Do you know if you sent your first message to them before the return period ended? That might make a difference if they've been ignoring you. Either way, I'd report the seller to ebay since they falsely advertised a safety-critical component - https://www.ebay.com/help/action?topicid=4022
Brake Gremlin
- Thread starter werminghausen
- Start date
Thanks for reporting accumulator pressure result. How is the brake pedal feel?
On a side note, my VSC and Trac lights came on (no ABS light) with CEL for two drive cycles and then went off. They have been off since. My friend's Lexus also has the same lights on with CEL or ABS lights. Hmmm.
On a side note, my VSC and Trac lights came on (no ABS light) with CEL for two drive cycles and then went off. They have been off since. My friend's Lexus also has the same lights on with CEL or ABS lights. Hmmm.
werminghausen
New member
After installation of the new accumulator and MC bleeding I started the car but the alarm went off... strange. The pump seems to struggle to put out pressure.
The pump is on for a minute or so but seems not be able to produce pressure.
The alarm is 'all the lights': Brake, ABS and Traction.
I shut off and the same thing happened without starting the engine...sure the engine has no impact on the performance of the brake booster as it is fully electrical.
What can that be?
I am frustrated at this point as I don't know what is wrong. Why should the pump all of a sudden give up?
As I don't fully understand what this mean I can only guess that the required pressure is not reached and therefore the alarm went off...
I think the pressure pump does not need any bleeding as it is fed directly from above.... the reservoir.
I am at a loss.
Could it be something else? For instance the ABS /Traction control unit
What are my options to resolve this?
Buying an entire new unit for 1400?
The pump is on for a minute or so but seems not be able to produce pressure.
The alarm is 'all the lights': Brake, ABS and Traction.
I shut off and the same thing happened without starting the engine...sure the engine has no impact on the performance of the brake booster as it is fully electrical.
What can that be?
I am frustrated at this point as I don't know what is wrong. Why should the pump all of a sudden give up?
As I don't fully understand what this mean I can only guess that the required pressure is not reached and therefore the alarm went off...
I think the pressure pump does not need any bleeding as it is fed directly from above.... the reservoir.
I am at a loss.
Could it be something else? For instance the ABS /Traction control unit
What are my options to resolve this?
Buying an entire new unit for 1400?
werminghausen
New member
Update.
I was going back to the T4R playing around. I remembered having heard a sound that I had not heard before.
I started the engine and no sound came on, only the warning lights (all of these 4 lights).
I started driving on my property only to see if the brakes worked and they did!
Despite the lights the brakes felt pretty good, better than before. Hey what is going on? I was driving in town a bit and braking was not an issue at all, very happy with the brakes hey!
Then I shut the engine off and restarted and the alarm sound came on (so I had that high pitch sound and the 4 alarm lights)....I was in park, very uncomfortable....then i heard that weird noise from the booster:
While the pump motor was on there was another irregular second noise, very different from the pump motor. That second noise was not regular but came on frequently. What is that noise? Can it be the traction control?
And the brake motor was running constantly, as if it cannot keep up.
Can it be that I have a problem with the traction control?
I don't know how the traction control works hydraulically and if the traction control can have the brake motor run all the time?
In short, there are two modes the car is on right now:
A) The 4 dash warning lights are on, silent-no sound and the brakes work nicely. Brake motor comes on roughly every third brake action. Brakes feel good.
B) The 4 dash warning lights are on and the alarm sound in on. This comes with the brake motor on at all times with a frequent weird noise from the brake booster unit, [possibly related to traction control.
With that high pitch I did not dare to drive.
Any help is good help.
Martin
I was going back to the T4R playing around. I remembered having heard a sound that I had not heard before.
I started the engine and no sound came on, only the warning lights (all of these 4 lights).
I started driving on my property only to see if the brakes worked and they did!
Despite the lights the brakes felt pretty good, better than before. Hey what is going on? I was driving in town a bit and braking was not an issue at all, very happy with the brakes hey!
Then I shut the engine off and restarted and the alarm sound came on (so I had that high pitch sound and the 4 alarm lights)....I was in park, very uncomfortable....then i heard that weird noise from the booster:
While the pump motor was on there was another irregular second noise, very different from the pump motor. That second noise was not regular but came on frequently. What is that noise? Can it be the traction control?
And the brake motor was running constantly, as if it cannot keep up.
Can it be that I have a problem with the traction control?
I don't know how the traction control works hydraulically and if the traction control can have the brake motor run all the time?
In short, there are two modes the car is on right now:
A) The 4 dash warning lights are on, silent-no sound and the brakes work nicely. Brake motor comes on roughly every third brake action. Brakes feel good.
B) The 4 dash warning lights are on and the alarm sound in on. This comes with the brake motor on at all times with a frequent weird noise from the brake booster unit, [possibly related to traction control.
With that high pitch I did not dare to drive.
Any help is good help.
Martin
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werminghausen
New member
Not sure if I would call it sighing noise, maybe it is ...or wining. It comes an goes and comes and goes. It is definitely a noise that triggered my concern. It is not very loud and you don't hear it clearly when in the car ( \remember I have the alarm sound at the same time and the brake motor is running non stop in this mode). I was outside and was next to the brake booster unit in order to hear it clearer. It seems that this noise comes from the booster, maybe from the side where the ABS VSC and other magic is happening.
Can the VSC/Traction cause the brake motor to work hard?
Can the VSC/Traction cause the brake motor to work hard?
werminghausen
New member
This is a video link... showing my issues with the brakes. You can hear the pump motor running at all times and you can hear the second noise coming from the side where the electrical connectors are.
I am not sure if this link works with my google drive.
Shared album - Martin Werminghausen - Google Photos
I clearly need help for the analysis.
Thanks, Martin
I am not sure if this link works with my google drive.
Shared album - Martin Werminghausen - Google Photos
I clearly need help for the analysis.
Thanks, Martin
werminghausen
New member
Here is my summary of what happens
As of March 27 after installing the new brake pump accumulator on my 2003 T4R
I experienced some weird things
Key in the ‘ignition on’ position (no engine start) is leading to one of the two modes….
The more I am repeating this exercise the more dominant B becomes meaning A is happening only very rarely (maybe one out of 10)
A)
VCS/TRAC/ABS/BRAKE alarm light issue:
All 4 warning lights come up but no alarm sound and brake motor does not run..
During test drive I am still having good braking power.
B)
VCS/TRAC/ABS/BRAKE alarm light PLUS alarm sound issue
All 4 warning lights come and alarm sound!
Brake pump motor runs non stop.
In addition in B I have the sighing/wining noise coming from the side of the brake booster unit
(see/hear video)
What do the VCS/TRAC/ABS/BRAKE alarm lights mean?
I simply don’t know for sure what the lights mean.
If the single lights come on if could mean:
1 Brake alarm light…. If this light comes on solely then it could be emergency brake on or low
Brake fluid (if it stays on when the emergency brake is released)
2 VSC/TRAC alarm light might be coming on as a pair (at least I have not seen the ASC /Trac light coming on as a single light, same for Trac off
3 ABS alarm light… I don’t think I ever saw that light come on single… but it might come on single if there is a specific problem with the ABS?
4 All lights come on at once
It could be that all theses lights and the alarm sound come on if the brake pressure is not reached
(if brake pressure not reached/ ABS VSC/Trac will also come on)
If the ABS or VSC/Trac has a problem…. My guess is they come on separately (I once had the VSC/Trac light up separately) . Maybe the car can still be driven in an emergency but the alarm will be so obvious that it is clear that car needs service
5 All lights and Alarm Sound come on all at once:
I am not sure what the difference it make between 4 and 5 (alarm sound added to the mix)
Maybe this is a higher alarm and driving the car is now dangerous
What might trigger the alarm?
1 There is a physical problem causing the pressure not be built correctly
a Pump not working correctly (how often are pump failures reported?)
b Accumulator not working correctly (there is a new 75 bar original Toyota unit installed- expensive part, so chances are that this unit is good..but with the higher pressures the pump has to perform better)
c Traction/ABS sensors at wheels not working… but this might trigger ABS/VSC-Trac lights only
d electronic glitch? Wiring issues, computer problem etc .
[-Edit: Comment from Auseeker :
e Problem with the black box /ABS VSC 'computer'...would trigger the symptoms I have]
Questions
-Please comment on my points above
- What is your assumption of the primary problem in the system?
(a Pump not able to provide the pressure despite the pump turning?
b accumulator not working, c ABS sensors malfunctioning at wheel, d electrical glitch
- Do you think I could solve the issues with buying a new brake booster unit?
Thanks for all your help
As of March 27 after installing the new brake pump accumulator on my 2003 T4R
I experienced some weird things
Key in the ‘ignition on’ position (no engine start) is leading to one of the two modes….
The more I am repeating this exercise the more dominant B becomes meaning A is happening only very rarely (maybe one out of 10)
A)
VCS/TRAC/ABS/BRAKE alarm light issue:
All 4 warning lights come up but no alarm sound and brake motor does not run..
During test drive I am still having good braking power.
B)
VCS/TRAC/ABS/BRAKE alarm light PLUS alarm sound issue
All 4 warning lights come and alarm sound!
Brake pump motor runs non stop.
In addition in B I have the sighing/wining noise coming from the side of the brake booster unit
(see/hear video)
What do the VCS/TRAC/ABS/BRAKE alarm lights mean?
I simply don’t know for sure what the lights mean.
If the single lights come on if could mean:
1 Brake alarm light…. If this light comes on solely then it could be emergency brake on or low
Brake fluid (if it stays on when the emergency brake is released)
2 VSC/TRAC alarm light might be coming on as a pair (at least I have not seen the ASC /Trac light coming on as a single light, same for Trac off
3 ABS alarm light… I don’t think I ever saw that light come on single… but it might come on single if there is a specific problem with the ABS?
4 All lights come on at once
It could be that all theses lights and the alarm sound come on if the brake pressure is not reached
(if brake pressure not reached/ ABS VSC/Trac will also come on)
If the ABS or VSC/Trac has a problem…. My guess is they come on separately (I once had the VSC/Trac light up separately) . Maybe the car can still be driven in an emergency but the alarm will be so obvious that it is clear that car needs service
5 All lights and Alarm Sound come on all at once:
I am not sure what the difference it make between 4 and 5 (alarm sound added to the mix)
Maybe this is a higher alarm and driving the car is now dangerous
What might trigger the alarm?
1 There is a physical problem causing the pressure not be built correctly
a Pump not working correctly (how often are pump failures reported?)
b Accumulator not working correctly (there is a new 75 bar original Toyota unit installed- expensive part, so chances are that this unit is good..but with the higher pressures the pump has to perform better)
c Traction/ABS sensors at wheels not working… but this might trigger ABS/VSC-Trac lights only
d electronic glitch? Wiring issues, computer problem etc .
[-Edit: Comment from Auseeker :
e Problem with the black box /ABS VSC 'computer'...would trigger the symptoms I have]
Questions
-Please comment on my points above
- What is your assumption of the primary problem in the system?
(a Pump not able to provide the pressure despite the pump turning?
b accumulator not working, c ABS sensors malfunctioning at wheel, d electrical glitch
- Do you think I could solve the issues with buying a new brake booster unit?
Thanks for all your help
Attachments
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AuSeeker
Elite Member
I can't respond to your questions...BUT the one thing not mentioned being an issue would be the "Black Box" ABS control module/computer on the side of the master cylinder, if it's going/gone bad it would cause all of the issues and lights you have IMHO.
Edit: I don't recall and without reading this entire topic...have you checked for trouble codes, being that this is a ABS issue you need to make sure the device to read the codes will do ABS codes not all OBDII readers will read ABS codes?
Edit: I don't recall and without reading this entire topic...have you checked for trouble codes, being that this is a ABS issue you need to make sure the device to read the codes will do ABS codes not all OBDII readers will read ABS codes?
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werminghausen
New member
Thanks Auseeker,
very helpful,
I added your point (black box) to my list.
Is this black box available as a separate unit...or better but the entire
Booster unit from Toyota new ($1400).
As for the OSBII codes. I cannot read these codes properly with my instrument.
It probably messes up things on top - see posts 52 -56.
What code reader tool would be best in order to read the ABS codes?
Thanks, Martin
very helpful,
I added your point (black box) to my list.
Is this black box available as a separate unit...or better but the entire
Booster unit from Toyota new ($1400).
As for the OSBII codes. I cannot read these codes properly with my instrument.
It probably messes up things on top - see posts 52 -56.
What code reader tool would be best in order to read the ABS codes?
Thanks, Martin
AuSeeker
Elite Member
I don't know if the black box is available separately or not new, you can probably find a use one if you dare to try....BUT be sure the "numbers" on the side of the box are exactly the same as they are on yours, I recall someone on this forum replacing theirs with a used one and the numbers were different which didn't work and he had to get another used one with matching numbers, it did solve his issues, can't recall what they were.
There are many OBDII scanners/readers/dongles out there that will read the ABS codes just be sure they will read the codes, I can't recommend a particular one to get, I would just do a internet search and get one that suits what you need and at your price point.
There are many OBDII scanners/readers/dongles out there that will read the ABS codes just be sure they will read the codes, I can't recommend a particular one to get, I would just do a internet search and get one that suits what you need and at your price point.
Second on getting an ABS capable code reader/scanner. Harbor Freight should have something that will read your ABS code.
Did not catch if you replaced pressure sensor.
2003-2005 Toyota Pressure Sensor 89639-30100 | Camelback Toyota Parts
Did not catch if you replaced pressure sensor.
2003-2005 Toyota Pressure Sensor 89639-30100 | Camelback Toyota Parts
werminghausen
New member
Hi SocalSam,
I still have an older OBD2 code reader, a wifi device, but it does not show ABS codes.
OBD seems to be for engine analysis only... so a ABS reading would be an add on? (sorry I don't understand the internals of these various devices).
Here is one that claims to read ABS codes: OTC Tools 3208 OBD II & ABS Scan Tool
https://www.amazon.com/OTC-3208-Enh...=obd2+scaanner+for+abs,automotive,126&sr=1-20
Would this reader from Amazon be the correct one to rear ABS as it says on the label?
I did not replace the pressure sensor at the booster unit. Is it recommended to change?
If the sensor is not working correctly then of course there is turmoil as "the pressure" might be never reached as much as the pump tries.
Best, Martin
I still have an older OBD2 code reader, a wifi device, but it does not show ABS codes.
OBD seems to be for engine analysis only... so a ABS reading would be an add on? (sorry I don't understand the internals of these various devices).
Here is one that claims to read ABS codes: OTC Tools 3208 OBD II & ABS Scan Tool
https://www.amazon.com/OTC-3208-Enh...=obd2+scaanner+for+abs,automotive,126&sr=1-20
Would this reader from Amazon be the correct one to rear ABS as it says on the label?
I did not replace the pressure sensor at the booster unit. Is it recommended to change?
If the sensor is not working correctly then of course there is turmoil as "the pressure" might be never reached as much as the pump tries.
Best, Martin
werminghausen
New member
I am just curious:
Who of you thinks that my brake problems would be entirely solved with exchanging the entire unit Toyota 47050-60080 Brake Booster Assy, W/Master Cylinder, $1346.81?
Please write your honest opinions.
Best, Martin
47050-60080 - Toyota Parts Deal
Who of you thinks that my brake problems would be entirely solved with exchanging the entire unit Toyota 47050-60080 Brake Booster Assy, W/Master Cylinder, $1346.81?
Please write your honest opinions.
Best, Martin
47050-60080 - Toyota Parts Deal
AuSeeker
Elite Member
I don't know if all of your issues would be solved...but it should eliminate any issues with the master cylinder assembly as long as it's installed and bleed correctly, unfortunately the ABS system not only relies on the master cylinder assembly but also input from the speed sensors as well.
At this point I would check for ABS codes, the reader you posted above should work for that and then proceed from there.
At this point I would check for ABS codes, the reader you posted above should work for that and then proceed from there.
OBDII is different from ABS and SRS systems so check before buying. Some examples of ABS system codes would be C0040 and C1223. Google them to get definition and possible fixes. You seem to be mechanically inclined and more curious than most so I would invest in a better scanner.
Unplug pressure sensor and see if anything changes. Do this where you can safely test brake system. ABS capable scanner will read pressure sensor issue.
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werminghausen
New member
Thanks Auseeker, I am getting this cheaper reader and try to find the ABS codes.
Yes I understand that the speed sensors are involved in the ABS function...but they are typically more robust but who knows....
Do you suspect- for instance- the speed sensors have an issue? Would they would trigger the same alarm that I am experiencing?
Martin
Yes I understand that the speed sensors are involved in the ABS function...but they are typically more robust but who knows....
Do you suspect- for instance- the speed sensors have an issue? Would they would trigger the same alarm that I am experiencing?
Martin
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werminghausen
New member
Thanks Sam, unplugging the pressure switch would make the pump /accumulator operate 'blind' as the pressure sensor is acting as the pressure regulator. The old meachnical pressure regulators were integrated in the pump and very robust. An electrical sensor is more prone to failure.
In case the existing pressure sensor is not working: If i unplug the sensor there would be the same result as if I unplugged it.
I'll try this out.
How do you know I am looking around for a Mercedes G300 wagon? (...simply because an old Mercedes is bullet proof to most of the issues I see with Toyota.....)
Don't get me wrong... I like Toyota but as the cars are getting old there are these electronic gremlins that I don't like very much.
Martin
In case the existing pressure sensor is not working: If i unplug the sensor there would be the same result as if I unplugged it.
I'll try this out.
How do you know I am looking around for a Mercedes G300 wagon? (...simply because an old Mercedes is bullet proof to most of the issues I see with Toyota.....)
Don't get me wrong... I like Toyota but as the cars are getting old there are these electronic gremlins that I don't like very much.
Martin
Had not idea you were looking at a G wagon. Hopefully it is an old one which will be a lot simpler and better for having less electronic gizmos. The reason I recommend against them is you seem to want to understand all aspects of a vehicle. As a current Mercedes owner and member of two Merc forums, understanding how everything works is simply not possible. Most electronics are operated by modules connected via CANBUS. Most modules are locked to VIN and require SDS programming which is dealer level. I own a 2005 AMG C55 and try to do as much maintenance as I can. I find our 4Runners to be simple in comparison.
