Best speculation of a 2023 6th generation I have seen

[AZ Craig]

Initial GX550 automotive press articles are hitting, sounds like more coming by next month.

2024 Lexus GX Prototype Off-Road Drive: It Wheels as Good as It Looks

Definitely curious about this and the LC next year...

 

[thatoneguy]

Initial GX550 automotive press articles are hitting, sounds like more coming by next month.

2024 Lexus GX Prototype Off-Road Drive: It Wheels as Good as It Looks

Definitely curious about this and the LC next year...

I wonder when 2024 Tacoma pricing and reviews (and deliveries) will come out. I tend to test drive cars at my local auto show every January (Utah Auto Expo), and Toyota has a booth every year. Hopefully the Tacoma and LC250 will be available.

Seems like ages since the full Tacoma reveal. Get those things to dealers already, it's almost October!

 

[AZ Craig]

I wonder when 2024 Tacoma pricing and reviews (and deliveries) will come out. I tend to test drive cars at my local auto show every January (Utah Auto Expo), and Toyota has a booth every year. Hopefully the Tacoma and LC250 will be available.

Seems like ages since the full Tacoma reveal. Get those things to dealers already, it's almost October!

Has to be soon, but seems like 2023 Tacomas may still be hitting lots. A quick unscientific search on Autotrader showed 1852 within 500 miles of me in Phoenix. So definitely a lot out in the channel right now (even if some are already potentially claimed).

I figure Tacoma pricing and deliveries will beat the LC by a few months potentially.

 

[phillyd2]

I've heard on the Plano grapevine, the Toyota National Dealer Meeting will be in Las Vegas next week, Sept. 12-14. Many of the dealers will see the new 2025 6th gen 4Runner for the first time, expect leaks within a week, hopefully it will include photos.

And? Did they see the 2025 6th gen 4Runner?

 

[Jetboy]

And? Did they see the 2025 6th gen 4Runner?

Yes. Looks like this:

 

[thatoneguy]

Yes. Looks like this:

Oh come on, give Toyota some credit.


....it'll likely also offer a half-baked stickers package!

 

[Buckfever]

You guys are too funny, but we're still waiting to see the Fn thing.

 

[mscot]

I realize this is not a Lexus forum, but considering we've discussed the TX and the new engines being shared across brands, I thought I'd post this anyway.


Lexus has put more information on their site about the TX - I thought it was going to have the V6. All the engines they are listing right now are the 2.4turbo. This blows my mind. I can't imagine why Lexus would put the same engine in the TX as Toyota is in the GH.

For the RX PHEV they put the same engine in the RX as you have in the Rav4 and expect it to carry another 500lbs.

WTF is going on over there? There's no luxury in these engine offerings.

BMW is eating Lexus' lunch in this aspect and their quality keeps improving.

 

[Blackwatch]

I realize this is not a Lexus forum, but considering we've discussed the TX and the new engines being shared across brands, I thought I'd post this anyway.


Lexus has put more information on their site about the TX - I thought it was going to have the V6. All the engines they are listing right now are the 2.4turbo. This blows my mind. I can't imagine why Lexus would put the same engine in the TX as Toyota is in the GH.

For the RX PHEV they put the same engine in the RX as you have in the Rav4 and expect it to carry another 500lbs.

WTF is going on over there? There's no luxury in these engine offerings.

BMW is eating Lexus' lunch in this aspect and their quality keeps improving.

I never thought the TX would have the 3.44tt. That would encroach on the base GX550. Aside from a few on the PHEV options Lexus has always offered the same Toyota motors just with a little more sound deadening. The very popular RX350 and ES350 used the 3.5 V6 for years. I was surprised that the LC250 top trim didn't use the 3.44 motor though.

Where are all the 6th gen 4R leaks? The dealers have had their big reveal. At least let us know if the back window still rolls down.

 

[Jetboy]

I realize this is not a Lexus forum, but considering we've discussed the TX and the new engines being shared across brands, I thought I'd post this anyway.


Lexus has put more information on their site about the TX - I thought it was going to have the V6. All the engines they are listing right now are the 2.4turbo. This blows my mind. I can't imagine why Lexus would put the same engine in the TX as Toyota is in the GH.

For the RX PHEV they put the same engine in the RX as you have in the Rav4 and expect it to carry another 500lbs.

WTF is going on over there? There's no luxury in these engine offerings.

BMW is eating Lexus' lunch in this aspect and their quality keeps improving.

According to the June (?) press release the 2.4Turbo will only be on the Fsport model and the 3.5L (2GR?) will be used for the PHEV model. Possibly those are the only two trims?

The Crown SUV is a TX sibling and it is the NA3.5/hybrid. My assumption was then that was the most premium engine offering. Since it's a PHEV - it should have the most available power, but who knows how Toyota will break it down.

I agree that Toyota is not offering competitive engines in many classes of vehicle, but well above average in other. The GH is WAY faster than anything in the class - IIRC it's around 1 second faster 0-60 than even the Mazda turbo I6 with 350hp. It's a rocket, at least stoplight to stoplight for a big 3 row SUV with a Toyota badge.

I think one of the biggest issues is that Toyota chose to make a TTV6 instead of an I6. If it were an I6 they could vary the options a lot by making single and twin turbo versions to stack something between the 270hp 4cyl and the 400hp 6cyl. They don't have anything in the engine range that fits anywhere between other than the hybridization of the 4cyl turbo. So, everything that's not a TTv6 ends up with some version of the same turbo4. Toyota in my opinion should have built its own version of the B58 equivalent. An I6 version of the T24A would be 3.6L I6 and have around 405hp/480tq. They could also make a single turbo version with less and a twin turbo with more. And even shorten the stroke to about a 3 liter for a mid-size engine to fill the low-mid 300hp range for vehicles like the new LC250.

What's funny about BMW is that the Supra B58 is the lower performance version yet somehow actually beats the M3 Competition despite the M3 having what is supposed to be a significantly higher performance engine. TBH - I don't see a long term future for BMW. I don't think it'll survive the EV competition against Tesla. And I'm not a Tesla stan by any stretch. I just can't see how I would ever seriously look at a BMW sedan when I can buy a Model S for mid $70's now and there's going to be a new Model 3 Plaid or similar that is rumored to be around 700-800hp EV. And it'll be $50k. I know Tesla isn't BMW in a lot of ways, but there's nothing even remotely close from BMW to that performance at any price. At $50k - forget about it.

 

[mscot]

According to the June (?) press release the 2.4Turbo will only be on the Fsport model and the 3.5L (2GR?) will be used for the PHEV model. Possibly those are the only two trims?

The Crown SUV is a TX sibling and it is the NA3.5/hybrid. My assumption was then that was the most premium engine offering. Since it's a PHEV - it should have the most available power, but who knows how Toyota will break it down.

I couldn't get the link to go directly to it, but if you go here and scroll down to Specs, you'll find all the versions and their engines except the PHEV.
2024 Lexus TX - Luxury SUV | Lexus.com

TBH - I don't see a long term future for BMW. I don't think it'll survive the EV competition against Tesla. And I'm not a Tesla stan by any stretch. I just can't see how I would ever seriously look at a BMW sedan when I can buy a Model S for mid $70's now and there's going to be a new Model 3 Plaid or similar that is rumored to be around 700-800hp EV. And it'll be $50k. I know Tesla isn't BMW in a lot of ways, but there's nothing even remotely close from BMW to that performance at any price. At $50k - forget about it.

Just b/c you pack a rocket engine on a go cart doesn't make it a better car. BMW is a significant step up in quality and luxury from anything Tesla has.
They drive far better, they're built better, they have much, much nicer interiors.
BMW had a rough roll out of their new iDrive software, but that seems to be the only real quality issues the new X5 is seeing. If they hire better QAs for their dev teams, they'll be just fine.
If anything, Tesla is competing with VW and I'm willing to bet the upcoming ev GTI will be a much more fun driving experience than a Model3 even if it has 800hp. Unless you're just drag racing, I guess.

 

[Blackwatch]

A Youtuber is saying a dealer source has told him the 6th gen will look a lot like the Tacoma, "boxy" and will be marketed alongside the new RAV4. He doesn't elaborate on that but it's a sniff at some news...

6th GEN Breaking News Time is Up to Get a 5th Gen UAW Strike Perspective 4K - YouTube

 

[Jetboy]

I couldn't get the link to go directly to it, but if you go here and scroll down to Specs, you'll find all the versions and their engines except the PHEV.
2024 Lexus TX - Luxury SUV | Lexus.com




Just b/c you pack a rocket engine on a go cart doesn't make it a better car. BMW is a significant step up in quality and luxury from anything Tesla has.
They drive far better, they're built better, they have much, much nicer interiors.
BMW had a rough roll out of their new iDrive software, but that seems to be the only real quality issues the new X5 is seeing. If they hire better QAs for their dev teams, they'll be just fine.
If anything, Tesla is competing with VW and I'm willing to bet the upcoming ev GTI will be a much more fun driving experience than a Model3 even if it has 800hp. Unless you're just drag racing, I guess.

It's odd that Toyota is using the combinations of engines that they do. If the turbo 4 is great, why not used to cross the whole lineup? And if the V6 is better? Why not use it? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I'm not going to stan for Tesla. But, I looked at my crystal ball - after driving an 800 horsepower model 3 a BMW M3 is going to seem pretty boring. I think that's why we saw the death of the 8 series and the Mercedes S-Class and the Lexus LS. And now with current pricing on the model S - I can't imagine choosing any of those cars over the model S. It just does everything so much better. And it probably lasts longer too.

 

[mscot]

I'm not going to stan for Tesla. But, I looked at my crystal ball - after driving an 800 horsepower model 3 a BMW M3 is going to seem pretty boring. I think that's why we saw the death of the 8 series and the Mercedes S-Class and the Lexus LS. And now with current pricing on the model S - I can't imagine choosing any of those cars over the model S. It just does everything so much better. And it probably lasts longer too.

I guess we'll just have to disagree. Having driven all but an X and Tesla has a long way to go in fit and finish and handling to catch up with BMW. I mean, unless your definition of excitement is trying to keep a car with a shit ton of understeer to stay on the road when you're using that 800hp.

Tesla is already falling behind on their autopilot. GM, Chevy, and BMW are all rated higher. And this is what I've always thought would happen -- all the legacy manufacturers would figure out how to write good software before Tesla would figure out how to build good cars.

And again, that ev VW GTi isn't too far out. Are you really telling me you'd rather drive a Model 3 (no matter the hp) than a GTI?

This thread really has devolved! :lmao:

 

[AZ Craig]

Just b/c you pack a rocket engine on a go cart doesn't make it a better car. BMW is a significant step up in quality and luxury from anything Tesla has.
They drive far better, they're built better, they have much, much nicer interiors.
BMW had a rough roll out of their new iDrive software, but that seems to be the only real quality issues the new X5 is seeing. If they hire better QAs for their dev teams, they'll be just fine.
If anything, Tesla is competing with VW and I'm willing to bet the upcoming ev GTI will be a much more fun driving experience than a Model3 even if it has 800hp. Unless you're just drag racing, I guess.

Amen, I'm seriously considering replacing my Land Rover with a BMW (conflicted between an X3 M40i, X3M and X5 40i currently), having largely realized that I'm going to hate how something with a 3rd row drives as my "Not a 4Runner" vehicle.

BMW interior and quality is so far beyond Tesla that comparing them just seems utterly wrong to me. Tesla interiors are utter junk in my opinion.

 

[mscot]

BMW interior and quality is so far beyond Tesla that comparing them just seems utterly wrong to me. Tesla interiors are utter junk in my opinion.

Teslas are overpriced Jettas

 

[Jetboy]

I think there will always be BMW sporty sedans in the same way there will always be Miata and Harley Davidson motorcycles. I don't see a future as a major global market player. Just my take. The 3 series is all but dead. I'm not sure there is a next generation of buyer coming for BMW.

Tesla build quality is horrendous. No argument there. I hate dealership experiences, but Tesla is the one brand that really needs dealers - so you can inspect and test drive the actual vehicle you'll be buying to pick out a good one. You have to do the quality control on initial inspection because Telsa sure as hell doesn't do it. Having a dozen Model Y's to pick the best from would add value to me. We'll see over the next 10-15 years how this plays out. As it is right now - Tesla is offering a really compelling value. It's the only functional EV IMO because of the charging network. I'll probably buy one as a commuter/runabout car once I'm back in the lower 48. Whatever it is - it'll be either an EV or PHEV. I'd probably buy a PHEV RXh to replace my current RX, but they'll be $80k if you could ever find one, vs $45 ish for a Model Y after tax. I'll take the Model Y.

Probably also buy a LC250 or new 4Runner whenever they are actually available for our second daily driver and keep the Tundra and FJ40. Not going all-in on EV. But I'm certainly on-board with never needing to visit a gas station, remote climate control, dog mode, etc. They're just functionally better vehicles for daily people moving. Would be great if Toyota builds a PHEV 4Runner. But I won't hold my breath. The lack of even a fuel efficient hybrid Tundra or any EV or PHEV Tacoma tells me it's probably not coming in this generation.

 

[AZ Craig]

I think there will always be BMW sporty sedans in the same way there will always be Miata and Harley Davidson motorcycles. I don't see a future as a major global market player. Just my take. The 3 series is all but dead. I'm not sure there is a next generation of buyer coming for BMW.

Tesla build quality is horrendous. No argument there. I hate dealership experiences, but Tesla is the one brand that really needs dealers - so you can inspect and test drive the actual vehicle you'll be buying to pick out a good one. You have to do the quality control on initial inspection because Telsa sure as hell doesn't do it. Having a dozen Model Y's to pick the best from would add value to me. We'll see over the next 10-15 years how this plays out. As it is right now - Tesla is offering a really compelling value. It's the only functional EV IMO because of the charging network. I'll probably buy one as a commuter/runabout car once I'm back in the lower 48. Whatever it is - it'll be either an EV or PHEV. I'd probably buy a PHEV RXh to replace my current RX, but they'll be $80k if you could ever find one, vs $45 ish for a Model Y after tax. I'll take the Model Y.

Probably also buy a LC250 or new 4Runner whenever they are actually available for our second daily driver and keep the Tundra and FJ40. Not going all-in on EV. But I'm certainly on-board with never needing to visit a gas station, remote climate control, dog mode, etc. They're just functionally better vehicles for daily people moving. Would be great if Toyota builds a PHEV 4Runner. But I won't hold my breath. The lack of even a fuel efficient hybrid Tundra or any EV or PHEV Tacoma tells me it's probably not coming in this generation.

So I haven't overly researched this, but isn't BMW the largest global volume seller for luxury cars (I found a number at 2.4 million units annualized, well above Mercedes and Audi whom are #2 and #3)?

I personally don't think they are going anywhere. Yes, you may see some of their car sales slacken off, and they do seem to be plateaued at around ~300K units in the US annually right now (with I imagine a huge amount of their volume being in the X1, X3 and X5), but I'm pretty sure we'll see some more electric SUVs beyond the iX from BMW very soon in the US and I'm sure they will sell like hot cakes (even if a bit more expensive than equivalent vehicles from Tesla).

I completely get where you are coming from with Tesla. They are indeed a great value and not a bad car now. But the fact that they have become so ubiquitous in tandem with the lack of available options (5 exterior colors, 2 interiors) kind of kills them for me combined with the questionable build quality. I also look at the bath people have taken on them in residual value with the prices being moved around at will. My neighbors just picked up a Model X Plaid before the price drop; surely a fun way to basically destroy ~$30K of value overnight.

I also think the Tesla charging network advantage will start to soften in 2025 as more manufacturers get behind the NACS standard and Tesla opens up its super charger network to more manufacturers. I do agree at this point though if you want an electric vehicle, a Model 3 or Model Y is probably the best buy.

I've waffled on if PHEVs make sense to be honest. I was considering putting the BMW X5 50e in the mix for my 2nd car replacement, but once I realized the penalty you take in gas mileage with it versus the 40i when you cannot keep it charged on longer trips kind of ruined it for me. The fundamental problem with PHEV is always going to be the combination of higher initial cost of ownership along with the fact that once you've depleted the 25 to 50 mile range you are dragging around 500+ pounds of battery dead weight with motors that can at most temporarily boost your power output in a high load situation.

I am warming up to the possibility of replacing my 4Runner with a LC, GX550 or a 6th gen. I figure that's probably a 2025 problem at soonest though .

 

[Jetboy]

For me the PHEV is the ideal option. At least in Toyota's portfolio the performance is better, mpg is usually better, and MSRP is pretty reasonable if they ever actually build them. The number of trips per year that I would also take my crossover over 50 miles per day are relatively rare. And the PHEV would cover those uses. One of the challenges for most longer range PHEV owners I know is making sure to burn through a full tank of gas every 3 months or so to make sure it doesn't go bad in the tank.

I think the regular hybrid is a bit of a miss for towing. Not enough battery to flatten the mountains but almost all the weight. A 20kwh battery hybrid can flatten every pass in the USA highway system - probably a PHEV at that point. Full electric assist up the pass and the ability to regen the entire downhill run. It's just a matter of time for someone to finally develop them and produce in volume. I think the regular hybrid for a truck without a big enough battery for the mountains is pretty useless. And I'd also say EV trucks are pretty useless unless you're a fleet truck as a local contractor. For that - EV trucks are ideal. But for me - I would rather have no hybrid or a PHEV for a truck or SUV.

I do drive the RX on road trips, but most often drive the truck. With kids - midsize SUVs don't have enough room many times. Currently - living in Alaska - I'm probably 70-80% of the time pulling either a UTV or travel trailer for trips more than 50 miles away. But this isn't really normal situation where practically everything is 100+ miles away and I can drive for 20 hours and still be in the same state. Ugh. I need an airplane. If I were going to live here long term, no question - I'd buy one.

 

[phillyd2]

Someone should have told BMW the 3 series was dead before they spent over a billion dollars to build their new factory. Idiots.