"Choose from 3 Drives: 4x2, part-time 4WD, full-time 4WD"

[ProspectiveBuyer]

Lol, I was enjoying minivans for many years :

I enjoy driving the Miata, it handles wonderfully on the twisty roads in the Bay Area. I could understand enjoying driving a powerful truck.

But driving a minivan?!

 

[wfo9]

I said: RELIABILIY ASIDE, the GC is superior. True or not?

Perception is everything so, of course, I'm gonna go with the 4Runner, but it is very sad that Americans are so eager to ridicule American-made cars. Every manufacturer has problems.

Mark my words, just like Apple rendered Sony irrelevant, the American car makers (Tesla!) will conquer the world.

I'm all about American made... I own 3 GM products (a corvette, a Holden monaro (Chevy SS), a GMC sierra 1500). I think they are all superior in their class and the best value in the market (in their respective classes). All have been extremely reliable and have the best power trains in the industry, IMHO. I'm a huge GM fan at heart, always have been and always will be. I grew up wrenching on SBCs, so its hard not to want everything I own to have one. However, for off-road, I'm a Toyota guy.

If GM ends up producing this colorado concept zr2. I might have to give it a try.

BTW, the GC has some neat gadgets, but I'm not a fan. Small (really small). Its a car pretending to be a SUV. Not what you want out in the sticks or up in the rocks. You can't imagine the beating your truck will take until you go out and take it on some real adventures. That will make you understand why body on frame is necessary, trust me on that. The doors would no longer shut on the GC if it was used like many 4runners are. Last trip I had my daughter on, she started to panic and kept saying how do the wheels not just fall of this truck doing this to it. I said, It's a Yota honey, you have nothing to worry about. I later heard her telling one of her friends, my dads truck is like a tank it can go through anything and not break. She is pretty clueless about cars.. but she got the general idea. Would not have been the same outcome in a GC.

 

[Jeremy556]

I said: RELIABILIY ASIDE, the GC is superior. True or not?

Perception is everything so, of course, I'm gonna go with the 4Runner, but it is very sad that Americans are so eager to ridicule American-made cars. Every manufacturer has problems.

Mark my words, just like Apple rendered Sony irrelevant, the American car makers (Tesla!) will conquer the world.

Superior for/at what? Off road capability, it certainly isn't even in the same league. For being a modern station wagon, it is.

Might want to check into where the GJC's platform came from, it isn't the USA.

What exactly makes an auto manufacturer, American? Last I checked they were mostly public companies with global operations.

 

[Jeremy556]

Thanks Jeremy!!! Your picture tells a thousand words that illustrate my point. Quick poll: how many members of the forum would prefer driving Jeremy's vehicle than a 4x2 4Rnr??

I would rather drive one of those to the grocery store and across country than my 4runner, but the Honda won't fare too well on the roads I travel.

 

[NMJack]

I love my 4Runner, but not having it 4x4 doesn't make sense in my books, no offence : )

None taken. :thumb3: I knew I was asking for some blow back with my initial post. Here in Tucson, we have many crappy streets that fill with water and debris during monsoon season. We also have more than our share of drivers who are scarier than your favorite horror movie. Out of state visitors, "snow birds," etc. I've also never seen a town with more road obstacles. I once had to dodge a full size dog house sitting in the middle of the interstate. I don't need 4WD for any of those, but a sturdy vehicle with high ground clearance and some "mass" is strongly preferred. I've driven a good cross section of other types of vehicles as rental cars, and just like a vehicle like the 4Runner much better. Minivans are okay, but I prefer the simplicity of RWD.

 

[1engineer]

But that may be a thing of the past. I thought the American manufacturers have improved A LOT as of late. In particular, Ford has made huge strides in quality. But of course, perception is more important--still most people think that American cars are of lesser quality than Japanese.

Reliability aside, the Grand Cherokee is a better choice than the 4RUnner.

No it's not.
All you have to do is go to a non biased site like truedelta.com and look at the number of garage visits per 100 vehicles. This is the simplest metric out there and the most telling. The 4Runner is among the best. The Jeep is among the worst.

It is not "American vs. Japanese." Chrysler is owned by Fiat which is nowhere near American. Before that they were owned by Germans. The JGC is assembled in North America. Big whoop.

Now let's look at durability. Google "average mileage on 4Runner then do they same for JGC. Amazing difference by almost 100K miles.

Price? Go price a JGC with comparable features to a Limited. Jeep will be higher on list, which is the only way to compare.

Efficiency. About the same overall if you look at all JGC sales versus all 4Runner sales.

Features. Jeep has the 4Runner beat. Unfortunately the vehicle has to be working properly to use all those features. Again, google average time in shop for each vehicle. That's not to say they are not nice though when they work though.

My wife and I went out to a New Year's Eve dinner last night with some close friends. We took their new vehicle which is a 2015 Land Rover Range Rover. Price was right at $100K.
Was it nice inside? You bet. Pretty sure you need a comp sci or at least an EE degree to understand all the features though. Man the sunroof was amazing as was the blue footwell lighting. The vanity and map lights didn't need to be pressed just wave your hand at it. All the features left me pretty much bewildered as to the purpose though. The seats were firm. The ride was nice, about on par with any CUV. Now the supercharger? That was sweet! Was it worth $60K more than the 4Runner? No. The couple we were with admitted that they would never use half the features on their vehicle. My point is if you are gonna go, go big. Don't think that you can get that level of features and luxury on a 4Runner budget (JGC) because you can't.

 

[ProspectiveBuyer]

We are getting the Limited tomorrow! And the main reason is the center differential, not the added luxury.

I have been thinking about it and concluded that it does not make sense to get a part-time 4WD because of the lack of a center diff. Here's why: again, the twisty mountain road in snow or heavy rain. You need increased traction. Can you engage 4WD on a non-Limited 4Runner? No, you can't, because you are on a twisty road and linking the front and real axles will do more harm than good. Handling will become unpredictable. You'd be better off in a cheap Subaru in the mountains in winter!

 

[dhylander]

We are getting the Limited tomorrow! And the main reason is the center differential, not the added luxury.

I have been thinking about it and concluded that it does not make sense to get a part-time 4WD because of the lack of a center diff. Here's why: again, the twisty mountain road in snow or heavy rain. You need increased traction. Can you engage 4WD on a non-Limited 4Runner? No, you can't, because you are on a twisty road and linking the front and real axles will do more harm than good. Handling will become unpredictable. You'd be better off in a cheap Subaru in the mountains in winter!

That was the primary reason I went with the Limited. I also like the look of no running boards, but needed the convenience of them from time to time, so the automatic running boards that can be ordered have worked out well for me.

 

[1engineer]

We are getting the Limited tomorrow! And the main reason is the center differential, not the added luxury.

I have been thinking about it and concluded that it does not make sense to get a part-time 4WD because of the lack of a center diff. Here's why: again, the twisty mountain road in snow or heavy rain. You need increased traction. Can you engage 4WD on a non-Limited 4Runner? No, you can't, because you are on a twisty road and linking the front and real axles will do more harm than good. Handling will become unpredictable. You'd be better off in a cheap Subaru in the mountains in winter!

Congrats on your choice but you have some real misconceptions on 4wd operation. Pleas go back and re read the "How 4wd Works" link in my signature. We can explain it to you but we can't understand it for you. Good luck with your new ride. BTW I use my part time 4wd all the time on slick twisty mountain roads with no detrimental effects.

 

[Jeremy556]

We are getting the Limited tomorrow! And the main reason is the center differential, not the added luxury.

I have been thinking about it and concluded that it does not make sense to get a part-time 4WD because of the lack of a center diff. Here's why: again, the twisty mountain road in snow or heavy rain. You need increased traction. Can you engage 4WD on a non-Limited 4Runner? No, you can't, because you are on a twisty road and linking the front and real axles will do more harm than good. Handling will become unpredictable. You'd be better off in a cheap Subaru in the mountains in winter!

You shouldn't drive in 4wd on DRY PAVEMENT. It is fine to use when the conditions warrant the need for increased traction.

I used to live at 8000 ft in a ski town and would travel over 10K+ ft passes every day. Part time 4wd works just fine.

 

[flighht2k5]

We are getting the Limited tomorrow! And the main reason is the center differential, not the added luxury.



I have been thinking about it and concluded that it does not make sense to get a part-time 4WD because of the lack of a center diff. Here's why: again, the twisty mountain road in snow or heavy rain. You need increased traction. Can you engage 4WD on a non-Limited 4Runner? No, you can't, because you are on a twisty road and linking the front and real axles will do more harm than good. Handling will become unpredictable. You'd be better off in a cheap Subaru in the mountains in winter!

You can drive a part time case in 4wd on snowy roads with no issue.

 

[ProspectiveBuyer]

Congrats on your choice but you have some real misconceptions on 4wd operation. Pleas go back and re read the "How 4wd Works" link in my signature. We can explain it to you but we can't understand it for you. Good luck with your new ride. BTW I use my part time 4wd all the time on slick twisty mountain roads with no detrimental effects.

I read the article again. So we're talking about part time 4WD: the front & rear axles are rigidly linked (SR5 case).

Can you point out the error in the following:

Consider mountain switchbacks, where you basically do 180 degree turns. The difference in the distance traveled by the front & rear wheels, in the same amount of time, is very large. Engaging 4WD on dry pavement will put severe stress on tires & vehicle.

If the switchback is slippery, there will be no stress on the tires etc, because the tires can slip, so no harm done. But that's not the point: what you want in slippery conditions is improved traction, and a rigidly linked front & rear axle cannot help you on slippery switchbacks. In fact, it makes things worse.

 

[wfo9]

I think you are getting things confused a bit.

If you are talking about driving aggressively at speed on slick road (what someone might attempt in a rally car, wrx...), then yes AWD is much better than a locked center part time system.

If you are talking about simply driving at posted speed limits. A part time system is just fine to use in almost every scenario where it might be needed. As long as the conditions are consistent. The real advantage of the AWD (when driving at the speed limit...) is when the pavement keeps varying between dry and slick. It allows you not to have to think about it....

For the switchback use case, yes the AWD would be better if the turns are really tight. However, the general rule of thumb I use. if the turn can be taken at 30mph dry, then the locked center won't even really be at play. Even if it is tighter than that (and you are on a slick snow covered surface) it will still be fine as long as you slow down enough and don't attempt to do a rally car turn.

I don't drive in the snow or ice much with my t4r, but I'm sure Jeremy556 can tell you from living in it....

Again. like I stated before, this concern about binding a part time system on dry pavement is greatly exaggerated. It can happen, but only when going really slow. It is simply not possible at any sort of speed.

Locked center is nothing like a locked axle diff. Those create all types of interesting handling characteristics when not going straight. It can actually be quite a bit of fun, but not safe at all.

 

[1engineer]

I read the article again. So we're talking about part time 4WD: the front & rear axles are rigidly linked (SR5 case).

Can you point out the error in the following:

Consider mountain switchbacks, where you basically do 180 degree turns. The difference in the distance traveled by the front & rear wheels, in the same amount of time, is very large. Engaging 4WD on dry pavement will put severe stress on tires & vehicle.

If the switchback is slippery, there will be no stress on the tires etc, because the tires can slip, so no harm done. But that's not the point: what you want in slippery conditions is improved traction, and a rigidly linked front & rear axle cannot help you on slippery switchbacks. In fact, it makes things worse.

Again, you are wrong. We have TRAC also which will brake the slipping wheels. I am really trying to be nice so get what you want and think whatever you like. Yor posts have shown you know nothing yet you want to argue. So far in this thread there have been posts by three engineers and numerous guys who know what they are talking about.

 

[02SE]

We are getting the Limited tomorrow! And the main reason is the center differential, not the added luxury.

I have been thinking about it and concluded that it does not make sense to get a part-time 4WD because of the lack of a center diff. Here's why: again, the twisty mountain road in snow or heavy rain. You need increased traction. Can you engage 4WD on a non-Limited 4Runner? No, you can't, because you are on a twisty road and linking the front and real axles will do more harm than good. Handling will become unpredictable. You'd be better off in a cheap Subaru in the mountains in winter!

Congratulations, you'll likely be happy with your decision.

But regarding the reason for not wanting the Part-Time 4wd; you can use it in any conditions where wheel slip prevents binding in the driveline. I use my Part-Time 4wd on twisty snow covered roads, without issue. In fact that's my main use and reason for keeping my 4Runner, is it's ability to keep going in snowy Mountain Road conditions.

If the switchback is slippery, there will be no stress on the tires etc, because the tires can slip, so no harm done. But that's not the point: what you want in slippery conditions is improved traction, and a rigidly linked front & rear axle cannot help you on slippery switchbacks. In fact, it makes things worse.

The notion that Part-Time 4wd won't help you on slippery switchbacks, is baffling. It has been helping me in those conditions for nearly 30 years now.

If you have consistent wheel slip in rain, then you can use Part-Time 4wd. But I'd also take a close look at your tires for a better wet weather replacement.

I had a Landcruiser with Full-Time 4wd. It was a nice vehicle, and the Full-Time 4wd meant I didn't have to shift in and out of 4wd, as you sometimes have to with Part-Time 4wd. But I don't consider moving the transfer case shifter as needed to be a hardship.

Ultimately, the convenience of having Full-Time 4wd, was outweighed by the fact that my Part-Time 4wd 4Runner was just more fun to drive.

But if having 4wd you never have to think about is the goal, then the Full-Time 4wd Limited is the way to go.

 

[wfo9]

Again, you are wrong. We have TRAC also which will brake the slipping wheels. I am really trying to be nice so get what you want and think whatever you like. Yor posts have shown you know nothing yet you want to argue. So far in this thread there have been posts by three engineers and numerous guys who know what they are talking about.

I don't think he is trying to argue, just trying to understand the "why". There is conflicting information if you just take everything at face value and have not experienced for yourself. I myself was very confused about binding with a part time system until I got out and drove with it on dry pavement. Much of the information is dumbed down or filled with marketing hype.

 

[1engineer]

I don't think he is trying to argue, just trying to understand the "why". There is conflicting information if you just take everything at face value and have not experienced for yourself. I myself was very confused about binding with a part time system until I got out and drove with it on dry pavement. Much of the information is dumbed down or filled with marketing hype.

Probably. Sorry [MENTION=118518]ProspectiveBuyer[/MENTION].

 

[ProspectiveBuyer]

I don't think he is trying to argue, just trying to understand the "why". There is conflicting information if you just take everything at face value and have not experienced for yourself. I myself was very confused about binding with a part time system until I got out and drove with it on dry pavement. Much of the information is dumbed down or filled with marketing hype.

Exactly. Thanks.

 

[LandCruiser]

Full time 4x4, AT, 40F-60R split (up to 80R under acceleration), with the ability to lock the center and rear diffs is the best drivetrain. Transmission needs a heavy duty torque converter.

Everything else is an EPA fuel economy compromise.

 

[cjacob316]

But that may be a thing of the past. I thought the American manufacturers have improved A LOT as of late. In particular, Ford has made huge strides in quality. But of course, perception is more important--still most people think that American cars are of lesser quality than Japanese.

Reliability aside, the Grand Cherokee is a better choice than the 4RUnner.

Actually the exact opposite. I've owned 3 jeeps ('95 cherokee and 2x '00 grand cherokees) and they never gave me problems outside the normal wear and tear. Now they are terrible, I have a friend who owns a shop, he tells me all the time "be glad you didn't get new jeeps because we get them in here all the time, they just keep breaking." It's not just Japanese vs American, Nissan is terrible. I've read reviews lately on their cars for my wife, sure they put a lot of new neat electronic goodies in them, but they constantly break so you can't use them.

Toyota has been known for reliability as long as I can remember and they seem to only be widening the gap in some areas.