Bought a 3rd gen with a strange history.. am I screwed?

[4ranover]

A few days ago I looked at a craigslist 2000 SR5 with 120k miles. It looked good, drove great, everything functioned mechanically, no body rust or body work, carfax checked out, clean title, so we made the deal and drove off. 4 hours to home and no problems at all.

The next day I started poking around and found some serious frame rust. I'm a little peeved the seller didn't disclose this, but I guess he wasn't under any obligation to do so. After some research, it seems these 3rd gens have notorious frame rot problems, especially here in the Midwest. I do feel taken advantage of, though.. we paid a bit more than we anticipated, justified in that this 4Runner appears to be really well cared for, with low miles, in seemingly fantastic shape.

Here's where things get strange. The frame made me suspicious, so I looked at the title and noticed it bounced around between dealers before ending up in my hands:

• [Jan'16] Transferred from elderly owner to Dealer A, that also happens to run a salvage yard
• [Mar'16] Transferred from Dealer A to Dealer B
• [Apr'16] Transferred from Dealer B to Dealer C
• [Aug'16] Transferred from Dealer C to Dealer D

Dealer C and Dealer D are the same person: my seller. We are in IL. Seller's company, Dealer C has a WA address, and just before he transferred the title to my name, he transferred it to his second company, Dealer D, with a TX address.

So many questions.

1) Should I be concerned that this vehicle bounced around between dealers?
2) Should I be concerned that the first dealer also runs a salvage yard?
3) Multiple companies in different states.. is it for tax loopholes?

I've since looked over the car top to bottom and I can't find anything seriously concerning. The engine is original, no odometer fraud (based on Toyota service records and emission checks), no body damage or repairs (aside from a small dent in the rear bumper), air bags intact, clean toyota service records, clean title history. Really the only thing is the frame.

Edit: checked body panel VIN stickers. Couldn't find a resource itemizing where the stickers should be, but they appear everywhere I would expect. All over the vehicle, and they're symmetrical, plus one on the hatch. Good sign.

Thanks!

 

[Unner]

Probably got bounced around due to frame rot then if everything is original. Check the vin stickers on the fenders, hatch, etc if you want to see if it's ever been wrecked. Does your state have an inspection that check for frame rot? Maybe it got bounced around because it couldn't pass. Just a thought.

 

[Victor_inox]

Private seller doesn`t have to disclose anything, I`m sure bill of sale saying AS IS.
It`s buyer responsibility not to get screwed.

There is high possibility seller was not aware of the frame rust, after all 99.99% of people don`t give a damn about it.

 

[4ranover]

Probably got bounced around due to frame rot then if everything is original. Check the vin stickers on the fenders, hatch, etc if you want to see if it's ever been wrecked. Does your state have an inspection that check for frame rot? Maybe it got bounced around because it couldn't pass. Just a thought.

Thanks for weighing in. I don't think Illinois does really does inspections of any kind.. in my experience, it's just tailpipe emissions every 2 years. Haven't researched this though.. probably a good idea.

 

[4ranover]

Seller doesn`t have to disclose anything, I`m sure bill of sale saying AS IS.
It`s buyer responsibility not to get screwed.

Totally agree and I accept responsibility..

At the time of purchase, I was under the impression I was buying from an individual (from his home, at that). The story changes slightly since I've realized the individual is actually a dealer, and I believe there are dealer non-disclosure laws that protect buyers. Not that I really think I have any recourse.

 

[Unner]

Thanks for weighing in. I don't think Illinois does really does inspections of any kind.. in my experience, it's just tailpipe emissions every 2 years. Haven't researched this though.. probably a good idea.

I'm not sure how inspections really work anyone with all of my cars always having been registered in Alabama where we have no inspection of any kind.

 

[wemslie97]

I'm in St. Charles I'll, curious what dealer it was. Had a similar experience before I bought my 97 ltd. Almost bought a 99 sr5. Rusted control arm bracket. The usual. Did their best to hide it including dropping the spare tire a couple inches to disguise the sound and thump of a rusted bracket about to fall off. I was pissed and they took the car back the next day.

 

[Victor_inox]

Totally agree and I accept responsibility..

At the time of purchase, I was under the impression I was buying from an individual (from his home, at that). The story changes slightly since I've realized the individual is actually a dealer, and I believe there are dealer non-disclosure laws that protect buyers. Not that I really think I have any recourse.

dealer can be dealt with by dealer board, give them a call.
Dealers hate dealing with the board, usually just settle.

 

[Gadgetguy]

I always take a potential buy to my mechanic, he doesn't charge much to take a good overall look at it. If I lived in a rust belt, I would also take it to a body shop to have it inspected. People that work on them day in and day out can spot things that even a well educated car/truck owner can't, and I'd rather kick out $200 bucks to know if its good or not. I don't think a body shop would charge much to inspect the frame etc. and they could definitely tell if it was in a wreck previously.

Good luck man, I have bought one truck on ebay that came from IL and will NEVER do it again.

 

[4ranover]

I'm in St. Charles I'll, curious what dealer it was. Had a similar experience before I bought my 97 ltd. Almost bought a 99 sr5. Rusted control arm bracket. The usual. Did their best to hide it including dropping the spare tire a couple inches to disguise the sound and thump of a rusted bracket about to fall off. I was pissed and they took the car back the next day.

I'll PM you the dealer as not to smear their name (giving them benefit of the doubt here).

The dealer took the 99 SR5 back after you bought it?! I'm curious to hear how this played out, and how difficult the process was. What was your course of action? Did you threaten to report the dealer for fraud?

By comparison, how was the frame rust in your 97 ltd? I'm thinking this frame rot problem plagues all midwest 3rd gens.. I've contacted some sellers that refuse to even send frame photos.

 

[4ranover]

dealer can be dealt with by dealer board, give them a call.
Dealers hate dealing with the board, usually just settle.

With 2 registered dealer companies and addresses in 3 different states, something tells me this guy is equipped to handle these sort of issues... but yeah, it's probably worth a shot. I wonder which state I would even call.

 

[4ranover]

I always take a potential buy to my mechanic, he doesn't charge much to take a good overall look at it. If I lived in a rust belt, I would also take it to a body shop to have it inspected. People that work on them day in and day out can spot things that even a well educated car/truck owner can't, and I'd rather kick out $200 bucks to know if its good or not. I don't think a body shop would charge much to inspect the frame etc. and they could definitely tell if it was in a wreck previously.

I'm taking it to a mechanic tomorrow, but I hadn't considered body shop. That's a good call. I'm also planning on calling Dealer A in the morning, to inquire about the circumstances surrounding the vehicle, but I'm not anticipating getting much (any) information out of them.

 

[thegipper]

Post some pictures of the frame rot. Before you get too concerned with it, lets see how bad it really is. Some people think their frames are destroyed when in fact, they just need a little TLC.

 

[wemslie97]

I'll PM you the dealer as not to smear their name (giving them benefit of the doubt here).

The dealer took the 99 SR5 back after you bought it?! I'm curious to hear how this played out, and how difficult the process was. What was your course of action? Did you threaten to report the dealer for fraud?

By comparison, how was the frame rust in your 97 ltd? I'm thinking this frame rot problem plagues all midwest 3rd gens.. I've contacted some sellers that refuse to even send frame photos.

They threatened to have the truck towed from their lot and I threatened to sue them for negligence and deception. In the end I suppose I might have lost that battle because it is buyer beware. But dealers in Illinois do have some responsibility 4 making sure that the cars they sell are safe for the road. Especially since they have the facilities to inspect their cars before they sell them. This truck happened to be small potatoes for this dealer as they sold much more expensive cars. That fact alone probably saved me. The rust on the 97 that I eventually bought is nothing like that one. They were both Illinois trucks all their life so I think that's a testament to taking care of the undercarriage of any car like it says in the manual. Especially when buying a 20 year old truck in a rust hole Like Illinois.

 

[Freb_mc]

I ran into a similar issue before I bought my 97 in Kansas City, so I feel ya on the rust belt issue. I test drove a 1998 that looked great, interior was great and it had low miles. It ran and drove good but the back end felt soft, kinda loose, but it didn't alarm me too bad. We agreed on a price, shook hands and was going to run to the bank across the street and get cash. As I was walking by it to get back into my car I had a thought to look under it at the frame. I have no idea why I suddenly thought to look at it, but I am glad I did, both the rear control arm mounts were rust of and at least 12-18 inches of frame ahead of it was 3/4's gone! and the rear mounts were tacked up with a piece of 1 inch metal strap?! He claims he knew nothing about it, and was mad when I said I was choosing not to buy it. Sure I felt bad because I shook hands on a deal and backed out, but I could not afford to get stuck with that mess.

 

[4ranover]

here's the frame rot. yeah, it's bad.

I'm a little embarrassed/hesitant to even be posting these. I've seen other frame rust threads, so I know how this goes. I get ripped apart, lots of suggestions to take it to a junkyard, and I should have just burned up a pile of money instead op2:

Lets start with the worst of it. The passenger side inner frame, near muffler, from cross member to rear LCA.

The outer frame is just a little bit better... but I don't feel great about the LCA mount.

Fortunately the mount itself is in tact.. I've seen others where these have completed rotted away. Makes me feel a smidge better..

By comparison, the drivers side looks much better.. but I have a feeling something's hiding behind the gas tank.

And just for kicks, the money shot. This fell out of the passenger side frame when I started poking around. Approx 2" x 4". :rain:

 

[Victor_inox]

Contact dealer board in the state you bought it, I don`t know about your state but in CO retail dealer must have physical address to perform business.
wholesale dealer doesn`t but wholesale can`t sell to the public, whoever is on the papers is responsible to make sure vehicle is safe to drive, that rust bucket clearly not.
I`m sorry that happened to you but battle is not lost just yet.

 

[Scramble]

Not to rub salt in your wounds but you have to check the frame before buying one of theses things from the salt belt. I hope you can get the dealer to take it back. That's a safety issue. Good Luck!

 

[Scramble]

It looks like it was painted over at one point. Either Black paint to hide it or POR 15 to try to save it. It's saveable if you find a good welder.

 

[4ranover]

Not to rub salt in your wounds but you have to check the frame before buying one of theses things from the salt belt. I hope you can get the dealer to take it back. That's a safety issue. Good Luck!

Lesson learned... Likely expensive lesson learned. I'm still surprised though, because I've had cars in the rust belt older than this one with only light surface rust on the frame.

It looks like it was painted over at one point. Either Black paint to hide it or POR 15 to try to save it. It's saveable if you find a good welder.

I just took it to a mechanic, they shrieked like little girls, quoted unknown amount of labor. Immediately after that, took it to a body shop / welder, he wasn't phased a bit: "Typical for these parts. Not bad. Definitely fixable." Whew. Made me feel a bit better.