, sway bar disconnect. Perhaps even feature something like a Sasquatch package with factory 35s and front locker.

As we know, the current GX460 features a more premium engine with the V8 compared to the V6 in the 4runner. The Lexus GX550 could feature a variant of the V35 TTV6 and the Toyota branded GX550 would also feature this. With possibly the hybrid version to compete against a Wrangler 392, Bronco Raptor.

The 4runner would remain in the same segment it competes in. With the 6th generation featuring a less premium hybridized inline-4 turbo, single rear locking differential, 32" tires.

The rumored Land Cruiser would be more expensive and more capable. Keeping in-line as Toyota's flagship off-road nameplate.

I'd like to caveat that this is again all speculation. But this is the only way Toyota's product line up would make sense to me in terms of product segmentation but also logistically with their other vehicles.

Well theorized. This story is getting way too much traction, to not be speculation. Enough people are repeating this in a fashion, for it not to be true. Usually if something is fiction, it only exists with YouTube vloggers. From Toyota personnel, to dealer personnel, and even myself mentioning this years ago, after Gecko unearthed it in 2019, tells its true. The GX 550 being similar enough to this, says more than enough.

The 4Runner is likely being moved around a bit, vis-a-vis being adjacent to the Fortuner sold abroad. According to my other insider, he claims Toyota feeels that Hilux and Fortuner are becoming too pricey for international markets and they're looking to replace them with newer entrants. Does a consolidation of the Hilux into Tacoma body and 4Runner meeting the Fortuner halfway, become a possibility to make room for this new Land Cruiser?

Did you know he's an engineer?

Sorry, couldn't resist.



I never thought I'd own a 4-cylinder (too loud, not enough power), but I really like the hybrid system in my Venza (2.5L 4-cylinder + electric motors). It's not the greatest sounding engine under full throttle, but the electric motors do a great job getting you up and running quickly and quietly.

I'd take a 4Runner with the 2.4T + electric motors like what's in the Crown Platinum. Imagine a much quicker off the line 4Runner that gets 25-27 MPG.

LOL,

Anyway, Hybrid Max will be in the Tacoma TRD Pro, but I don't know what it will be in the 4Runner at the moment and although I could find out, I try not to ask such questions if I know I'll publicize it anyway.

You are correct, The Toyota LC version would be priced in line with the Wrangler and Bronco, I read your first question to quickly.

KimchiJae explained it best, there is no reason the 4Runner cannot be sold along side the LC as they will attract different buyers.

Since both are definitely coming to market (as it stands currently), I'm sure they can make it work. The Edge and Explorer have been coexisting with the Bronco just fine, although it is somewhat apples to oranges. One thing is for certain, the 4Runner is NOT GA-K no matter how doomsday theories are out there. Highlander already serves that purpose.

What could Toyota "reasonable" add to the 2024 4Runner in it's last MY? The past 2 years they added a few treats. There must be one last trick up their sleeve with this old beast.

I am hoping there is a window where I can buy or order a 2024 and know what the main features and design of the 2025 (6th gen) is. It would be nice to have the last MY of this 5th gen.

Toyota would've done well to accommodate a more substantial update for 2020 or 2021, but that ship has sailed, since it takes 2-3 years to execute that from start of planning. You'll have until spring 2024 to order a new 4Runner and maybe until August 2024 to get existing stock. If the lots are dry around September 2024, when the redesign hits, then there's your answer.

Where did this idea of a Toyota branded GX550 come from?

Because Carmaker1's post only talks about Lexus branding. He doesn't mention anything about it being carried over to Toyota.....unless I missed something.

I've talked about both, in different capacities over the past 3 years. I knew nothing about this Lexus offroader until 2021, while I knew about the Land Cruiser in 2019. I just shifted gears and assumed that the Toyota became Lexus-only. Both will get very similar products, which is honestly better.

I believe someone posted above a few days ago that their girlfriend works for Toyota and heard when she was at meetings in Vegas that the land cruiser was coming back. I think she said it was going to be targeting the Bronco and Jeep.

A YouTuber who is a Toyota dealer posted a video saying the LC was coming back next fall to the US as a 2024 model but I believe Toyota made him take the video down. He also stated the 4runner was coming out in 2025.

The next generation GX begins production in October 2023, while this does around the same time. That intel is very credible, as it lines up with a lot of others commenting on similar stuff as well. Prado production also begins October 2023, not November 2023 as that chart lists.

I'm having trouble buying it.

I just don't see Toyota bringing a different LC to the states than ROW - which is the 300. Maybe Toyota strips the lux out of the 300 so they can sell it a bit cheaper but that saves, what? $10k?
I don't see Toyota releasing a brand new offroad SUV in a year.

Toyota bestows the nameplate "Land Cruiser" on different models globally. Once upon a time, the Land Cruiser Colorado was what they called the 90-Series in UK. That changed to Land Cruiser eventually with 150 and then the 200-Series was dropped for 2016. I know this, as my parents had a facelift 4.5D 200 at our residence in Edgbaston, UK outside of Birmingham.

We kept it a long time, because the 150 is too insubstantial for a people carrier. Did get an X7 to replace it though, but it's still there as backup. Toyota UK ditched the 200 it was done with its lifecycle, while Toyota USA lost the nameplate once 200 concluded and are now getting it back in another bodystyle.

Americans have gotten different types of vehicles under this nameplate and I doubt it matters that it won't be some large luxury SUV.

To compete with the Wrangler and the Bronco, Toyota wouldn't bring back the Landcruiser 300, but could offer the next generation (J180?) Landcruiser Prado.

I think so, but one needs to confirm what that Prado actually is. Both that and the GX start production in October 2023, if my source has the current info. From recent renderings, the next Prado looks nothing like this vehicle. However, if they are wrong then it might be that vehicle. Or an entirely separate, facsimile of the J76 on GA-F, reskinned and rebadged as GX 550, with a fixed roof.

Here's the entire NGA-F lineup from the Asia Pacific sheet.
View attachment 401113

Good information, as it's somewhat accurate, but a number of things on there are either out of date and missing specific program codes.

The Landcruiser Prado is the Lexus GX and to some extent the 4Runner is as well.
GX is almost exactly the same but with different body panels. The 4Runner has used the same 120/150 platform as the Prado but is more utilitarian (for lack of a better word) and doesn't use same engines/suspension and obvi has different body panels.

So you're trying to say that Toyota is going to release two midsize SUVs on the same 180 platform PLUS a Lexus on the 180 platform.
Does that sound like Toyota to you?

What might have been the case up until now, might not be the case going forward. There have been renderings for the next Prado out of Japan, but none for the next GX. The GX has been more described by the US populace affiliated with Lexus, unlike the Prado which is just Japanese and Australian speculation.

Well informed Lexus commentators (not Kirk, sorry man) on the Lexus forum, have a good idea of what is coming too and are very excited, debunking the silly theory suggested to me recently, that the Toyota BEV presentation ICE SUV was the GX. It's the TX instead.

If the Prado and 4Runner are evolutionary, then the Land Cruiser and GX 550, are simply all-new on their own unique GA-F applications and not Prado derived.

In post #399, I speculated that it would make sense for Toyota to bring the 3-door version of the upcoming LC Prado to compete with short wheelbase Wranglers and Broncos.

I still believe that merging the 4Runner and 5-door LC Prado into one vehicle makes sense, but Balong48's chart indicates that Toyota will keep both models.

That's not going to happen, as the 4Runner appears to be revolutionary per internal reports. It just keeps falling behind, while the GX changes course and Prado is the real mystery, officially that is. If the Prado is nothing more than the same old 120/150 design on GA-F, then we know GX and LC are their own unique proposition.

So are we thinking that 611X-2 is the Toyota branded Land Cruiser that will make it to the states and compete with Bronco?

Or is this something that will be sold internationally only?

It is very likely that the Prado remains evolutionary and this is some additional model, a facsimile of the J76 designed to compete with the Bronco and Wrangler as being suggested. This is newly gaining traction, but this was known years ago in some capacity as I mentioned.

I wonder if this "Land Cruiser" that the gf heard about is actually the compact cruiser EV that Toyota was saying would be here in 24/25.

It is not that vehicle.

Tacoma is not made in the Asia Pacific region so it is not on that sheet. It is listed on the North American production sheet.
View attachment 401119

Additional clarification: These sheets are where the vehicles are being made, not necessarily where they will be sold.

Yep, well stated.

Toyota has always produced a 3-door LC Prado alongside the 5-door version.

The 3-door Prado (J150) is still sold today in some countries as evidence from this video.

It remains to be seen whether the next generation's 3-door Prado (J180) variant will be sold in North America or even reintroduced in Australia (the 3-door J150 left that market in 2013).

As for Toyota introducing a more rugged vehicle to compete with Wranglers and Broncos, the rumor has been floating for a while. More than the LC Prado, some people actually believed that the Lexus GX would fill that role.

Over the Lexus forum and in his post #44 in this thread, our friend Carmaker1 provided some info on the upcoming Lexus GX, and the first mention of a more rugged Lexus GX (to my knowledge).

Here's the key quote from one of his post from September 2021:


For reference, Balong48's Asia production sheet indicates that the GX will start production early in October 2023, which is probably too tight of a timeline to get the GX in dealerships before the end of 2023.

And all this got me thinking about the J180 LC Prado 3-door, its possible introduction in North America, or even a more closely related 4Runner/LC Prado/Lexus GX 5-door versions than what Toyota currently offers.

Again, I must stress that I'm just speculating and odds are that Toyota will do something else.

I lost confidence in the Land Cruiser rumor in 2021, as I felt it had gone cold with no new developments, other than (in my perspection) insecure media dudes just parroting what I said years earlier to keep up hope or drive clicks.

I don't know about this being specifically the next Prado, if that remains evolutionary. The October 2023 Job 1 date is correct for both, as well as Prado Hybrid, but December 2023 is not a tight schedule at all and standard fare to be frank. December is a popular launch date for the GX, going back to the first generation in 2002.

Carmaker1 posted in this thread September of 2021 predicting a US bound Land Cruiser would be sold for MY2024.5

He's also revealed the the Lexus GX is getting a new design ethos were it's supposed to be more hardcore and compete better against the G-class and Defender.

Outside of Carmaker1, there have been growing rumors of a Land Cruiser that is meant to better compete against the Bronco and Wrangler. How valid these are -- I don't know.

My personal prediction is Land Cruiser nameplate that is returning to the US is not actually the J300 series but is actually the future redesigned Prado. It may be coincidence but as we know the GX is a Prado. The fact that the GX is expected to become more off-road oriented - G-class/Defender competitor and this rumored Land Cruiser Bronco/Wrangler fighter AND their October/November 2023 SOP as shown in [MENTION=110786]balong48[/MENTION]'s build sheet matches up with Carmaker1's MY2024 US Land Cruiser release seems too uncanny. Not saying it'll become true but just interesting to see how it all lines up.




It wouldn't be a brand new SUV. The idea is it's just a USDM Prado. A cheaper more utilitarian GX that would sit above the 4Runner and could compete with the 400HP, front and rear locked, 33" and 35" tires Broncos and Wranglers.

It may sound like overlapping product categories but with TNGA-F, we have seen these products become even more closely related than ever before. It wouldn't cost Toyota much engineering dollars to get it certified for US regulations.

I think Toyota knows they were too early to the market with the FJ Cruiser and want back into that segment. A smaller Land Cruiser would be a perfect way to capture that market again.

Well stated, as this fits more than anything. Only concession I have, is what the Prado actually even is. I have an idea what the 4Runner is, what GX is, but not Prado outside of Japanese speculation. It looks like the same old thing, with newer styling. If that is just misreporting and later renderings start to match descriptions of the GX and this new US LC, then we'll know the truth then. I don't believe Toyota will sell and market a 3-door Land Cruiser in the US, but I could be wrong.

To me it does not make sense to only bring a smaller 3 door to market. Only about 10% to 20% of Jeeps and Broncos are 3 door, that would be leaving 80% of the market money on the table.

Likewise, to say Lexas will compete against the Land Rover and the Jeep/Bronco makes no sense, those are two different price point markets. IF there is a new rugged model that is intended to compete against the Jeep/Bronco, it would be wearing a Toyota nameplate.

Call it FJ Cruiser 2.0 with a new name.

Yes, a Toyota nameplate for the volume product against Bronco and Wrangler. Lexus against the Defender 110 and as a discount alternative to G-Wagen. An LS 400 ($35,000) didn't cost as much as a 420 SEL ($62,500), yet it targeted that and even matched the loftier 560 SEL top dog ($73,800).

It still competed even somewhat at $42k with the more ostentatious next generation 500 SEL ($93,500) by 1992 and still the $77,900 SWB 400 SE.

A GX 550 ($65k/70k+) against the G550 ($140k), is not that farfetched on the high end. The Defender 110 SE I6 ($70k) against 2024 GX 550, is more like the 1990 Jaguar XJ6 at $39,700 vs the 1990 Lexus LS 400 at $35,000. Is it viable against the Defender? Who knows.

It's not a seamless comparison, but it shows how it can compare. Fitting the 2024 Highlander ($38kish) and 2025 4Runner ($41kish) into that is tricky, but I guess we'll see how that goes.

I agree that bringing just a 3-door vehicle to compete with Wranglers and Broncos doesn't make financial sense. There's a clear need for a 5-door version as well, as 4Runner sales prove each year.

My issue is that the 4Runner and 5-door LC Prado are way too similar in capabilities and market base in their current respective generations. Maybe the 6th generation 4Runner and J180 Prado will differ more than what we're used to.

If they really differ from the 4Runner, both 3 and 5-door versions of the upcoming Prado can take on Wranglers and Broncos.

If they don't differ that much, then the 4Runner and 5-door Prado risk cannibalizing each other's sales.

What would be the best path for Toyota to differentiate the 4Runner and 5-door Prado in terms of purpose, capabilities, market, price?

The US is definitely not getting a value badged GX 460 in the vein of the current Prado. I imagine the 4Runner will be a capable, but the more roadgoing GA-F choice vehicle. A body on frame Grand Cherokee SWB. While the Land Cruiser, will be more focused on off-the-beaten path with emotional styling.

I think of RAV4 vs Venza vs NX relationship within the Toyota umbrella, with this Land Cruiser vs 4Runner vs GX. Land Cruiser 300 is the equivalent of the Highlander in this arrangement, with Sequoia above it in size and Grand Highlander above Highlander. Only difference is, TX is not based on the Highlander directly whereas as LX is based on the 300-Series.

Similar to the market proposition when the FJ Cruiser was introduced in 2007, different style, etc.

Give it optional full lockers front and rear and a laundry list of off-road features, functions and options.

Give it the option to be fixed or removable roof, and a full range of other options for the 90% that will never take it off-road. The price can overlap with the 4Runner since they serve different niches.

I think of the RAV4/Venza/NX relationship, when Land Cruiser/4Runner/GX come to mind.

I think the problem with the Tundra was that it wasn't designed to compete with the trucks that are out today. If I remember right from what I've read it was mostly designed and ready by 2019 but delays with the NGA-F platform kept pushing it back. So really it was designed to compete with trucks back in 2019, not what we see today. I'm guessing that has to do with it being outdated upon arrival. As for MPGs, my guess is the phasing out of the V8 was mostly for smog purposes, just like the Highlander losing the V6.

Also if I remember right, Toyota North America has to fight Toyota Corporate to keep building the Tundra, Tacoma, 4Runner, and Sequoia because corporate doesn't really like the existence of them.

Yep, very well stated. The Tundra design freeze was a very long time ago and before when the final design was set, much even longer ago. They knew what this truck already looked like back in 2018 and the Sequoia was in near parallel to that apparently, at least according to interviews.

Toyota handicapped some aspirations for the XK70, against Mike Sweers wishes and his Ann Arbor team, plus maybe that of sales and marketing folks in Plano (ironically here until tonight).

In 2014, Akio Toyoda wanted to kill off the Sequoia after MY 2015. The 4Runner and GX had no future by 2017. FJ Cruiser was the nameplate that ultimately died within that bunch. TX would've been more contrived, in the vein of the outgoing RX-L with different skin.

Starting in March 2014, you American buyers saved both 4Runner and GX from extinction. All the naysayers criticizing the 2014 changes which debuted in April 2013 at NYIAS and GX separately (now with Spindle Grille) in August 2013, clearly don't know the market at all.

They have been super successful and highly regarded, even 8-9 years later with little to no changes. Toyota was beyond cynical in 2011, especially out of Japan over the recall crisis and March 2011 natural disasters. Contrarians who never seem to know what they're talking about, as the styling changes were needed to make the truck more appealing to younger buyers.

The future Tacoma (989A) wasn't even a full redesign, the Tundra was even more half-assed than that for MY 2014, and they just invested in updating the midsizers in 4R (610L) and GX (837L) just one last time, since this was already happening for Prado (611L).

Oh agreed, I'm sure it'll change. Dates are changing all the time - I figured out a way to see the weekly updates in addition to the monthly master sheet.

This is something very useful on a surface level, as it's often as good as you're going to get outside of Toyota. Their own internal manufacturing timelines are rarely accessible and buried inside of their servers.

Well a Toyota executive has put to rest the speculation about the new Land Cruiser, looks like it is all but confirmed according to Motor Trend.

The Toyota Land Cruiser Will Likely Return to U.S.

Key paragraphs extracted:

However, our options may be expanding beyond Lexus once again in a few years time, according to Jack Hollis, executive vice president of sales for Toyota Motor North America.

"Hollis was asked if a storied nameplate like the Land Cruiser would ever make its return stateside, and the answer was promising: "Will we ever? I would say likely yes," Asked if it would be in the foreseeable future, he said we would have to wait for an answer on that one.

"Obviously Land Cruiser is such an important part of our heritage and has done such a great job. And I'll be looking at it, absolutely. Have I seen designs, thoughts, and hopes, yes. But nothing to announce. It's still a ways off," Hollis added.

So it's certainly not confirmed, but it's a much stronger answer than we were expecting. Then again, even last year's Land Cruiser departure announcement came with a wink, with Toyota encouraging "loyal enthusiasts and intrepid adventurers to stay tuned for future developments."

However, it sounds like we should be looking beyond the current J300 series Land Cruiser to whatever the next generation model may look like, which will almost certainly need to be electrified, either hybrid or full battery-electric. Toyota's EV plans are reportedly in flux with the automaker devoting more resources to expedite its EV offerings, though no specific models have been teased, and the existing EV concepts may no longer be on the cards. Still, Hollis' comment is a promising start to whatever's next, and it sounds like still they have some confident ideas for the next Land Cruiser, at the very least."

Well, the Land Cruiser nameplate has been mostly centered around the large 7-8 seater known as Amazon/V8 (aka 100/200) for many years now, but this news has nothing to do with the 300-Series. It's an indirect replacement for the 70-Series or facsimile of it, leaning on heritage instead of continuing the existing 120/150 lineage. That is if it's even based on the next Prado, which I can't say is known yet on my end. It's an either a unique product different from the next Prado or that vehicle in question, but either way in the vein of a modern 76-Series.

This is big news. All we've had so far was floaty rumors but actual acknowledgement from a Toyota VP helps cement these rumors.

It's curious that he mentions designs (plural). Suggesting he's seen multiple iterative and possible designs, some that we have not seen already. To me this suggests he's referring to the upcoming GX/Prado redesign although it could hint as a mild refresh of the J300.

In any case, I think I may call up my dealer to put down a deposit for this mysterious land cruiser. With the 6th gen 4Runner continually delayed, this Land Cruiser may hit dealer lots before it.

Yes, this has been rumored for years, coming private meetings and making its way into the public, after I first posted about it 3 years ago. CALTY must have been working on this vehicle back then, but not in a production development capacity. It likely migrated to production feasibility in 2020, because February 2021 was when these vehicles were probably first showcased as mockups at the 2021 dealer meeting for both Lexus and Toyota.

An exec will get to see CALTY concepts I imagine, depending on his clearance. They most definitely will have access to CALTY Ann Arbor production proposals as well.

Just forget about J300 for Toyota USA, that's Lexus' province now going forward. As I mentioned before, there would have NEVER been a 60-Series, 80-Series and beyond, if Lexus existed in 1970. The LX would've been that and the FJ40 remained its own product, evolving into 70-Series or giving way as it did to the 4Runner in 1984. The 4Runner was the replacement for the FJ40, as Toyota Motor Sales U.S. preferred the higher profit margin on 60-Series over bringing FJ70 to market.

I have photos of a federalized J70 from the mid-1980s, plus it was available brand new via grey market from 1984 to 1988 in the USA. After October 1988, it became illegal (until late 2009) and the redesigned 4Runner appeared in April 1989.

Every armchair expert on this board has said it's returning for 2024, nothing in this article indicates that is true.

I have heard about this vehicle on and off for over 3 years now. It's legit info, even if the business case makes little sense against 4Runner. But then again, do the Venza/RAV4/NX make sense either under the Highlander and RX, now Grand Highlander and TX?

Not sure what Toyoda is doing, as lot space will be so difficult to manage at some smaller Toyota dealers. I guess he wants to retire with a bang, like Iacocca tried to do in the 1990s via putting his hand into too many pots with Chrysler Corp.

 

[Carmaker1]

Hey everyone, I am still trying to address some past posts and some questions over the last several months. I really, really apologize for any typos and the long walls of text. I am color-coding my responses, to be easier to read. I am going to be in some meetings soon and then relocating later today back home, so I will have to pause soon. I'll respond hopefully sometime eventually today or tomorrow, to posts of yours over the last day or two. Sorry, if that's a bit rude.

 

[mscot]

I have heard about this vehicle on and off for over 3 years now. It's legit info, even if the business case makes little sense against 4Runner. But then again, do the Venza/RAV4/NX make sense either under the Highlander and RX, now Grand Highlander and TX?

Not sure what Toyoda is doing, as lot space will be so difficult to manage at some smaller Toyota dealers. I guess he wants to retire with a bang, like Iacocca tried to do in the 1990s via putting his hand into too many pots with Chrysler Corp.

I wasn't referring to you when I called people "armchair experts." I would have included myself in that.

It looks like all my guesses were way off mark! LOL

So are you thinking that Toyota has been secretly developing a new LC the last 3 or 4 years?

 

[Carmaker1]

Second to last remainder of my catching up.

David, from Automotive Press posted a pretty good video on this.

TOYOTA LAND CRUISER RETURNS TO NORTH AMERICA! - THE REAL REASON WHY 6th GEN 4RUNNER IS DELAYED? - YouTube

He thinks the redesigned Land Cruiser Prado will be the Land Cruiser that is rumoured to be brought to Canada and the US. Says it will fall in between the Sequoia and 4R in pricing with the detuned 3.44 tt from the SR Tundra.

I'm guessing $57,000 in the US and $69,500 in Canada. He's predicting we will see it arrive this time next year. We will get a decent look at it about 6 months earlier when it's released in Japan first.

This makes the most sense for a conservative minded Toyota IMO. I'm still a little concerned with the twin turbo set up. If I had to choose between a redesigned LC Prado at $70,000 Canadian vs the last model year 4.0 4R TRD Off-Road for $55,000 Canadian I would have a hard time.

Has anyone driven the Prado? Would the current gen Prado be worth the extra money over a 4R if it's coming with the 3.44 twin turbo?

I own a 6-speed manual 150-Series Prado turbodiesel in Africa and I love it. It is much better than the 4Runner in my opinion and I don't feel it's a fair comparison, because 4Runner sits below it adjacently, even if very few Prados have the 1GR-FE. I used to have an older Prado 150 with the 1GR-FE, mated to the RA61F manual as well. If Toyota had offered the RA61F on the 4Runner TRD Pro, I wouldn't own a Tacoma to be honest. I miss my V6 Prado in fact.

Anyway, the next Prado may or may not be that vehicle, because the latest renderings give a very different impression. More like the transition from 200 to 300, not what this Land Cruiser will be like. The Prado is being released in Q4 of 2023, not 6 months before anything else. The Prado has often come to market only a short time before the GX, almost every redesign.

This Land Cruiser should price in the mid-50s at base, going up to $70-75k. With GX starting at around +/- $70k and jumping up to $90k, against the Defender 110 I6, that tops out at $111k.

Oh and David is somewhat correct on future insights, FOR ONCE! He's intelligent, but sucks at future insights in general. This one, I give him. I'd wait to be sure that's actually the next Prado badged differently (like Harrier vs Venza) and not maybe another model entirely.

The Land Cruiser Prado is the Lexus GX. Do a google search and it won't take long to verify this. There are a number of people on t4r.org that own one.

Yes, they are currently, with only minor differentiation. But that might a different story for the 5th generation Prado and 3rd generation GX. With the next Prado, we have renderings out of Japan showing a vehicle not very different than the current 150. Outside of that, not much else. With GX, we have very descriptive information on the positioning and design, but no illustrations yet. This Land Cruiser leans more into the GX column and contradicts the renderings for the next Prado.

Either the renderings are misinformed BS, so late in the game or like the next 4Runner, the Prado 180 remains evolutionary and similar to 150. The GX splits off from the Prado and a Toyota version of that is the US Land Cruiser. The chassis code can easily become something that isn't J180, but another designation entirely. Such J190 or J170, while Prado remains J180. Heck is J210 even out of the question? The possibilities are endless. It's my own speculation.

What's not speculation? GX is a G-Wagen bargain alternative and a direct competitor to the Defender 110/130. Land Cruiser is coming to market, as a cheaper bare-bones version of that niche, direct or adjacent to the Bronco. Being that it's GA-F and like has IFS, I don't want to mention the Wrangler.

I feel that I have stronger confirmation from too many sources about the next Land Cruiser in USA and GX 550, than I do about the Prado, my weakest link in terms of information. No thanks to it being a foreign market product and stupid foreign speculation being too ambiguous.

I knew the GX and Prado were similar but they have different engines and thought it was primarily the frame and some parts they shared. I suppose with a complete redesign the current Prado isn't a good comparison. Hopefully it's released a year before the 6th gen 4R.

I believe between you and balong, you've determined that the Prado will be redesigned before the 4Runner, as will GX. Just hope, really hope and pray, that the GX and this Land Cruiser come to market on schedule and are not further delayed into MY 2025. We are just 12 months out from market release and maybe 6 months at latest from reveal hopefully.

My comment wasn't critical of you...more critical of the guy speculating on the 2024 Land Cruiser. It was click bait. There is no way Toyota pulls a General Motors and has the Prado in the US as both the Lexus GX and the new LC. By the way, the US price point you guessed at is the current price point of the base model GX.

I don't think we know if the Prado will come to market as a newer version of the current 150 or be in the vein of the Toyota version of the next GX, which is going to diverge from what it is currently in terms of market approach. The GX is going to be more expensive, closer to the LX. That $32k gap is going to narrow by maybe $13k now.

2025 4Runner is coming, as is this new Land Cruiser, that will price at highest levels of 4Runner into maybe the low $70s against base GX, that might reach the base LX, when fully loaded. Are people willing to pay $90k for a loaded TTV6 GX that is $20k cheaper than a loaded Defender 110 X I6?

I did not originate the Land Cruiser news, it was [MENTION=166416]Carmaker1[/MENTION] last year, you know, the guy with a good track record.

Motor Trend and a Toyota exec are not what I would call click bait. David of Automotive Press youtube channel, now that is clickbait.

If you don't want to read speculation, it maybe best to unsubscribe from the speculation thread.

Both [MENTION=114416]Gecko[/MENTION] and I in different capacities, made this information public some years ago. While Gecko respectfully took the route of honoring Toyota's right to privacy, I admit once again I leaked what he told me and asked others I do know about it. I got mixed answers on it, then learned about the GX as well.

Thanks again.

It's crazy how the one singular guy that has any credibility on this board is labeled an armchair expert and clickbait.

Carmaker1 has pretty accurately predicted the GR Corolla, the release date of the Tundra and Sequoia, the USDM Toyota Crown, and the introduction of the Grand Highlander (which was officially confirmed by Toyota 3 days ago). He also was the first to predict the delays of the 4Runner.

I'm pretty certain guys like David just read the forums like the rest of us and have no actual contacts within Toyota like Carmaker1 has.

I really appreciate this, thanks a great deal KimchiJae. I try my best, as do a few others part of this forum and other forums like Lexus Enthusiast, who due to their proximity to Lexus, have to honor confidence as one would with an NDA.

The kicker is, while I do have many contacts, I am dead certain that David has way more. He has shot himself in the foot by becoming an extremely visible vlogger and not going the off-screen route. If your a member of the industry and commit to doing something like this, you needed to be incognito. No ifs and buts. You choose otherwise, you'll only get the biggest of fanatics of yours (very few) with no qualms about leaking advance information, keeping you in the loop.

Everyone else is plainly not going to trust you and will BS you with fluff. If I went by my full legal name and had a vlog, the well of information would go dry overnight honestly. Only 1 millionth of other industry personnel versus 1 thousandth as it currently stands, would still share info with me.

That was the person I was calling click bait...David of Automotive Press.

I'm not sure where this misunderstanding came from but I try to be respectful to everyone. Rather than take offense to something that wasn't even intended, please ask for clarification first.

That would move the conversation forward much more effectively than suggesting someone leave the thread. This isn't an echo chamber. It's an open forum for everyone. Thanks.

Thanks, indeed. I had high hopes for David back in 2019 or 2020, until I realized things he was often missing and or copying indirectly from me or other informed personalities on forums. Easier to do that, if we are not posting our information on a very popular medium like YouTube, in order to avoid overexposure. David is very careful to not follow some key information, because he sees it as too transparent in some respects and has his own (unfounded) skepticism. He'll jump on it, often too late.

Kirk Kriefels is much more liberal with referencing anything Japanese related he comes across and I respect that, if it gets the message out there faster. What I don't like, is when due credit isn't given. I don't really watch Kirk's content anymore, but I don't hate him. Japanese brand product planning is much less known than American and European developments, that are much more public.

On the Ford front, I used to fill in the gaps, but too close to home for me and I'll leave it to others to be taking such risks going forward.

Friends,

When I quote one user, in this case blackwatch, and we have a dialogue back and forth, I am directing my comments specifically to that person and what he or she wrote, not to every person involved in every post in a 31-page thread.

If I make a general comment without any quotation, then feel free to carve me up if you disagree. A general statement IS to everyone and I'll take whatever you dish out.

We all dig the 4Runner which is why we are here. Let's try to get along...

I think we are all much better behaved in this thread/sub-forum than almost any other Toyota forum I've seen, outside of maybe Lexus Enthusiast. There's little to no hostility, which shows how so many of us exercise great restraint. My blood pressure boils at times on Tacomaworld and several other forums.

Oh no, I didn't take that as a critical remark. Lexus IS bringing out a TX model which is the Grand Highlander. There have been a few other Toyota /Lexus models that were copies of one another. The GX 550 is supposed to be more of an off road vehicle so I could see them dropping the Prado name and just calling it the LC, make it more of a Pro model/70 series look? Just the LC name would sell if it had a rough rugged look.
All that aside, if they went with the detuned SR Tundra 3.44 tt I would be concerned with it's longterm reliability.

Automotive press is clickbait but I think this last video makes sense. At least he didn't mention he's an engineer in this one I'm sure David from AP is on here taking notes.

While I am not sure if that is what the next Prado will be, this vehicle definitely is coming, having been mentioned years ago.

As for David peering around here... :lmao:

He really needs to make use of his connections, as he'd learn much more than anyone out there if he did. Me thinks he's alienated them, by having such a public persona.

Yeah, I could see Toyota slapping the LC name on something just to make a buck or two. The problem I see is, when Toyota offers a Lexus equivalent, the Lexus model is priced double-digit percentage points above its Toyota cousin to justify the Lexus brand prestige designation.

That's going to make the TX and the redesigned GX give people a sticker price coronary. For example, the LX pricing is asinine but they had to do it to keep the $$$ gap between it and the Sequoia.

There will be price overlap, with so many different vehicles being offered.

The product has to justify the price gap, because if it doesn't, Lexus needs to regroup and fix it. LX 600 draws a lot of criticism at its price. GX might start in the $70k range, while base Land Cruiser might overlap with mid-range/top trim 4Runners? TX will likely be priced where the GX was once I imagine, in the low $50s and reach $80k with TX 550h+. GX might top out at $85-90k

I envision this, speculating from the price structure on the RX 350, RX 350 F-Sport, and RX 500h F Sport Performance.

2024 TX 350 starts between $51,500 to $53,900 over outgoing RX 350L at $49,900. Undercutting outgoing 2023 GX at $57,575.

TX 500h, as a non-F Sport (unlike RX 500h), maybe starts at $60k.

As an F-Sport Performance only offering (a la RX 500h), it would start between $65,000 to $69,500. Seems outlandish, when the PHEV TX 550h+ would be the price ceiling. $80k might be the price ceiling for the nameplate, with TX 550h+ starting at $70-73k and going up to $80kish.

A Land Cruiser at around $55k, I guess makes sense if you keep the Lexus version GX 550, $15k more expensive starting high $60s/low $70s.

A loaded Land Cruiser at $70-75k seems manageable against a loaded GX at $90k.

Bear in mind that a loaded I6 Defender 110 costs $111,000. A loaded 130 is slightly over $120,000. Let's not talk about the V8 G550 and V8 Defender 110.

Back to the "this is not speculation" category, my son-in-law is a Toyota master technician, recently their general manager told them about the new Land Cruiser coming out. That it would be smaller that the existing Land Cruiser 300 but priced above the 4Runner.

Why is this important news? For over a year I've been asking him if he has heard anything about the new 6th gen 4Runner, but not a word. So the fact that he has now heard something about the new Land Cruiser first, may possibly, infer that it is coming out before the 6th gen 4Runner, which is inline with other rumors posted here.

Second, it is another corroborating piece of evidence that the new US Land Cruiser is real and may in-fact be coming to US dealers within the next year or so.

Always good to have as much confirmation as possible on this subject, thanks for sharing this.

Both 4Runner and this will come to market. I am not sure it is the Prado necessarily and these forecast charts don't always include new products coming into production, if not an existing product line or already announced in some fashion to trade publications.

If it's a derivative of the Prado then possibly, but I don't see any thing else besides the LC 300 and LC Prado. If Toyota is dual-naming a product, they list it in the same line - see Hilux Surf / 4Runner. The redesigned Prado is currently set to start production on November 6, 2023 and the redesigned Lexus GX is set to start production October 2, 2023 - both at Tahara.

View attachment 401504

Regarding TX/Grand Highlander, we can see the program codes are very similar and the current start dates are close as well - both at Princeton. However, with one being a Lexus line and the other being Toyota, they have separate line items.

View attachment 401505

View attachment 401506
Forgot to include the Land Cruiser 300 on the above screenshot.

The next Prado might not be this vehicle and it's definitely not a 300 as we can tell. The production dates have an element of truth, but are not fully accurate. They are good forecasts of what to expect, sometimes the real deal in terms of estimates. These as you know, are rarely accessible for good reasons to the general public.

When they dual name a product, is it only when it is identical and not close, close cousins like the TX/Grand Highlander or GX/Prado?

I'm a bit lost, as I'd say the Venza vs Harrier is a great example of what could happen, but I am not too certain it is specifically the next Prado.

It is good news that the Land Cruiser is re-entering the US market. I ask this because I don't know. What was Toyota's reasoning for pulling the LC in the first place just to re-introduce it three years later...other than to help their MPG numbers while it was being redesigned?

Good reasoning in terms of fleet average, but it's definitely more than that. No point having Michigan Technical Center federalize the 300, when just one will do under the Lexus. To be honest, that isn't it at all anyway. It's a new product under the same nameplate.

As far as I know, they were pretty much identical other than the driving side. I saw a couple of Hilux Surfs while in Saint Lucia this past June and went "Oh look a 4Runner!" when in reality it was a Hilux Surf. I don't think the Hilux Surf made it past the 4th Gen 4Runner though, so it's strange that even the existing 5th Gen production line says Hilux Surf/4Runner.

The Hilux Surf existed comfortably, until the Prado came into play in 1990 and got significantly upgraded in 1996 into J90 into a near-luxury product. Toyota tried to kill off the 4Runner and Hilux Surf in 1998, the American sales network revolted and we got N210 for 2003. Highlander and Sequoia, as well as GX 470 were thought to be sufficient.

Approaching N280, in 2005-06 they felt upcoming FJ and future Prado 150 were enough, future GX 460 was good enough for USA and no need for a Toyota 4R version against the new U251 Explorer (2005-10) and new WK GC (2004-10).

USA dealers apparently revolted over it again in 2006, but that didn't save the Hilux Surf this time, as Prado 150 and Fortuner were more than enough. HS was redundant. Toyota HQ cares about Prado, but until lately neglected the 4Runner in hating it somehow, while USA loved it. GX was an afterthought, until the market burst open and a business case was justified for Gen 3.

I agree and most dealers probably do too. They could have de-luxed the LC to offer a 70k version and given a range of options ending at 100k.
From what I have heard a lot of Lexus dealers were asking for a Lexus version of the Sequoia more than an LX. Don't recall where I heard that from.
All that said, I think Toyota just sees the 4Runner as a suitable alternative for an LC in the states. It can easily go 200k+ if taken care of, and the roads in the US are never far from gas/service and are relatively well maintained so an LC isn't really necessary.

Yes, they definitely wanted Escalade ESV competitor and a uniquely developed XK70 architecture independent of GA-F might've afforded them that per USA's wishes, but Sweers caved allegedly and consolidated XK70 into GA-F.

Kirk Kreifels has joined the conversation with his rendering, video and standard powertrain spreadsheet analysis.

It's a GOOD day for Toyota Land Cruiser fans in America... - YouTube

He can annoy me, but he really tries to not be off the mark too much. When he messes up, he's the most honest about it. Cannot say that for David, who has so much potential and needs to lean into his unique position as an engineer who is Japanese connected.

He basically summarized our discussion. LOL

LMAO, of course he did.:lmao:

I'm weary of news from a GM. I know technically they have a relationship with Toyota but I've grown to become distrusting of dealership employees -- even if they are GM status.

That being said... one random Redditor said dealers got a preview of the Land Cruiser back in September, re-iterating it would be a smaller bronco/wrangler fighter. Emphasis on random redditor.

Again, this is credible and the rare exception to the rule. As you know, I heard of this years ago, when it would've been in the advanced design stages. When they get this information from a national conference, it's rarely fiction. Just be careful as you are sometimes, such as when one lady last year berated me for disputing her claim there would a new 4Runner for 2023. That's about the only instance in which anyone from these dealer gatherings proved to be wrong.

As much as I can gather on their corporate front, these gatherings are a godsend to future info and every OEM knows, so they keep it very quiet on purpose and threaten attendees very strongly. Surprised that they have violated Toyota's confidence this time around, but are thankfully not discussing certain product lines and respecting secrecy on them.

 

[Blackwatch]

If they bring a Japan built Prado to the US, I can see it giving them an excuse to do the 4Runner in Mexico next to the Tacoma. But, he could have just been referring to the released date/my as the "element of truth" and not Mexico.

"My 4Runner source says it will definitely be built in TMMGT, starting in July 2024, but I am very confused and I don't want to contradict him nor cast doubt on his information disrespectfully. Tahara could supplement production or maybe this forecast sheet is playing the guessing game."

Hopefully it stays in Tahara but like you said if they bring a Japanese built Prado here that might excuse them moving the 4R to Guanajuato. I believe anyone hardcore enough to not buy a 4runner because it was built in Mexico would most likely fork out another $10,000 or whatever to have a Japanese built LC. So you really don't lose too many customers and the cost savings by building in Mexico should keep the price of the 4R fairly stable.

 

[mscot]

"My 4Runner source says it will definitely be built in TMMGT, starting in July 2024, but I am very confused and I don't want to contradict him nor cast doubt on his information disrespectfully. Tahara could supplement production or maybe this forecast sheet is playing the guessing game."

Hopefully it stays in Tahara but like you said if they bring a Japanese built Prado here that might excuse them moving the 4R to Guanajuato. I believe anyone hardcore enough to not buy a 4runner because it was built in Mexico would most likely fork out another $10,000 or whatever to have a Japanese built LC. So you really don't lose too many customers and the cost savings by building in Mexico should keep the price of the 4R fairly stable.

Based on Carmaker's recent posts it sounds like this is what the US will get:
Toy LC - completely new - offroad focus
Toy 4Runner - evolution but new frame architecture (along with a prado elsewhere) - more family/camper focus
Lex GX550 - completely new - high end offroad Land Cruiser competitor

So that would rule out my theory.

I'm really interested in the Mav/Ridgeline competitor

 

[Jetboy]

Not sure if you saw the previous page but TFL is saying their source in Toyota is saying its the next gen Prado that we are getting in hybrid only form. Toyota is hoping to sell 30,000 in the US. Price wise it will be more than a 4Runner or they will sell 300,000 if it's cheaper than a base model SR5. The US market is so starved for an affordable LC they will be hard to get IMO.

I did see that. But TFL has been wrong quite a few times on the 4Runner and Taco updates. So I'm not sure I trust their rumors.

I don't think there are many Americans who care about the LC nameplate. I'm a TLCA member, have owned a bunch of different LCs and still have one, etc. And even I don't care about the nameplate enough to buy one over a 4Runner.

I don't see much value in selling a Prado in the USA side by side with a 4Runner unless it's differentiated in a major way. So if it's not really a Prado - but some new vehicle that is different from a 4Runner/Prado in a big way - then it makes sense. The regular Prado is priced very slightly below the 4Runner in other markets where they are sold together, but they're basically equal.

The only way I can see it working as a more expensive version is if it's bigger, comes with an engine not offered in the 4R, or has something else unusual I'm not thinking of that you can't find on the 4R. I'm not sure what that is or what that means. LC300 running gear would be something compelling. But then isn't it just a LC300 re-skin at that point? But how would that fit as a GX that's the same thing as a LX?

It's possible that it'll be a new product that's neither Prado or 4Runner and is more off-road oriented than the 4Runner. But that just seems pretty odd as well. There's only so much mix and match you can do to fit something between a 110/111" wheel base 4Runner and a 112" wheel base LC300 and not be too close to the LX600 or too close to the 4Runner.

The big hole in the market is for something like a Jimny. Toyota could re-skin a Fortuner with a 4 door removeable top body to slot in below the 4Runner. But that certainly isn't what's being described. The other potentially missing model in the lineup is an HD 4Runner. That's basically just an LC300. Same size, but with more power and more towing/hauling capability. An LC70 with big tires and lower gears would probably fit the 30k sales niche and be more $ than 4R, but that doesn't really sound like a Prado variant.

It'll be interesting to see what shows up if it ever does. Seems like Toyota is going to be so late to the game that the overland fad might be over before they ever get to market.

 

[MNT_GOAT]

The last two pages of this thread have been the most exciting Toyota info I've read in the last decade. I cannot wait to see what Toyota has in store for 4X4 vehicles over the next several years. Things have gotten so stale with the current gen 4Runner and GX on their fourteenth consecutive model year, the Tacoma eight years into gen3 which was largely carryover from gen2, debuting in 2004, and the Land Cruiser disappearing completely after fourteen years of the same bloated J200 platform. I hope Toyota knocks these out of the park as I fear we'll be stuck with them for better or for worse through 2040!

 

[Blackwatch]

Based on Carmaker's recent posts it sounds like this is what the US will get:
Toy LC - completely new - offroad focus
Toy 4Runner - evolution but new frame architecture (along with a prado elsewhere) - more family/camper focus
Lex GX550 - completely new - high end offroad Land Cruiser competitor

So that would rule out my theory.

I'm really interested in the Mav/Ridgeline competitor

This makes sense in order to compete most effectively against the Jeep and Bronco plus the Maverick thing they are bringing out. They still need something with a removable roof though.