Black798's 98 limited build thread

[Black798]

If you were talking to Hayden ( [MENTION=107971]derpiful[/MENTION] ), he was running 7069s with 1.25" spidertrax, which would explain the fender rub. If not, then ???.

I didnt talk to Hayden about the rubbing he had. I did find it odd though that currently, his 35s appear to be totally inside the fender flares, which was one thing that kept me considering the 305's. But when I measured the 305 width against my current tires it looked like it would have been way outside the flares which I really don't like. Plus they were more expensive and not nearly as common.

The guy I talked to was from Butte, he's somewhere on here but I don't know his tag. His Instagram is @mt_t4r. He was running a 99 limited with icon coilovers, spc uppers, and 7069s with no spacers and ended up needing to trim the sheet metal on his fenders and gut the flares and was rubbing the pinch well area pretty bad. But I don't know what his alignment specs were...

I'm really hoping I don't have to cut the flares or fender and can get away with just trimming off the pinch weld and smoothing out the firewall side of the fenderwell. I've already decided I won't be using a BFH to gain clearance so any massaging I need will come in the form of retubbing. It's more work but I think it will look a little more professional

 

[Black798]

I got the new tires installed. Ended up going with 285/75/16 falken wildpeaks and couldn't really be happier. I originally wanted 305s but went with these because they're more common and cheaper, and the narrower style is growing on me. I also cranked up the coilovers another inch since I was barely getting an inch of lift before. I think the Eibach coils have sagged a decent amount and Im considering using 700 lb coils when I get new kings this year.

Initial impressions while driving are, in town and stop and go I hardly notice a decrease in power, running on the highway and up the pass I drive every day I really feel it and basically just have to leave it in 3rd all the time. The one upside is I have way less body roll and it rides a bit smoother than the P rated 265s. All you who say E rated tires are "harsh" are full of it. I also did some quick flexing in the drive tonight and I am going to have very little rubbing, just a little on the firewall that shouldn't be too hard to fix. Im also going to trim the rear bumper back a bit because it's really close.

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Firestone did a pretty good job on the alignment considering as my lower control arm bushings and inner tie rods are so worn out. Ill be dealing with that later this summer once I'm back to working full time and have some money. Toe is a bit heavy for my liking so I might back it down a touch.
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[Black798]

Firewall Trimming

Well what was supposed to be a quick project ended up turning into a 2 day hassle that had me hacking holes in my floor and nearly burning the truck to the ground.

This weekend I decided to trim the necessary parts for the new tires to clear completely so I dont rip off a flare/fender this summer when Im wheeling. I started out by flexing out the rear end in the drive to see what if anything rubbed and thankfully nothing did. Its a little tight to my bumper so I might reshape it a bit but for now it will be fine.
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The front, on the other hand, was a bit of a mess. Under normal driving conditions it was fine I could see it was going to have issues when flexed out. I started out by pulling the coilovers so I could flex it in the garage and did the first test of the steering at full compression on the driver side. Not surprisingly the tire was hitting the inside corner of the flare and pinchweld area so I started by cutting those out.

Before...
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After...
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I put the tire back on and it was still rubbing like crazy at the pinchweld so checked to see if it was just that I didn't have enough caster in the alignment. Turn full lock to the right and it starts rubbing up front too so that's not the problem. After staring at it for a bit I decided I was going to have to punch a hole in the floor. Ended up with this
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For anyone that will be doing this in the future on their truck, spend the 10 dollars or whatever it is to get a fiberglass welding blanket from harbor freight. This thing literally saved me from burning the truck to the ground. As you can see the wiring is super close to where you have to cut the hole and on top of that the paint and undercoating is extremely flammable so when grinding or welding it will be constantly trying to melt things. I was lucky and managed to not damage the wiring.

I patched up the hole, ground the welds smooth, and then sealed them with some silicone to make sure water cant get into the cab.
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Moving onto the passenger side.

Round 1...
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Round 2...
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This side ended up still rubbing down low even after the pinch weld was entirely removed. Ideally I would have removed the fender and cut it back further and capped the cab corner but I really wasn't motivated to do that. I made it as smooth as possible so if it does rub it won't hurt anything.

Capped, welded, and smoothed...
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I then went back and cut some thin pieces of plastic to keep the mud and water out of the inner fender and off the door.
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Looks stock to the untrained eye...
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Im pretty happy with how it came out but wish I had of been able to completely eliminate the rubbing. I think Ill also be relocating the washer tank since the tire rubs a bit on that. Cant be too disappointed though since the truck is on all fours and I managed to only light it on fire 4 times

While I was waiting on paint to dry I also decided to pull the ADD system off the old front diff and clean out any metal particles left from the old spider gears. Someday when I have the funds Ill be sending it to ECGS to be rebuilt with an ARB and 4.88s. When I pulled the stub shaft out I was pretty surprised to see that the splines on it had started to twist slightly much like what [MENTION=44220]BigFishAllDay[/MENTION] found on his. The twisting is very slight and hard to see but I checked it with a straight edge so it was only a matter of time before this broke, if I had to guess it was only like a quarter of a degree it had twisted and it was odd that it only showed up on some of the splines rather than all of them. How I managed to do this with stock sized tires I do not know. You really can't tell in the picture but I wasn't able to get it to show up well.
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[BigFishAllDay]

Nice work, Phoenix. I just barely rub in the same spots you had to cut out, but I think I'm getting away with it thanks to the 1/2" BL. I think the new wheels are going to force me to make similar cuts, though.

I like the solution you came up with for blocking the new opening in the inner fender. I have been meaning to figure that out. I have to wash my door jambs after each trip because they get full of crap. Glad to see you caught the damage to the stub as well. [MENTION=118730]AssBurns[/MENTION] is having a batch cryo'd at some point... might be something to think about.

Did you end up clearing the fender lips after all?

 

[Black798]

I didn't end up needing to cut the fender lips at all. They clear by about 1/2 an inch. I think when I rebuild the front suspension this fall I'll throw in a set of the softer super bumps just to help keep the front suspension bottoming more controlled if I have issues with it rubbing at speed.

As far as the stud shaft I'm kind of at a loss as far as what to do. The one I pulled out was just barely twisted but I would hate to deal with a broken one in the truck and now that I am on bigger tires I know that will be under a higher load and it's probably a matter of time before it breaks. I've thought about getting one cryo treated but all the places I called couldn't actually tell me if it would make a difference. I usually got a response of "I really can't tell you definitively but some people say it helps." And I don't know enough about metallurgy to know for sure which makes it hard to spend the money on it. Another option I considered was talking to the machinist I worked for in Denver and having him make me one out of 4340 chromoly but I have no idea what the cost of that would be.

 

[BigFishAllDay]

Good to hear on the fender lips. I knew you'd clear them.

RE the stubs, I'm surprised we don't see more reports of them breaking around here. They must be tough little chunks of metal, or maybe Toyota engineered the front end so they don't see the same loading as the pass side CV somehow. That is beyond my knowledge of metallurgy as well.

 

[AssBurns]

[MENTION=121903]Black798[/MENTION] If you want to jump in on the batch I'm looking to get Cryo'd, It should cost around $50. Might be less depending on how many people get in on it. After some reading about Cryo treatment, it sounds like it should help make the stub shaft harder and tougher, which is exactly what is needed. Obviously 4340 Cro-Mo will be better if heat treated properly. Sounds like some serious money to have a custom one made though.

 

[Black798]

[MENTION=118730]AssBurns[/MENTION] the cost would be the main issue with getting it built from chromoly. If it was actually affordable I'm sure you could sell quite a few of them though.
as of right now I'm not too worried about doing anything about it though and I need to get some things paid off before I start doing more to the truck, plus it would end up just sitting in my toolbox for a long time before it goes into the truck. Assuming I don't grenade this diff or break the stub shaft it's probably going to be at least a year before I think about regearing and having the front built so I'll probably just decide what I want to do then.

It will be interesting to see how the treated shafts hold up once you get them back.

 

[BrianSD_42]

This is just my opinion but I suggest you do not go with 700 King's. I have 600 lb coils and am pretty happy with em. They ride pretty great. I've got a good amount of weight added, pretty much everything but a winch. If anything don't go higher than 650 King coils.

Of course get your own opinion by calling King (vendor) directly, not relying on a reseller completely. But I'm pretty sure 650 is Overkill and 700 would be suicide unless you are building an armored car 4Runner.

 

[Black798]

Thanks for the input on the coilovers Brian. I currently have 620lb coils on my Bilstein 5100s and they ride pretty well on the road. The main issues I have is that they seem to have settled close to an inch over the last 10 thousand miles and with the weight of the skids, bumper, and winch so I have quite a bit of pre load on them to get 2 inches of lift. The bumper and winch alone is around 140lbs and then another 70 for the skids. And they also seem either way undervalved in the shocks or something when Im running across stuff at speed because they will basically just bounce from full compression to full droop whenever I roll over something bigger than id say 6 inches.

I know [MENTION=44220]BigFishAllDay[/MENTION] and [MENTION=82211]TCMach[/MENTION] are running 700lb coils on their trucks and are happy with them but they do seem to limit articulation a bit.

I do still need to call king directly through and get their opinion because I know the kings are a whole different animal than the Bilsteins. I just want something in the front that can keep up with the rear because right now the front rides like shit and is all over the place while the rear is just super controlled and consistent. 650lb coils may end up being the happy spot for what I need

 

[4-Ripcord]

^x2 on all of that. 650 is as high as I would go even with a steel winch.


Great looking trip though! You hit all the good spots. Must have been fun!

 

[Black798]

Thanks, I'm looking forward to doing it again next year!
[MENTION=7992]Ripcord[/MENTION] I guess Im struggling a bit to understand how the lesser coil rate on the kings can support the same weight as the 620 eibachs with less pre load. I currently have 2 1/4 inches of pre load on my driver side and around 1 3/4 on the passenger and barely get 2 inches of lift.

I understand the whole leverage effect of the a arm and that the kings have much better valving than the Bilsteins but the valving won't affect your ride height, just how the shock controls the compression and rebound which I know the Kings will be much better for. But since the different shocks are mounting in the same spots something doesn't seem to add up for me on the ride height since my 620lb coils seem to struggle to support the weight now. You were running 600lb coils on your last truck right?

 

[4-Ripcord]

IMAG0213 by Phoenix Black, on Flickr]

Well according to this pic you have 600# springs not 620#. Unless the other side is 620 which would explain your vastly different preload settings. Also, when you say "preload" I assume you are referring to the amount of threads showing? That is a common measurement to use for comparison but it is not spring preload. For that you need compare current unloaded spring length to the free length (which 14" in this case, according to the text on the spring)

Since shocks like this are built usually from standard parts, the threads on the cylinder aren't always a good indication of the amount the spring is preloaded.

 

[Black798]

Ok that makes more sense. I could have sworn those were 620 coils when I ordered them from toytec. The one thing I thought could be the cause of the vastly different amount of thread showing on the collar is that since it was built on the 5100s with the variable clip settings was that one collar is on a different clip than the other.

Knowing that now I may stick with 600lb coils since the kings are valved entirely different and can be set up for my truck. And seeing how the rear acts just by changing the compression adjuster where the truck goes from super soft to a total brick wagon I can imagine the valving will make a huge difference.

 

[4-Ripcord]

Ride quality is only impacted if you are overloading springs and still cranking the preload to get to more than 2.5" of lift. As can be seen here :http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...king-shocks-ride-like-crap-5.html#post2893537

With a synthetic winch and less than 2.5" of lift, you will be fine. if you think you may add some more weight (heavy skids for example) then try 650.

 

[Black798]

Good to know, thanks Jim! I don't anticipate the front of the truck getting any heavier, I've already got full 3/16 skids and the bumper with the winch so there isn't much I can do to add weight. Thinking about it now I'll probably be going with 600lb coils unless something drastic changes.

 

[BrianSD_42]

With all this talk about 600, 620, 650 coils (in many other places than just this thread) I feel like it should be mentioned that one vendors 600 is not going to be equal to another vendors 600 coil in terms of how much lift it will provide and the ride quality. Eg don't compare a 650 coil from vendor A to 650 coil from vendor B. Instead contact the vendor you are most interested in and explain your truck and add-ons, future goals and desired ride. They should then tell you what weight -of their brand- coil to choose.

Btw not sure if you have large wheel spacers but if so that could be adding to the rubbing. I have a 1" BL, 2" lift, and 0.75" wheel spacers.

 

[Black798]

I agree that not all the springs are equal. Just looking at pictures you can se the King springs have way more coils and are a larger gauge than say a Toytec coil. Along with that, every little difference in the heat treating and manufacturing will change how that spring acts.

I'm not running any spacers on this truck. I ran them for a week when I was on stock rims and then installed the new rims. Unfortunately, I couldn't return the spacers so they're just sitting in the garage. The specs on the Ray 10s are 16x8, 4 inch backspacing, and -12mm offset.

I think part of my rubbing issue is that the Wildpeaks run larger than most other 285s and I was clearancing them at full street pressure after I chalked tested them. I don't rub at all at ride height, just at full bump and full lock, but the amount of lift won't really dictate whether you rub since the suspension still cycles the same amount.

Ideally, I would run a .5 inch body lift but I don't want to rework all the armor to fit with that so at some point, I'll pull the fenders off and trim a little more to completely eliminate all the rubbing since it's on the cab corner and not in the fender well. After this, I most likely won't ever be running 35s on this truck or at least not while it's my daily driver. There are just too many compromises I'm not willing to make sense so far I'm really happy with the 33's

 

[BrianSD_42]

In my opinion 0.5" won't show a gap that is noticeable to anyone but a few extreme folks. I didn't get my front and rear bumpers retooled after I understand the 1" BL. Some people might notice in person but I think it is hardly noticable, maybe because my truck is black and it tricks the eye. Perhaps you could get away with a 0.5" BL just fine.

 

[Black798]

I think the black probably hides the gap really well. When I was building my bumpers setting the body gap was probably the hardest part because even .25 of an inch showed up and was really evident. I could paint the body gap that shows, I might try unbolting a couple mounts to jack up the body and seeing how it looks.