Certified pre-owned suspension question

[rileyb76]

Guys,
I'm coming from an '06 limited 4wd to a '10 limited 4wd. The Toyota dealership I bought it from (out of state) had it listed as a Toyota certified pre-owned. I got the Toyota certified pre-owned cards in the mail last week.
Anyways, I freaking love this truck! Much bigger.

However, I have a question about the suspension and excuse my non-technical jargon. If I turn the radio off, and drive slow over some bumps etc, I can hear a rattle from what I'm guessing is suspension. It sounds like it is coming from whichever tire is going over the bump. It is definitely noticeable compared to my wife's '11 SR5 2wd.

Is this normal for the X-REAS? Something sound like it needs greasing?
If I run it by my local Toyota dealer, would they be on the hook for any repairs if it turns out to be something? It supposedly had the 160pt. inspection.

I'll try to make a movie this afternoon and post to youtube because this probably sounds generic.

Thanks for any input guys!

 

[rigtec]

"...Is this normal for the X-REAS? Something sound like it needs greasing?
If I run it by my local Toyota dealer, would they be on the hook for any repairs if it turns out to be something? It supposedly had the 160pt. inspection..."

Hi rileyb,

You didn't give the mileage on the vehicle which may be relevant to a point, but not essential. The main thing is to come to a point where you've isolated, and identified the sound e.g., left front, right front, metallic sound... when going over a bumpy pavement, etc. Your X-REAS system requires no (zero) maintenance, but for an occasional 'visual inspection' of the shock's body 'near the shaft' for hydraulic fluid leaks.

What I might do first would be to attempt to duplicate (or create a fair facsimile) of the sound by jouncing the vehicle up and down, or manually shaking/tapping the suspension linkages to get a relative idea of sound's location. You could also go to a bumpy street and have a second party walk along side of the truck and try to hear where the sound is coming from; very difficult to isolate certain sounds from behind the wheel!

Another thing that I might do (using a bright flashlight) would be to inspect all of the rubber bushings on the stabilizer bars & links, shocks, upper and lower control arms... for extreme wear; I suspect that if you do a "visual inspect", you'll find a clue!

Cheers

 

[rileyb76]

Thanks for the reply rigtec.

I took it to the dealer and they found out what the issue was. The hydraulic hoses were not hooked up to the front shocks (XREAS)!

Since I bought this 4runner as a certified pre-owned from an out of state dealer, my local dealer says I should send the out of state dealer the paperwork and ask for them to pick up the tab. Tax and everything for the complete XREAS suspension rebuild is around $3300.

The Toyota mechanic says you cannot simply hook these hoses back up and it just work. It requires a complete rebuild from a new XREAS system.

I let the out of state salesman know about it tonight and he said they should've seen this during their inspection before it got marked as certified pre-owned. He is going to get his manager to call me and my local dealer tomorrow. We'll see what happens. Hopefully I won't get shafted.

 

[rileyb76]

Pics...

 

[wfo9]

This is just more evidence that the CPO program is total BS. They don't inspect crap. They just raise the price.

I looked at a CPO 4Runner at one point and the thing was in horrible shape. Beat to crap with all types of maintenance issues lurking. I could not believe it was CPO and that clued me into the scam. Some dealers may actually do the full inspection... but clearly not all.

Good luck getting it fixed. It's totally Toyotas responsibility to fix it. Their lame ass dealer certified it as "Toyota" certified....Not your problem.

 

[MeefZah]

I wonder if the PO had a suspension lift that he pulled off when he traded it in, and just shoved the OEM shit back under there.

No other reason I can think of to disconnect those.

 

[Americas High Five]

as a Toyota CPO you should have 12 month bumper to bumper so this should be covered 100% (minus a small deducible I believe of $50?)

 

[NuclearN8]

So...I am a firm believer tha information/ knowlege is power... (see links below the paragraph)

The CPO warranty might not cover this.. there are different levels of CPO, three I believe if I remember correctly, regardless you should not pay more than $50 if it is covered. Your current dealer is getting paid by the CPO insurance company to make th repairs, your deductible on the policy (again if it is covered) is $50. There is no reason to ever talk to the selling dealer again and quite frankly, I wouldn't considering their lack of attention to detail. Let them be dead to you (unless of course this isn't covered by your CPO plan and then I'd drive the vehicle right back up into their lot blasting the horn and flashing the lights raising hell until I got the service and attention I felt like the matter warranted).

3 levels of CPO: Limited, Gold, Platinum: Used Car Vehicle Service Agreements | Vehicle Service Agreements for Used Toyota Vehicles
(Gold and Platinum add the suspension system coverage). You were likely only sold the "Limited" version since dealers are slimeballs ... especially used car salesmen.

Used Car Warranty | Extended Warranty for Used Toyota Vehicles (notice suspension system isn't specifically listed or excluded in the Limited version)
http://www.toyotacertified.com/ebrochures/toyota_certified.pdf

here's a list of what they're suppose to check to make it CPO: 160 Point Inspection | Certified Used Toyota

LAstly, if you didn't fill out the survery yet for the selling dealer and require them to make it right... just tell the GM you're going to give them all 1 out of 10's on the survery and provide explicit details to corportate about your experience of incompeteance and borderline fraud (saying the inspected something they didn't).. this outta get their attention enough to make it right.
those surverys determine the board of governor winners which in turn determine hundred of thousands of dollars in bonus money for a dealer at years end...

 

[rileyb76]

Thanks N8. Knowing I could be on the hook for 3K just does not give me the warm fuzzies! Especially buying a CPO!

I called Toyota Corporate and got a case started. They really didn't alleviate any concerns either. Basically the guy said that I would need to speak to the out of state customer relations manager to see how to handle it as they don't really interfere with used stuff. Recalls yes, but used car issues no. Is he blowing smoke?

Also, if the dealer missed this on the inspection, what else did they miss?

 

[KingPrat]

I've seen this with used cars before. I was looking at an 08 Sport and was walking around it with the salesman, and mentioned that it was supposed to have a rear spoiler.

He assured me that it wasn't, and it was an option to delete it.

Then I pointed out the clips and the lack of a third brake light. He brought it up to his manager and then told me the truck wouldn't be available for a couple weeks. :doh:


High profit margin on used cars, so they try to get them in and out of dealerships quickly. Stuff gets overlooked a lot! Hopefully they sort out your issues at no cost. You shouldn't have to foot that bill...

 

[ST1FLER]

Thanks N8. Knowing I could be on the hook for 3K just does not give me the warm fuzzies! Especially buying a CPO!

rip that shit out and put in a real suspension..... FOR LESS

 

[DKFTPNYC]

I have also unfortunately received the worse end of buying a CPO vehicle. An extended warranty is only good if the darn dealers will acknowledge a problem and fix it, which they never did (previous car). But this is definitely something they'd have to make right. Good luck!

 

[NuclearN8]

Thanks N8. Knowing I could be on the hook for 3K just does not give me the warm fuzzies! Especially buying a CPO!

I called Toyota Corporate and got a case started. They really didn't alleviate any concerns either. Basically the guy said that I would need to speak to the out of state customer relations manager to see how to handle it as they don't really interfere with used stuff. Recalls yes, but used car issues no. Is he blowing smoke?

Also, if the dealer missed this on the inspection, what else did they miss?

Toyota Corporate doesn't care, this is true... The selling dealer should care A LOT if you have not filled out the survey yet (hold this over their head to correct any deficiencies with the sale). The selling dealer essentially committed fraud (they sold you a vehicle that said passed inspection when in reality any schmuck that looks at that vehicle or drove it in service would realize it wasn't right). IF you already filled out the survey (some dealers politely ask customers to do this before leaving the dealer) then your only ture recourse is to work with the selling dealer to do the right thing... Generally speaking you catch more bees with honey so being polite and professional is the best bet to get what you want... However, do not be afraid to let them know you have evidence that will win any litigation.

To elaborate I had a similiar experience when we bought our used 2007 4Runner. great vehicle was happy as a clam until 3 days later I took it to stretch its legs a bit on a forrest gravel road.. along the way I heard all kinds of rubbing at full lock. Turns out, the dealer sold me the vehicle with oversized tires on it (1 sidewall size up to be exact) and I didn't notice since we only test drove it on pavement. I drove back to the dealer (called the salesman first to let them know I was coming in) and said you can either buy it back and give me a full refund OR you can buy me a new set of 5 OEM size tires of my choosing. They gladly picked the latter as I had not yet filled out the survey and they realized they had missed it on the CPO inspection... this technically means the dealer committed odometer fraud when they sold me vehicle (a case I would have easily won during litigation) which was against the paper the dealer sign during the sale stating the odometer is correct (no way this was possible with an upsize tire on it as the odometer reads less than the actual vehicle mileage).

For your scenario, I would leverage you and your families safety and make them aware you're not afraid to 1) give them an atrocious survey on the sale of the vehicle if not fixed 2) inform them you've opened a case with Toyota Corporate so they are aware of issue 3) pursue litigation regarding the failure to properly inspect the vehicle per the CPO 160 pt inspection.

good luck buddy.

If it's worth anything, the XREAS will fail sooner or later... they put it on the Limited models because these models are typically the mall crawlers of the lineup with limited offroad use (articulation) to limit sway (offroad ya want sway/ suspension travel)... you can probably get just as good if not better ride by switching to some bilsteins, keeping the stock coils, and switching over your sway bar bushings to poly. This will cost ya about $500 in parts... Ya gotta weigh the cost benefit of everything... maybe give the dealer this option during your discussion since this would be cheaper for them in terms of making it right by you. (the suspension system likely isn't covered by the CPO warranty you have, they just missed it on the inspection and because of that, they sold the vehicle overpriced with a CPO warranty. I was once told the Limited CPO warranty costs the dealer about $500 per unit (they typically mark up CPO vehicles 1000-1500).. so there is quite a bit of profit there for them to cut in to make the sale right by you.... [MENTION=62757]chudiddy[/MENTION] can confirm the above in terms of CPO/ extended warranty profits seen by the dealer.

Lastly, when contacting the selling dealer do not ask to speak with the salesman.. just ask for the used car manager, if he doesn't make it right, go to the GM. The used car salesman has already failed you in some aspect. If they agree to make it right and fix it, demand only their most experienced Technician work on your vehicle (hopefully this wasn't the same douche that missed the XREAS not being connected)...

 

[chudiddy]

I was once told the Limited CPO warranty costs the dealer about $500 per unit (they typically mark up CPO vehicles 1000-1500).. so there is quite a bit of profit there for them to cut in to make the sale right by you.... [MENTION=62757]chudiddy[/MENTION] can confirm the above in terms of CPO/ extended warranty profits seen by the dealer.

This is in fact true. It costs us $450 for certification.

The CPO warranty will not fix this issue with the suspension and the OP should 100% take it up with the selling dealer for them to fix it. However, using the "Survey" as leverage most likely will not work since he probably won't even get a survey from Toyota. At least in PA, when we sell a CPO vehicle, the customer never gets a survey from Toyota. I would think writing a nasty review on YELP would have more of an affect then a bad survey.

I would agree to take the nicer approach and see if they will do something to rectify this, perhaps offer you a enough of a refund to upgrade the suspension yourself. Otherwise, pursue the call with corporate and get the claim escalated.

Good luck.

 

[rileyb76]

Thanks for all the information guys.
N8, I did receive a survey from Toyota entitled "Your Recent Certified Purchase Experience", but I have not completed it yet.

The salesman let me know that his manager has looked at the quote from my local dealer and the manager has been in contact with them. I have not heard from them yet though. My local service advisor that helped me yesterday and knows the scoop, is off today and will be back tomorrow. That may be the hold up.
[MENTION=62757]chudiddy[/MENTION] that is disappointing to hear that this will not be covered.

 

[Jetboy]

FWIW, I've had 2 Lexus CPOs. The current one is a '10 RX350. After having it a few months I started hearing a noise - rear wheel bearing. Replaced no questions asked. Then my wife was hearing a noise on bumps. Rear shock was bad. CPO replaced both rear shocks - said it was recommended - plus trailing arm bushings. No charge. I had assumed the CPO was basically the same at Toyota. I bought this one at a Toyota dealership. Anyway, I would expect this to be covered. It's not worn out, it's broken. And it should have been identified at the inspection.

 

[rileyb76]

Update - the out of state service manager called my local service advisor today. The service manager also spoke with the master tech at my local dealer as well. Anyways, I'm taking the truck to the dealer next Tuesday because they want to inspect and make sure that the XREAS is indeed toast before shelling out $. They mentioned that it could have been capped off "correctly", and thus still fully functional?

I am not sure if the senior tech was the guy I talked to earlier in the week at the dealership. Whoever he was painted a pretty grim picture about it. I even heard the phrase "somebody got'cha". How comforting ha.

So far everyone has been really nice and professional, so thats a plus.

 

[cutty01]

Update - the out of state service manager called my local service advisor today. The service manager also spoke with the master tech at my local dealer as well. Anyways, I'm taking the truck to the dealer next Tuesday because they want to inspect and make sure that the XREAS is indeed toast before shelling out $. They mentioned that it could have been capped off "correctly", and thus still fully functional?

If the xreas was disconnected at the correct union fittings and with all 4 wheels off the ground then they can be reconnected without issue, as the unions fittings are self sealing. If they were removed at the fittings closest to the shock then there would have been loss of fluid and yes, they would be practically toast. See the instructions in this PDF for more information. I just had mine disconnected according to the instructions in the PDF so I could sell the xreas unit or reattach when I sell the truck.

I agree with one of the earlier posts and if the system does need replacing, then have them replace the shocks with Bilstein 5100s or the 6112/5160 combo for a lot less (or suspension of your choice). With many of the reputable aftermarket suspensions you will see better performance and you now have the option to add a lift .

Also you can usually find people who just upgraded their stock LE suspension and are giving their xreas away for practically nothing. Myself included.

 

[rileyb76]

If the xreas was disconnected at the correct union fittings and with all 4 wheels off the ground then they can be reconnected without issue, as the unions fittings are self sealing. If they were removed at the fittings closest to the shock then there would have been loss of fluid and yes, they would be practically toast. See the instructions in this PDF for more information. I just had mine disconnected according to the instructions in the PDF so I could sell the xreas unit or reattach when I sell the truck.

I agree with one of the earlier posts and if the system does need replacing, then have them replace the shocks with Bilstein 5100s or the 6112/5160 combo for a lot less (or suspension of your choice). With many of the reputable aftermarket suspensions you will see better performance and you now have the option to add a lift .

Also you can usually find people who just upgraded their stock LE suspension and are giving their xreas away for practically nothing. Myself included.

Very interesting, thanks.
How will the tech check xreas to make sure its not compromised?

Ever since all this went down, I've been reading up on the Bilstein 5100's and like what I have read. If xreas is toast, maybe I could talk them into installing these, all while keeping it CPO.... and possibly even throwing in a smart key fob! Got quoted $350 for one.

 

[cutty01]

Very interesting, thanks.
If xreas is toast, maybe I could talk them into installing these, all while keeping it CPO.... and possibly even throwing in a smart key fob! Got quoted $350 for one.

The best outcome for you would be to take the cash equivalent of installing a new xreas suspension (I think you said ~$3k) and spend it on what you want. The purchase and labor to install of 4x 5100s will be about $1,100. A little more if you swap out the springs.